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deharlow · Jul 22, 2002, 12:08 AM

If piracy with 10.2 is high then I expect they will move to serial numbers on their future OS releases. They already have serial numbers on OS X Server so I expect it would be pretty easy for them to implement it in OS X.

Daniel

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by winterlandia:
Yup, not yet. They seem to follow MS's lead on everything though (so do other software vendors) so don't be surprised if they do this in the future...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by eno:
Thank god Apple doesn't bother with serial numbers for its OS like MS does.<hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>

besson3c · Jul 22, 2002, 01:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am qualified for edu price and intend to pay it, but the principle that there is not upgrade price is really making me sad. Apple is acting like a monopoly and it is a monopoly: its even more monopolisting than MS, which does not control hardware prices in PC world (and thanks to hardware competitive prices PC are looking attractive); in mac world we have absolute 100% monopoly of Apple and it exersizes it recently just mercilessly. I wont go bankrupt paying edu price; but the problem is that Apple could easily decide to charge 250$ for OS and there is no way we could do anythng about it.. i predict that Apple will exersize its monopoly many times again..argghh,,,if we had cheaper hardware options, i could live it with it. <hr /></blockquote>How is it that in the "Mac world Apple has a 100% monopoly" and how is this different than the PC world? The alternative to Windows on the Wintel side is Linux which is available for both platforms.

I'm really having a hard time seeing your point here. Perhaps you can enlighten.

Brazuca · Jul 22, 2002, 02:23 AM

Here's the problem with piracy:

So far there is not good way to stop it. The best prevention is good will. In other words, if users don't want to pirate your stuff, they you have no problem. Otherwise you either take some highly dubious action (as far as consumer rights are concerned) or you simply try to find the optimum price for a product given the piracy. The latter makes the "honest" consumer subsidize the piracy of the others.

There is also a huge Free Rider problem. This goes straight to the "good will" issue. The Free Rider won't be a problem if people feel "bad" or "guilty" for doing the piracy. So far Apple has benefited greatly for this while Microsoft has not.

The Free Rider problem is where one thinks: "Well, everyone is paying. As long as they do, I won't make a dent and I get to save $$$"
That person weighs the costs of piracy ("how likely am I to get caught?") with the money they save. Well, with Carracho, hotline, etc thriving, this phenomenon is alive and well.

So Apple, how publicly stated that piracy is a behavior issue, is very likely to see increased piracy. Bad will towards a company has many costs. How much is yet to be seen, but I will be honest with you: I am trying very hard to not copy my brother's pre-ordered Jaguar instead of buying my copy. But I'm fuming so much that I may simply act as a selfish Free Rider, say "Screw Apple", save me some bucks (subsidizing .Mac), and never worry about it.

Will I do it? I doubt it, but knowing myself, if I am hesitating, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who won't think twice about it.

Apple is just another company to me now. I'm done apologizing for it to my PC using friends. I'm no longer interested in making users switch or touting the benefits of the Mac. At the very least Apple lost in me an evangelist.

At the worst, they'll never get another dime from me (though I would still use their software and hardware).

Either case they lose (in my book).

maceye · Jul 22, 2002, 02:47 AM

I would never install a pirated copy of any Apple OS�they work hard to create quality software and the only way that they will continue to innovate is if people pay for their products.

Olorin · Jul 22, 2002, 02:51 AM

I have been using 10.2 build 6C98 for awhile now. I have to say 10.2 is very stable. They have added many new features which I find very usefull. I liked it so much that I preordered a copy of 10.2 GM from Apple.com along with 5 DVD's. This is going to be a great OS. Don't Pirate software if it costs apple money. Apple Computer is the best company out there and they are trying there best. The economy sucks because of 8 years of clinton policy. Apple is having trouble making a good profit they can't aford to give things away any more. Don't get mad at apple it's not there fault the economy sucks. It's the people who don't care enough to vote for the right person. The time of free service and high wadges are over. Things change but thats what life is about. 10.2 is a good stable OS I love it...
Algol~The DEAMON STAR

hmurchison2001 · Jul 22, 2002, 02:59 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Apple is just another company to me now. I'm done apologizing for it to my PC using friends. I'm no longer interested in making users switch or touting the benefits of the Mac. At the very least Apple lost in me an evangelist.

At the worst, they'll never get another dime from me (though I would still use their software and hardware).

Either case they lose (in my book). <hr /></blockquote>Apple never requested your Evangalism you did so of your own free will. Apple owes a responsibility to their Customers and Shareholders. What you're doing is asking Apple to forsake their customers and shareholders at large to appease a small group of individuals who think .mac or Jaguar is too expensive. Although they have the choice to to forgo on paying for these services. Apple has not lost a thing....as a matter of fact they've gained.

turtle777 · Jul 22, 2002, 06:33 AM

Hey, to all of you that say, OS X.2 is not worth 129 $.

Would you be willing to pay at least HALF THE PRICE instead of pirating it ?
Well then, afaik, if you order the student version, you are NOT required to prove that you are a student. They basically believe your word. So, maybe some of you would consider paying at least that...

So far,
-t

solitere · Jul 22, 2002, 06:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by deharlow:
[QB]If piracy with 10.2 is high then I expect they will move to serial numbers on their future OS releases. They already have serial numbers on OS X Server so I expect it would be pretty easy for them to implement it in OS X.
<hr /></blockquote>Yes mayby.. but I don�t think that they will implement the use of serialnumbers. I give you 3 good reasons!

1. Apple have newer had serial protection on their Consumers OS!
2. It would work against "the ease of use and installation" - Thinking that Apple has!
3. Fake Serialnumbers are easy to get!

Mediaman_12 · Jul 22, 2002, 07:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by turtle777:
Hey, to all of you that say, OS X.2 is not worth 129 $.

Would you be willing to pay at least HALF THE PRICE instead of pirating it ?
Well then, afaik, if you order the student version, you are NOT required to prove that you are a student. They basically believe your word. So, maybe some of you would consider paying at least that...

So far,
-t<hr /></blockquote>Are you sure? I thought you had to give a Student number, or some sort of proof that you were attending a Qualifing college?
(Wonder if this prorgrame opereates in the uk?)

Hash · Jul 22, 2002, 08:48 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by besson3c:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />I am qualified for edu price and intend to pay it, but the principle that there is not upgrade price is really making me sad. Apple is acting like a monopoly and it is a monopoly: its even more monopolisting than MS, which does not control hardware prices in PC world (and thanks to hardware competitive prices PC are looking attractive); in mac world we have absolute 100% monopoly of Apple and it exersizes it recently just mercilessly. I wont go bankrupt paying edu price; but the problem is that Apple could easily decide to charge 250$ for OS and there is no way we could do anythng about it.. i predict that Apple will exersize its monopoly many times again..argghh,,,if we had cheaper hardware options, i could live it with it. <hr /></blockquote>How is it that in the "Mac world Apple has a 100% monopoly" and how is this different than the PC world? The alternative to Windows on the Wintel side is Linux which is available for both platforms.

I'm really having a hard time seeing your point here. Perhaps you can enlighten.<hr /></blockquote>I mean that in PC world, you have MS monopoly in OS and some business apps such as Office and almost - monopoly in browser. But MS does not control hardware prices - they remain competitive. In Apple world, we have 100 monopoly of Apple on OS and the hardware. Linux never is considered to be an alternative for consumer desktops and notebooks both for Windows and Macs; i am not talking about servers. Hope this makes my point clearer.

vmarks · Jul 22, 2002, 11:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zazou:
This thread is just simply madness.

They are charging for it and if you get it by any means other than paying for it ( including the EDU price if you don't really qualify for it ) you are stealing and are nothing less than a thief.

And there is no justification.<hr /></blockquote>I think you're talking about two separate things:

1) Copyright infringement, (copying) which is not theft- it's the crime of copyright infringement, it's own separate crime, and

2) Fraud. Lying to obtain the educational price when you do not qualify for it. This is also not theft, it's the commission of fraud, it's own separate crime.

Don't confuse things further, just because theft sounds more dramatic.

And to everyone else- Don't commit copyright infringement or fraud. If you don't want to pay, don't buy.

[ 07-22-2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: vmarks ]

ratfink · Jul 22, 2002, 12:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sharky K.:
10.2 has so many new features... get real get a legal copy.
If you can pirate .mac, that is oke with me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Better yet, since you cant pirate .mac, pay for it, and pirate Jag. That way you can rationalize .mac as free.

Geof

Brazuca · Jul 22, 2002, 12:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Apple never requested your Evangalism you did so of your own free will. Apple owes a responsibility to their Customers and Shareholders. What you're doing is asking Apple to forsake their customers and shareholders at large to appease a small group of individuals who think .mac or Jaguar is too expensive. Although they have the choice to to forgo on paying for these services. Apple has not lost a thing....as a matter of fact they've gained.<hr /></blockquote>Actually (I may be wrong about this), wasn't there a time during the "beleagueared" days that Apple supported and even encouraged Evangelism?

But that's not the point. Word of mouth is a key way of selling Macs. Take a look at the switch campaign for evidence that even Apple recognizes this.

And I don't think that Apple is doing its customers or shareholders any favors by raising prices and angering its customers. A company that has less than 5% market share is says it is trying so hard to gain the other 95% is doing itself a great disservice by putting short term financial solvency ahead of long-term plans.

Don't think that increasing the cost of owning a Mac beyond the already recognized "Mac Premium" is doing any good to attract new customers. But it is amazing that they are willing to lose their most loyal customers (some of the most loyal in the industry) in order to look good on paper next quarter (isn't this how Enron and Co. got where they are today?)

So no, Apple is indeed only losing. A higher stock price does not lead to higher sales, though this is a red herring. Apple is not in business to raise the stock price. It's in business to grow as a company (which hopefully leads to higher stock prices, etc).

I hear of people saying that Apple has only gained by this. Looking from where I sit, it sounds like a lot of wishful thinking.

brachiator · Jul 22, 2002, 12:59 PM

Yes, Apple really needs to take the long view, rather than the short-term revenues/income view.

It's true that mac enthusiasts are willing to bitch at the drop of a hat. But between no early-adopter discount for 10.2, and the sudden abolition of free iTools for an expensive .mac, we have a legitimate beef. Not a gigantic one, but a legitimate complaint.

It is short-sighted to exchange our goodwill for another 70 or 130 bucks for what seems to me to be the first really tight version of the new OS.

Besides, isn't Apple first and foremost a *hardware* company? Don't they want me to buy a new TiBook? Well, I am at *least* 130 bucks *less* likely to buy that new TiBook now -- ESPECIALLY since 10.2 will probably allow me to get another couple of years out of my Powerbook G3... my enthusiasm is flagging as I contemplate paying another early-adopter "tax"! ;-)

osiris · Jul 22, 2002, 02:17 PM

After trying 10.2 out on a new 17" at the Apple Store in soho, YES - I will not buy this version, I will acquire it or make a client pay for it instead.

I feel no difference in speed between a G4 400 under 10.1.4 and the G4 700 iMac running Jaguar. If I were blown away by the launch times and usability of IE, iTunes & Quicktime then I would be singing a different tune. To pay this much for it would be an act of insanity, especially when I need to also update Quicktime Pro.

But I admit that the finder is indeed faster, but that's it. I have no use for iCal, iChat, iWhatever...
I guess I'm in a pissy mood, especially after going to the Apple Store and not seeing 5 Ghz G7's lining the counters. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

Hash · Jul 22, 2002, 02:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by osiris:
After trying 10.2 out on a new 17" at the Apple Store in soho, YES - I will not buy this version, I will acquire it or make a client pay for it instead.

I feel no difference in speed between a G4 400 under 10.1.4 and the G4 700 iMac running Jaguar. If I were blown away by the launch times and usability of IE, iTunes & Quicktime then I would be singing a different tune. To pay this much for it would be an act of insanity, especially when I need to also update Quicktime Pro.

But I admit that the finder is indeed faster, but that's it. I have no use for iCal, iChat, iWhatever...
I guess I'm in a pissy mood, especially after going to the Apple Store and not seeing 5 Ghz G7's lining the counters. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Glad that you saw that too -- that real sucks that Apple wants full money for collection of fixes

typoon · Jul 22, 2002, 03:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BTP:
I'll pay for it.

What amazes me is that people can't get over the fact that is it going to cost for 10.2. Everyone is complaining and, true, I'd love to have 10.2 for cheap or free, but Apple is a business and has been acting like it for a while now. The balance, it seems, it pleasing the user base and staying in business.

Its apparent that some of you would want Apple to give 10.2 away and lose moeny, which is not a good plan if they want to be around in the future. True it is not free as in Linux, but it isn't expensive as in M$.

I'll admit that the .mac pricing got me, but after looking at it, it isn't so bad. Some have said they have taken a page from M$, and in this case, good for them. I like Apple products and I want them to be around in the future. So if they are making revenue from selling their software and service, that is fine with me. (broken promises and wishes for lower costs for the products and services aside)

People expect Apple to be comptitive and in doing so they have to make tough calls, this likely one of them. DO you think they thought that people were going to cheer .mac's costs when they had some of it's services for free? Or that there was not 10.1 ->10.2 upgrade pricing, etc? Or do you think they are full of coprorate greed? Revenue is the lifeblood of any company.

If you pirate 10.2, that is your business. If you pirate it as a form of protest, it is biting the hand that feeds you and you are working against the efforts of making this and future software from Apple.

I may not prefer to pay $129 for 10.2 or $99/year for .mac, but for me, I'll support the company that makes my OS of choice, hopefully ensuring it will always be there for me.

That said, you may now commmence with the 'apologist' name calling. Oh, and if you do, explain how Apple is supposed to give up channels of revenue and still compete with a company that *earned in profits* what Apple made in *revenue*. (Giving away things! Good plan!)<hr /></blockquote>I totally agree with you on this. I had pirated copies of OS X 10.0 and 10.1 but bought the final of Both. I have not installed any builds of Jag even though the tempation especially after MWNY has been especially High. I decided I'm going to Wait til the final comes out and Pay for it. Yes 129 is high but you can get it via the Mac OS up-to-date program for 20 bucks. So why all the complaining? I am also going to Pay my 50 for .mac this Friday after I get paid. The Backup feature is great and in anticipation of other cool things that will come out of it Should be worth it. I'm going to buy 10.2 the day it comes out. It's a Saturday August 24th so I'm going to be Standing online at the Apple store waiting for it to open with my 130 in hand.

I for one feel that People should pay for OS X 10.2 because for one Apple is a Business and for a business to continue people need to buy there stuff. Second, To me the 129 is a lot cheaper than what M$ is charging for Windows XP.

KidRed · Jul 22, 2002, 05:14 PM

I would only play with copies off of carracho and never install then as my main OS. I would however, gladly borrow someone's actual cd. I will more then likely get one CD and let my parents install it after I have because they just paid $129 for 10 last year and I wouldn't make them drop that again just a year later. I need/want to stay up to date, but I don't expect my parents to.

Spirit_VW · Jul 22, 2002, 06:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:
]Glad that you saw that too -- that real sucks that Apple wants full money for collection of fixes<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, Jaguar is just "a collection of fixes" - nothing more.

Reading not your strong suit, Rash?

OverclockedHomoSapien · Jul 23, 2002, 12:24 AM

I'll be paying the student price for it.

I think it would be in Apple's best interest to make the Jaguar update free. Every Mac running OS X is essentially a "free" advertisement for Apple, it's a representation of how great Apple is compared to Windows. Thus, it is in Apple's best interest for every Mac running OS X to be as fast and as feature laden as possible. This means making all OS X updates FREE. It's difficult to predict, but I think that if more Windows users see OS X at its best, rather than an older, slower version, then more Windows users will switch. Thus making Jaguar free could lead to a greater expansion of Apple's market share.

Another reason that a free Jaguar update would benefit Apple is that it could prompt more Mac users to upgrade to OS X. Apple needs as many users to migrate to OS X as possible, it's good for the platform in that it draws more developers, and also, developers can concentrate more on optimizing their apps for OS X and forget about OS 9. If people see that Apple is offering every OS X update for free, then I think they will be more likely to take th eplunge to OS X. And like the first point, the more Macs that are running the most modern version of OS X, the more people are exposed to the best that Apple has to offer, and thus the more people who invest in OS X.

In any event, I'll be paying for OS X because I ALWAYS pay for Apple's products. I've got no problem with pirating other software, like that crapware from Redmond, WA, but when it comes to Apple, no way am I going to short-change Apple, i.e., "the hand that feeds me". If Apple were to go belly up and I had been pirating their software, I'd feel like such a turd.

Forcer · Jul 23, 2002, 06:22 AM

I just might pay the student price if it applies to Norway, which I doubt.. Apple Store Norway doesnt say anything about students / student prices.

I will most likely install the copy my father is buying. I need the money I'm making this summer to buy a new mac - so Apple gets my money anyway, it seems..

Concerning piracy, sure, it's a problem but I tend to think that people mostly think like me - If you can afford it and use it a lot, buy it. If you can't - don't. Then either get a pirated version (if you are 'that kind') or don't get it at all. Either way, I don't see how Apple (or any other companies) loses money on that kind of piracy.

However, I do understand that there are people who defo have the money but spends them on other stuff instead because they can get it for free..

And one more thing.. Someone said that because some people pirated it, Apple had to charge more for it.. and I was thinking.. if Apple lowered the price, then probably less people would pirate it. Me included. (Ok, So I'm not the first to think this but it just felt like a good thing to say in my post

)

Person Man · Jul 23, 2002, 07:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Borborygmi:
My problem with buying 10.2 isn't that it costs $129... it's that an upgrade from 10 (which I paid full price for) is ALSO $129. An early adopter who paid full price should not IMHO have to pay full price again for an UPDATE to an OS.<hr /></blockquote>"My problem with buying 9.0 isn't that it costs $99... it's that an upgrade from 8.5 (which I paid full price for) is ALSO $99."

"My problem with buying 8.0 isn't that it costs $99... it's that an upgrade from 7.6 (which I paid full price for) is ALSO $99."

Your argument doesn't hold water, as the above two examples show.

Person Man · Jul 23, 2002, 07:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Groovy:
We did not and still do not have even BASIC OS FEATURES like sound when doing
stuff like empty the trash etc... but hey we get inkwell
<hr /></blockquote>Since when is playing a sound while emptying the trash a basic feature???

pdot · Jul 23, 2002, 11:25 AM

I'm waiting to see 2 things before I make my decision about 10.2.

1) Is there a significant speed boost w/o a 32MB vid card on a G4/400? If so, how much?
2) What about w/ a 32MB vid card? (This decides whether or not I'll buy a 32MB vid card)

marnie · Jul 23, 2002, 12:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DNA man:
Making the assumption that you had easy access to Jaguar as a pirated copy would you choose to install the pirated copy? Or would you pay for the original software? Be honest here.

If you wish, you may comment on the decision you made<hr /></blockquote>I'm kind of looking for a third choice, here. That would be, neither.

I'm not going to install a pirated copy not from moralistic point of view, but because I don't trust a pirated operating system. However, I've paid for every operation system I've used, from 4.0 to 10.1.5.

I use OS X full time, now, mostly because I got all excited, set everything up, and nowsimply am too lazy to return to 9.0, and I don't find 10.1.5 bad enough to get over that lazy feeling.

But, I don't think 10.1.5 is very good, I have a lot of kernel panics (I think once every couple of weeks is a lot) and it's pretty sluggish, meaning I wasn't previously aware of my computer taking time to complete operating system (as in non-application) tasks.

I'm not going to pay for it because I don't have the money right now. If I did, I probably would, but unhappily, because I think there should be a discount on a .2 upgrade for .1 or .0 users, especially when such an upgrade which includes fixes and a new copy cursor in it's list of major new features.

If I had a reliable source to pirate from, I may do it. If I felt it was worth my money, I'd cut back on costs to buy it.

rlmorel · Jul 23, 2002, 01:05 PM

I will pay. I would like it for free...but I will pay. You know why? I had my first extensive exposure to XP yesterday, and...

I will do what is necessary to have a viable OS alternative to XP. (Sorry Linux folks, I cannot consider Linux as an alternative.)

It was horrible. Confusing...it made the directory organization of OSX seem completely understandable and simple by comparison. Installing a VPN client was a nightmare, took several hours to get the taskbar back (which the installation somehow hosed), now not only does the PC not work, but the wireless connection does not work either.

I will pay my money and like doing it.

Talleyman · Jul 23, 2002, 01:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Tewksbury:
I'm going to wait and see what people say about 10.2 when it's released before I pay the money....<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. And I'm going to go to an Apple Store and test drive Jag throughly to verify that the final release includes...
* key Finder bug fixes and MIA functionality,
* PowerBook Energy Saver MIA functionality,
* other key OS 9 MIA funtionality, etc.
before I purchase the any OS X 'upgrade' at any price.

I really don't care about iChat, AddressBook, Quartz Extreme etc. if the basic functionality of OS X (e.g. Finder, Energy Saver) is still buggy or MIA.

asxless in iLand<hr /></blockquote>"My view of the whole thing is that until the lessons learned are known, I wouldn't be able to answer a question like that and it impresses me that others can from their pinnacles of relatively modest knowledge," Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense

Amazing how a Great statment like this one has soooo many applications.

'nuf said.

Talleyman