[fromthecloud]

Any one here join a fraternity or sorority during their college years...now or in the past? And which one?

I just pledged Sigma Alpha Epsilon and was wondering who all here were members of Greek organizations...

[gorickey]

No, I was/am too much of a geek to be a Greek....see my point?

Independents UNITE!

[Captain Obvious]

I did. I rushed first semester freshman year. It's not for everyone and then for those people its narrowed down by the kind of scene the Greek system has developed into at each particular school. Some schools are too Greek for some people and some are too tame for what people expect.

I had fun.

[fat mac moron]

TKE!

My best friend went Sig Ep, loved every minute of it.

[sworthy]

Beta Theta Pi. I'm a sophomore at the Delta Epsilon chapter.

[calamar1]

Originally posted by fromthecloud:
Any one here join a fraternity or sorority during their college years...now or in the past? And which one?

i am a Psi Upsilon brother from the chapter at RPI, actually (an alumnus, that is). we were kind of an unusual house, though given that we were co-ed. greek life is not always the stereotype from 'animal house'. it is, occasionally, of course, but it can be a lot more than that, too. depends partly on what you put into it. hope it works well for you.

[Montanan]

Sigma Chi (the Beta Rho chapter, here at Montana State).

It was an experience that I'm very, very glad I had -- but it's definitely not for everyone.

The SAE's were across the street from us, and we (justifiably) scorned them ...

[7Macfreak]

i SO regret not joining the ATO (alpha tao omega) at the college i just transferred from. i did party with them a few times tho. coolest bunch of guys EVER.

[Tristrami]

Hey, if you need to pay for friendships, a so-called "greek" organization is a time-honored college way of doing it...

[UNTeMac]

Phi Mu Alpha...Gamma Theta Chapter
www.sinfonia.org

Long live Sinfonia!

[Joshua]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
Phi Mu Alpha...Gamma Theta Chapter
www.sinfonia.org

Long live Sinfonia!

Heh. OAS AAS LLS.

Phi Mu Alpha, Zeta Beta chapter.

I'd be surprised if there aren't a few more Sinfonian's lurking about.

[Mastrap]

Surely not "Greek".




I take it the meaning of the word doesn't survive transatlantic travel.

[Zimmerman]

Seriously, the Greek system sucks unless you enjoyed the social/party scene in highschool. I have been around WAAAY to many frat boys who get hammered ever other night, have to put up with an nth degree more noise than even dorm people do... the greek system leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. If you are a smart person at all, stay away. Unless you like getting drunk and getting arrested and having cruel pranks pulled on you...

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Zimmerman:
Seriously, the Greek system sucks unless you enjoyed the social/party scene in highschool. If you are a smart person at all, stay away.

Didn't i tell you this was coming cloud?



Yeah, yeah we hear that from people. Yet I went to a state university, so no ivy league benefits for us, and of the guys I went in with one is at Harvard for an MBA, one at Marquette Law, one at American Law, Purdue for an MBA, Georgetown Law, one at IBM, and everyone else graduated and has jobs now. Two of the three girls I dated seriously in college were in sororities. One is now a metallurgical engineer the other is an environmental attorney, not bad for chicks.
My friends and I drank like everyone else on campus, it was considered a party school too, but everyone did well. Most people drink plenty in college either way. I don't think there is much of a correlation between being in a fraternity and doing poorly in school. If you are going to f*ck up with classes you don't need any help.

By the way who the hell enjoyed sitting at home by themselves in highschool instead of going out with friends? I still had fun in college and will do better than average in life. I also have nothing to regret about those years, except maybe one of those chicks, but i missed no part of the college experience.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Surely not "Greek".




I take it the meaning of the word doesn't survive transatlantic travel.

Originally posted by Zimmerman:
the greek system leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

[CaseCom]

I remember going through rush my freshman year. Very strange, like shopping for friends. A couple of frats seemed OK, but all in all I wasn't very excited about the whole thing. Besides, we'd already formed a cool group of friends in my freshman dorm. So I didn't join.

One of the guys in our group joined one, though. We hardly saw him after that. I mean we saw him coming and going but there was always something going on "at the house." Okay. See ya.

I don't know that the Greek system is intrinsically good or bad, though. Like a lot of things, it's mostly what you make of it.

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
One is now a metallurgical engineer the other is an environmental attorney, not bad for chicks.

Yeah, those chicks, every once in a while they'll surprise you.

[Kitschy]

Currently a member of Beta Upsilon Chi, BYX.

http://www.brothersunderchrist.org/

[SeSawaya]

LAMDA LAMDA LAMDA (and Omega Moos)

[rampant]

In case none of you have gotten it so far, "Greek" is a term for a specific HIGHLY GAY type of threesome.

[def H H H]

Nope. Never will. Most (frats) do some good for the school, community and etc., but seriously, a lot of them are just guys drinking and becoming first class slobing idiots. My friend is one and he claims it's rather boring, but he gets free passes to social events. Christ, he does more work for his frat than his actual classes.

[MikeM33]

Never went to college straight out of HS, but had friends that did it the "traditional way", except they lived at home. One friend would get us into some of the Frat parties, but he wasn't an actual member of any of them. I think he did better than many people I knew who did it that way also. The partying is cool and everything but college isn't something that should be one huge party IMHO. Adding that sort of lifestyle to what should be a learning experience for your own future's benefit is like tossing a rattlesnake into a box with a mouse and shaking it up especially if you want the mouse to live.

I did (however) do two years in the US Navy prior to them cracking down on the "hazing" and while it was crazy, it did build character, and I did make many close friends that I couldn't possibly have outside that institution. Most of the whistle blowers were women, but we did have one female in our shop that got into it just like the rest of us had to. When her birthday rolled around, she got pinned down by the whole shop and her (clothed of course) ass smacked with a metal dustpan. Just like everyone else.

After the Navy I started college and I'm very glad I didn't go straight out of HS. I couldn't have possibly succeeded or done well in those crazy "daze". To contrast that though, my parents were willing to pay through the nose so I could live on Campus at California Institute of the Arts so I could study animation. I blew it off because I was too into partying here with my friends. So I totally passed on a free ticket. I guess that's also contributed towards why I take college seriously since I'm paying for it. Plus, my interrests shifted from Animation to 2-D Graphic Design since then also.

Mostly I just think Fraternities and Sororities are sorta pathetic. Do you need to be a member of some exclusive club to get drunk/high/laid? The popularity contest and cliques that were High School ends after High School, no point in dragging it out. Once you're out in the real world, nobody gives a flying that you were the star athelete of the football team or whatever.

MikeM

[nobodybutme]

Partied at them on occasion and even paid a due. I was fined by one for building a giant pyramid with all their furniture in the middle of their giant dance floor after they all passed out up stairs. Actually it was more of a tangled pile of wood, plastic, pleather, and polyester. Apparently, there was a lot of damage to the furniture. Legs of chairs though couch cushions, etc. It was high though. It was about five or six levels. It kind of sucked because one of the guys that helped me was a new brother I think, so I didn't think it would be a big deal. He was loaded though. I think I got him in trouble. Oh well. It seemed funny at the time. No harm meant.

[OwlBoy]

Originally posted by Kitschy:
Currently a member of Beta Upsilon Chi, BYX.

http://www.brothersunderchrist.org/

They need a new site designer

-Owl

[Heady]

Ok, so somebody has to explain a few things to me Namely:

1) What exactly are 'Greek organizations'?
2) Why are they 'greek'?
3) Do their names mean something?
4) Are they specific to the US?

Thanks. As a student from Montreal, I had never heard about such things

-Heady

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by gorickey:
NIndependents UNITE!

Ditto!

Smart people doesnt need to join a fraternities. It's a waste of time IMHO.

[Lerkfish]

I attended college 77-81, so that's decades ago. And, at that time (have no idea if this is still true) at the University of Missouri Columbia, the Greek System was not my cup of tea. I knew some very nice frat guys, but they were by and large the exception.
I was an RA in the dormitory, which helped defray my costs since I had to foot the bill for school, but if that weren't the case, I'd have probably spent two years in the dorm and then moved into an apartment off campus.

The problem with the greek system there at that time was the basic dynamic of forced comraderie through mutual humiliation...not a great way to develop a strong independent personality. We had guys on our floor who tried to pledge at a couple of fraternities and came back with horror stories of being forced to do pushups naked over broken glass while their "brothers" urinated on them.
2 students died in hazing incidents: one brilliant incident was sewing the kid into a mattress and throwing it into a swimming pool. Another died of exposure after being stripped and left in the woods in the middle of winter and told to "find his way back".

The only conceivable advantage would be if you intend to go into a career where fraternity connections give you an advantage, like business administration or law, for example.

However, I assume (hope) things have changed for the better since then, and these warnings are no longer valid.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Ditto!

Smart people doesnt need to join a fraternities. It's a waste of time IMHO.

Heh! Clearly an expert.

I think the hard-core independants aren't much different than the hard-core Greeks -- they adopt the same attitude of superiority that the Greeks do.

There are usually a few of the stereotypical frats on each campus, but if you're willing to look past them you can find a lot of good groups that aren't run like organized popularity contests.

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by Heady:
Ok, so somebody has to explain a few things to me Namely:

1) What exactly are 'Greek organizations'?
2) Why are they 'greek'?
3) Do their names mean something?
4) Are they specific to the US?

Thanks. As a student from Montreal, I had never heard about such things

-Heady

The "Greek system" refers to university fraternities and sororities, or social organizations, most of which take their names from two or three letters in the Greek alphabet. (Why Greek I don't know; I imagine they started in the olden days when studying classical Greek culture formed a larger part of the university curriculum.) Members pay dues and live in a house together either on or near campus. They do charitable work and throw wild parties, although not necessarily in that order. They provide ample opportunities for meeting members of the opposite sex through fraternity/sorority mixers and formal dances. And yes they have them in Canada.

[Heady]

And yes they have them in Canada. [/B]

Well, what do you know. I guess we don't have them here in Qu�bec because of our weird education system, or perhaps because of the stronger French cultural heritage.

Thanks for explaining.

-Heady

[turboSPE]

Originally posted by fromthecloud:
Any one here join a fraternity or sorority during their college years...now or in the past? And which one?

I just pledged Sigma Alpha Epsilon and was wondering who all here were members of Greek organizations...

I ignored all the **** people had to say about the Greek system and joined SigEp here at SMU in Dallas. Wondferul experiences, and awesome friends (brothers!) to boot. Down with all the haters

turboSPE

[Millennium]

I applied at Phi Delta Theta once, but I got rejected. They wouldn't even let me rush.

To this day, I still have no clue what the hell I was thinking that night when I applied. In the end it's just as well; my then-girlfriend (now my fiancee) would have killed me.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by turboSPE:
I ignored all the **** people had to say about the Greek system and joined SigEp here at SMU in Dallas. Wondferul experiences, and awesome friends (brothers!) to boot. Down with all the haters

turboSPE

um...I was relating actual experiences, as a warning for people to make a clear choice. If it works for you, great.

btw: did you feel your frat created forced camaraderie through mutual humiliation, or have we finally gotten past that?
I mean, in your hazing, were you required to do anything that even remotely made you feel uncomfortable or embarrassing? Answer honestly, and give details.

[Montanan]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
btw: did you feel your frat created forced camaraderie through mutual humiliation, or have we finally gotten past that?

I think you and I are about the same age, Lerk (yeah, that old!), and while I don't even wanna know about the twisted behavior of people from Missouri, here's a short report from Montana.

I basically pledged Sigma Chi just because of the cheap food and lodging that was available at the house ... and I was pretty nervous about doing it, partly because of the incredibly twisted stories about fraternity activation weeks that were going around campus. Well, it turned out that the stories I'd heard were, without exception, local urban myths. Activation week included a little yelling and some forced chores, but no physical intimidation or abuse whatsoever.

Now, I'd be the first to admit that there was a fair amount of immature behavior at the frat house on a day-to-day basis ... but I'd say that it was almost exactly akin to the amount of nonsense that was going on over at the dorms.

[turboSPE]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
um...I was relating actual experiences, as a warning for people to make a clear choice. If it works for you, great.

btw: did you feel your frat created forced camaraderie through mutual humiliation, or have we finally gotten past that?
I mean, in your hazing, were you required to do anything that even remotely made you feel uncomfortable or embarrassing? Answer honestly, and give details.

I wasn't humiliated by any of the things I did or experienced. While I can't comment on other fraternities, I know our policy (at the national and chapter level) is one of strict non-hazing, rather the development of the mind, the body, and the spirit (go to www.sigep.org and read about the Balanced Man program). While I can't give you specific details regarding my development activities, I can say that I in no way felt hazed or compelled to do anything I didn't want to. And I don't feel like I have "forced comraderie." I don't enjoy the presence of a few of my brothers, but they're my brothers just the same.

turboSPE

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Heady:
Well, what do you know. I guess we don't have them here in Qu�bec because of our weird education system, or perhaps because of the stronger French cultural heritage.

Yeah that's the reason. I know my house has at least 4 chapters at schools in canada including at McGill.
Anyway here's a better breakdown of the history, its tainted with Fiji BS, but that's to be expected.
http://www.fiji.org/history.htm


And lerk, how much credibility can hazing stories have if you weren't there to witness them? Its all second hand tales told to impress or scare you because the people who told you wanted you to think how cool they were to be privy to that information. Its mostly BS, particularly now. In the age of litigation hazing is far harder to do because people will drop a lawsuit on your ass faster than you can recite the alphabet. Can you find news stories now of incidents? Sure, but its mostly NPHC houses who aren't as closely supervised by the national HQ.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by turboSPE:
I wasn't humiliated by any of the things I did or experienced. While I can't comment on other fraternities, I know our policy (at the national and chapter level) is one of strict non-hazing, rather the development of the mind, the body, and the spirit (go to www.sigep.org and read about the Balanced Man program). While I can't give you specific details regarding my development activities, I can say that I in no way felt hazed or compelled to do anything I didn't want to. And I don't feel like I have "forced comraderie." I don't enjoy the presence of a few of my brothers, but they're my brothers just the same.

turboSPE

thanks, like I said, its been decades since I was in college, and UMC might have been the exception.

however, I must scratch my head at this apparently contradictory comment:

Originally posted by turboSPE:
And I don't feel like I have "forced comraderie." I don't enjoy the presence of a few of my brothers, but they're my brothers just the same.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
And lerk, how much credibility can hazing stories have if you weren't there to witness them? Its all second hand tales told to impress or scare you because the people who told you wanted you to think how cool they were to be privy to that information. Its mostly BS, particularly now.

If I'm making it up, why is it still happening?


hazing death
hazing still occuring


just a couple examples found by google.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
If I'm making it up, why is it still happening?

You don't listen very well.
Alpha Kappa Alpha is a NPHC house. Maybe you don't understand the differences but they fly under a whole other set of rules than IFC houses and the culture behind it is different.
My old roommate was student body president and a Q-dawg at Tuskegee and his stories were totally incomparable to anything I had seen. Omega Phi Psi's get branded with a hot iron but that's an honor to most of the members who chose to finalize their membership. There are less than a half dozen NPHC houses and the level of elitism and secrecy at those colleges is more on par with Skull and Bones than the kind of houses most of us were in.
And I said its less common not that it didn't happen. That is one house in thousands across the nation so you do the number crunching. And the fact that most membership weeks are unchanged throughout the years I bet there is more to that Sigma Chi pledge's story than is being told. But yes the farther south you go the higher the likelihood it happens. THAT is more a trait of the culture down there than the fraternity itself.

[Captain Obvious]

Other fraternity members' actions included making pledges shave without shaving cream, keeping pledges awake by pounding on their doors, blowing horns and breaking beer bottles, and making pledges clean up bins of trash that had been tossed into halls.

Are you kidding? People who play varsity sports get worse than that. That looks like pampering when compared to what people who go to boarding school get their first year from the upperclassmen. Then we have the kids who go to places like VMA. That is something that at least is warranted if complained about. Someone in University administration wanted to make an example of this house for some reason or they were under pressure from a parent threating to sue. Now I know there is more to this story somewhere.

What a joke, no shaving cream. Boo hoo

[turboSPE]

however, I must scratch my head at this apparently contradictory comment: [/B]

Yes, perhaps that came out wrong...I'm not sure how else to explain it, other than perhaps you've got a sibling you don't particularly care for, but they're still your sibling...Know what I mean?

turboSPE

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
You don't listen very well.
Alpha Kappa Alpha is a NPHC house. Maybe you don't understand the differences but they fly under a whole other set of rules than IFC houses and the culture behind it is different.

First you say that relating history has no credibility unless I personally witness it and then say what I have to say of my experience and the experience of people I knew very well is BS, then you ask me to come up with news links, which I do. Then you say I'm not listening.

well, regardless of the differences between NPHC and IFC, that doesnt make what I related untrue or BS or invalid.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by turboSPE:
Yes, perhaps that came out wrong...I'm not sure how else to explain it, other than perhaps you've got a sibling you don't particularly care for, but they're still your sibling...Know what I mean?

turboSPE

right. in other words: forced camaraderie, like I said. You're required to be associated with people you would not normally choose to be, if you weren't in the fraternity. Its the "brotherhood" which imposes a false obligatory connection to people for no other reason than that they happen to retain the same 2-4 greek letters.

Its a well-known group dynamic that if you share a humiliating experience, this will artificially bond you to perfect strangers. This is the whole purpose behind hazing.
Supposedly it doesn't happen anymore...and I don't think it happens as frequently, but it still happens.

[talisker]

I had a great time at university by meeting people who were in the same halls (dorms to you American types), classes and sports clubs etc, and generally going to the pub with them and having a good time. The idea of begging entry into some sort of social organisation where you then have to do chores, initiations etc to prove your "worth" before being accepted seems utterly bizarre. Maybe there's just something I don't understand going on here.

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
My old roommate was student body president and a Q-dawg at Tuskegee and his stories were totally incomparable to anything I had seen. Omega Phi Psi's get branded with a hot iron but that's an honor to most of the members who chose to finalize their membership.

Wow that brings back unpleasant memories ... the "Q's" were trying to get a chapter going at Northwestern when I was there. The roommate of a friend of mine down the hall decided to join. The pledging "process" was run by some older (30-ish) Chicago area Q's. Cuts, bruises, sleep deprivation, etc. ensued. Once my friend entered his room and found not his roommate but a Q with a knife. (note: this was not a pocketknife) The knife was not intended for my friend, but he decided to sleep elsewhere that night anyway.

[Montezuma58]

General comment on hazing. Probably not as bad and widespread as it used to be. But it still goes on. I've been out for seven years but while I was in college one frat had a pledge die during a fraternity function. Another got sued over stuff that happened to a pledge. The stuff actually happened to all of the pledges but one of them finally said enough was enough and did something about it. That pledge was a childhood neighbor of mine and I had no reason to doubt his allegations.

As for the black fraternities, that is a radically different culture. The things they make their pledges do in public are pretty bizarre. They are really strong on unity so the pledges have to do pretty much everything other than go to classes as a highly choreographed unit. One of the places I lived in college was a frat house for a black fraternity that was being kicked off campus for hazing. I met one of the brothers while we were looking at the house. It had a grungy basement that used to have a bathroom. The brother from the fraternity admitted that they used the basement for rituals and that the hole where the toilet used to be was convinient because they could just hose the puke down it. Later after we moved in we found some notes from one of the pledges. The notes had a shopping list that included tampons. Also there were some ramblings about some Egyption stuff that made no sense that they had to memorize before "Tubby" got back.

[Captain Obvious]

This entire thread's responses where begun with remarks that this was not for everyone. And its not, which is why the people who wouldn't enjoy it were not part of it.
Lerk, you are a nice enough guy. You are smart, highly philosophical, usually sentimental and I can completely see how you were once an RA. You are not someone who would have enjoyed being in the greek system. But you criticize something you have no first hand experience with and really took very little time to understand. Your speculations about what is and what the purpose may be of hazing are not informed opinions. Most people who have chosen to join these organizations may even have a tough time expressing the reasons of why its done because there is a larger effect the process has that really encompasses one's experience there over the span of the four years. There isn't one reason its done. Just like many rites of passage that exist it has more to do with a bigger picture. You'll generally get a very diplomatic answer if you ask someone to justify it to you. The reasons being that I think at a certain point the people who do these things understand that there are people who won't ever really get it. And that is fine. A very telling trait of that is your statement of the conceived advantage of even going through the process. Its not conceivable to you because many of the advantages are not obvious even to those people until they are out of school. But they exist and encompass more than I would have thought when I joined years ago.

Anyway, I digress. I do however wonder how many people in your life you were forced to spend time with at work or that may have been related/friends to your spouse/girlfriend who you did not care for.
How valid do you think those obligatory connections were? Why didn't you walk away from your job(s) or relationships over that? Just like anything else people have a choice nothing is forced and sometimes learning to get along with people who you didn't initially like may lead to you being surprised about who'd you be friends with.

I also did not ask you to find links to stories. It was a rhetorical question that I answered in the sentence that followed that question. And the spot on odds are that your stories are something to happened to a guy you knew who had a cousin who it happened to back in the day. Its urban legend based out of some vaguely related story.
And you should make a distinction between NPHC and other orders and not for obvious reasons. Those organization's members are there for more of a life long commitment than almost all fraternal organizations.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
... basic dynamic of forced comraderie through mutual humiliation...not a great way to develop a strong independent personality.

excellent description, well put!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
I also did not ask you to find links to stories. It was a rhetorical question that I answered in the sentence that followed that question. And the spot on odds are that your stories are something to happened to a guy you knew who had a cousin who it happened to back in the day. Its urban legend based out of some vaguely related story.
And you should make a distinction between NPHC and other orders and not for obvious reasons. Those organization's members are there for more of a life long commitment than almost all fraternal organizations.

no, now you're not listening. The incidents with the broken glass, pushups and getting urinated on happened to guys on my floor. As an RA, I spent quite a bit of time counseling these two guys as they were very shaken up about the whole deal. This did not happen to someone told to me third hand, this happened directly to two people I knew well. They were assigned to my floor and decided to pledge mid-year. They changed their minds and stayed in the dorm.

You continually try to accuse me of fabricating these stories, but listen, they happened, they happened to two guys I know, and I spent a long time talking these guys out of exacting physical revenge against the "brothers" who abused them.
I remember it as if it was yesterday.

I'm done talking to you if you keep accusing me of lying.

[Anomalous]

I hate fraternities and sororities. They ruin any neighborhood they are built in. I wish they would just get rid of the Greek system entirely.