[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by quandarry:
die thread die!

Please try to relax

[mrfrost]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
1 point is that if people don�t want to wait 6 months until Omega is out!

**Cheek out the mad thread: new BBX GUI Overlay Kit - BBX OMEGA�

Do you really think he would make more money than if he spent his time working for a client?

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by mrfrost:
Do you really think he would make more money than if he spent his time working for a client?

Look at this poll from MAX site

Theme Poll

What would you pay for a complete and well done GUI makeover kit (including theme, icons, app skins, desktop pictures etc)?

I would not pay for it!
$5
$10
More than $10


What do you think it means?

An average theme on MacUpdate alone! Is getting 2000-4000 downloads a month! 1000,000 Theme relited downloads from the time ShapeShifter was out 7 themes in MacUpdate Weekly Popular downloads not bad for a cult.



Wake up people or I will have to tell you my secret

[mrfrost]

1) A poll doesn't mean **** on the internet.

2) Having a lot of downloads does not mean that your product will sell good.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by mrfrost:
1) A poll doesn't mean **** on the internet.

2) Having a lot of downloads does not mean that your product will sell good.

1. I think he meant that if he will make a complete theme �(including theme, icons, app skins, desktop pictures etc)?� Which obviously will take some time will we pay for it?


2. No it doesn�t but it means that you have a market the rest is up to you.


By saying that (Max) what he really means that there is a reason why the themes are not complete and maybe it will be nice of us to show some support.

can't you take a hint

[bbxstudio]

Skin suites do sell on the PC - the big drawback being that 99% of them blow giant mediocre chunks. Even so, there are people actively developing them, selling them and buying them every day. People pay for fonts, screensavers, keynote and iDVD themes, etc - there's no reason why themes should be seen any differently really, assuming they're well executed and extensive enough that charging for them can be justified. Whether or not a guy could actually make any money selling them on the Mac is a different thing altogether. But really, if a guy wanted to charge for his theme I say all the power to him - it had probably better be pretty damned good, though. People would probably want to see pro-quality on par with a commercial interface before they'd be willing to pay for it I think - most people are pretty cheap.

To see it as greed on the themer's part isn't really fair - spending the time making the things, paying for distribution and hosting (especially if they're popular and generate a lot of traffic)... this all costs money (and at best the guy would maybe cover costs). People already expect frequent updates, variants, everything patched, etc. - and they're getting all this stuff for free - the more popuar themers would only be justified in charging small one-time or subscription-based fees for their investment as far as I'm concerned.

A lot of people whine that they've already paid for ShapeShifter, so why the hell should they pay for a theme? We paid for MacOSX, so why the hell should we pay for apps to run on it, right? Same thing kids.

The argument that Apple could sue the themer is ridiculous... assuming the themer was distributing SS theme(s) and not modified extras.rsrc files - there is a huge difference, actually. SS themes are modules for commercial software - not only does the user/developer never see the extras.rsrc, but the files within the system are never touched/manipulated/moved/replaced anyways.

I'm not saying I plan on charging for Omega on the Mac (I don't), but if these things really took off and became expensive to create and distribute (and I felt that what I was doing was cool/pro-quality enough to justify charging for), I might actually consider it. Why not? Heck, if I were actually doing this stuff for a living as opposed to squeezing it in between commercial work, I might actually be able to spit these things out regularly

[Tarambana]

Hi!


Fist of all, zxspectrum, I disagree when you assure that themers are amateurs. Because you seem to infer from that, that their work will be worse that it would be, should they be professionals �some of them , BTW do are, as BBX-. An dI think they do actually, even having it as a passtime, give very good themes to the community.

Also, having many downloads of a free product, does not give you a market. It is easy to understand that as price rises, the people willing to pay, would be cut down - that is at least what my Economy teacher told me So having a market of free products does not equal having one of paid products.

Anyway, AFAIK, it is not up to you to decide wether it is mandatory or not to pay for themes. If themers want to try it, fine I wish them luck and I for one will surely pay. But I believe this thread is growing useless.


Tara.

[NetworkShadow]

As far as I'm concerned theme makeover kits for sale would have to be close to BBX quality before I'd ever pay for them. You'd have to have top notch quality products before you sell them. 98% of themes out now I'd never pay for.

[Jaey]

I think Tarambana is right (most of it's what I've been saying all along).

If you have something for free, tons of people will try it, thinking "Oh, it's free. I might as well try it if it doesn't cost anything..." But as soon as you charge for it, only a few people will buy it, because it may "blow giant mediocre chunks" and you really can't know that until you have the theme.
So what I hear a lot of, and I think it's the right thing, is that themers can charge if they want, they might not get as many downloads, they might make a million dollars a second, they might be poor beggars living on the street after a week, but it's their choice.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
As far as I'm concerned theme makeover kits for sale would have to be close to BBX quality before I'd ever pay for them.

Thanks But what is 'BBX quality' exactly? Sure, the stuff you've seen of Omega so far might look funky - but how do you know the rest doesn't suck?

Not that I don't appreciate the kudos and all (I really do), but in almost every thread I see a message by someone saying 'I'm only going to use Omega' or 'BBX says' etc. It does make me a little uncomfortable, seeing as all most people have seen of Omega is an iTunes remote, an early logo and a few icons. If I were on the outside looking in (seeing the few Omega bits revealed so far) I'd be thinking 'yeah looks promising, can't wait to see the rest'... but probably not 'BBX rules and Omega will be the best theme ever and the only theme I'll ever use'. There's been so much of that kind of stuff that people are (understandably in same cases) backlashing with anti-BBX sentiment - which I of course take personally, which isn't fun.

I'm not trying to single you out or even imply that this particular message runs along those lines (after all, you could probably get a good feel of the quality of what you've seen so far and expect the rest to be just as cool I guess), but I don't think I deserve half of the pro-(or anti-)BBX craziness that goes on. Once the stuff is out and there's actually something concrete to point to as an example of its undeniable coolness (or lack thereof), sure - just a little early is all (seeing as I can't even show screenies to back it up yet)...

Just please don't take it personally, NS I really do appreciate the support.

[NetworkShadow]

I don't think a lot of themers sound like they would ever charge for themes, I could be wrong though... I know I never plan to.

"BBX quality" applies to all your old work too, not just what little I've seen of Omega.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Tarambana:
Hi!


Fist of all, zxspectrum, I disagree when you assure that themers are amateurs. Because you seem to infer from that, that their work will be worse that it would be, should they be professionals �some of them , BTW do are, as BBX-. An dI think they do actually, even having it as a passtime, give very good themes to the community.

Also, having many downloads of a free product, does not give you a market. It is easy to understand that as price rises, the people willing to pay, would be cut down - that is at least what my Economy teacher told me So having a market of free products does not equal having one of paid products.

Anyway, AFAIK, it is not up to you to decide wether it is mandatory or not to pay for themes. If themers want to try it, fine I wish them luck and I for one will surely pay. But I believe this thread is growing useless.


Tara.

Hi,


O.k. time to be blunt!

I am not a Themer although I wish I were

I never studied economy but I did manage to retire by the time I was 28 and that give me the right to overrule your teacher

Business is a mix of instincts vision determination guts statistics and a lot of hard work, Most of that you can�t really learn in business School.
The group pressure here is enormous every time $$$ is involves all the emotional blackmailers are having a blast.

Most people on this form are Artist and it looks to me like they are almost embarrass to ask for money for their work.
that�s why I think we should take the first step!

Yes it was very easy to me to send SWIZ $20 for 1 theme but I don�t expect anybody to do the same just do something.



Take it as a challenge instead of a punishment.

ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Tarambana:
Hi!


Fist of all, zxspectrum, I disagree when you assure that themers are amateurs. Because you seem to infer from that, that their work will be worse that it would be, should they be professionals �some of them , BTW do are, as BBX-. An dI think they do actually, even having it as a passtime, give very good themes to the community.

Also, having many downloads of a free product, does not give you a market. It is easy to understand that as price rises, the people willing to pay, would be cut down - that is at least what my Economy teacher told me So having a market of free products does not equal having one of paid products.

Anyway, AFAIK, it is not up to you to decide wether it is mandatory or not to pay for themes. If themers want to try it, fine I wish them luck and I for one will surely pay. But I believe this thread is growing useless.


Tara.

Originally posted by Tarambana:
"some of them , BTW do are, as BBX-. An dI think they do actually, even having it as a passtime, give very good themes to the community."

--

My point exactly they are excellent!

If they can do that on their spare time Just imagine the possibilities�

--

[kmkkid]

ZXspectrum,


Just because you have alot of money to waste doesnt mean the average computer user does. As many have stated, theming is a labour of love. Like, I'm not biased here. I created the watercolor msstyle/WB skin for XP. If I went and sold that I could have $500,000 in the bank according to the amount of dloads it's had on various sites; assuming I charged $1 for it (nevermind the legal woes I'd have from using an MS design lol). I'm also making other themes which are a secret for now. But believe me, people do not want to pay for theme suites. I know there are theme suites on the PC side that are sold, but honestly how many people have $20 to spare on a skin? I think they'd rather buy a useful program with that money, not just eye candy.


I dont care how good a skin is, I wouldnt pay for it ever. I also feel thats it's wrong to pay for themeing software such as WB/Shapeshifter, or theme creators, because they are taking advantage of an artists good will... but thats another topic for another day.


Chris

[olorin15]

Originally posted by quandarry:
die thread die!

quandarry - I know we've had more that one fight here in the forums, but this may just be my favorite post to date! Good job!

[olorin15]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
Hi,

O.k. time to be blunt! ...

So did you come here to show off or start a new business or what? Good for you that you retired at 28 ... and you know this guy called Bill Gates has $40 billion in his bank account ... so what the hell does that have to do with OSX themes? Maybe a few people would pay for themes, but not nearly enough to make real $$. This is a bad business idea ... you start charging for themes, and you'll antagonize people. 99% of the people will NOT pay for them. All you'll get is people posting here saying what a son of a ***** you are. The point is (and this has been made before in other threads) that there are many themers out there. If Max started charging for his themes, I'd stop using them. There'd still be Izawa, DSKY, and many others ... do you get the point? Your personal success in life has nothing to do with this thread you started ... I don't even know why you brought it up ...

[NetworkShadow]

Well put kmkkid and olorin15.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by kmkkid:

I dont care how good a skin is, I wouldnt pay for it ever. I also feel thats it's wrong to pay for themeing software such as WB/Shapeshifter, or theme creators, because they are taking advantage of an artists good will...

So nobody deserves to get paid? Absurd.

[badidea]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Well put kmkkid and olorin15.

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:

Yes it was very easy to me to send SWIZ $20 for 1 theme but I don�t expect anybody to do the same just do something.

Not so very well put guys!
This guy didn't want to show off neither did he say anything about that everbody should pay $20 for a theme - I think he only mentioned his retirement with 28 to make clear that paying $20 didn't hurt him and everybody else should give what they think a particular theme would be worth for them:

- post a "thank you very much" in some forum the themer reads (here)
- send a postcard of your hometown
- send a picture of you and your new girlfriend having sex in front of the fresh themed computer screen
- send $1
- send $5
- buy the themer a brand new dual G5 (Bill Gates option)
- give the themer a job (Steve Jobs option)
- ...
- whatever

That's the point! No discussion about "should I pay or not" but think about how much you want to give!!
Everybody who says "never" is shitting on the work others did for them!

[smeger]

Originally posted by badidea:
- send a picture of you and your new girlfriend having sex in front of the fresh themed computer screen

That's the gift that keeps on giving!

[NetworkShadow]

Giving a donation is one thing, being forced to buy is another. And themes can't be sold like shareware, like have it expire after a few days. I never buy products I can't try first.

I'm all for donations and think I'll be sending a few $ here and there to the creators of my favorite themes, but if themes start being sold I'd suspect I'd just stick to the free ones and make my own in my free time. It's just like how I'd never pay for desktops, icons, mp3 player skins, or konfab widgets. I can make my own desktops and icons and there are a ton of free ones, and I paid $25 for konfab already why would I spend $5 to $10 on an iTunes controller widget?

As long as there are free themes, I don't think selling themes will work well. I know all my themes I ever make will be free, and I know there are other themers that feel the same way about their themes.
Also I don't think it would be good for the software developers if people had to pay for both the changer and the themes... A lot less people would ever touch themes, it would hurt the whole community.
You have to remember there are a LOT less theme developers for Mac OS X than there are for windows, so I don't think you can really compare the two markets for themes.

[olorin15]

Originally posted by badidea:
neither did he say anything about that everbody should pay $20 for a theme

Ummm, he called this topic "Themes for Sale" not "Let's donate to themers" ... And he's been talking again and again about making money off of themes.

- send a picture of you and your new girlfriend having sex in front of the fresh themed computer screen

Those crazy Germans ...

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Giving a donation is one thing, being forced to buy is another. And themes can't be sold like shareware, like have it expire after a few days. I never buy products I can't try first.

I'm all for donations and think I'll be sending a few $ here and there to the creators of my favorite themes, but if themes start being sold I'd suspect I'd just stick to the free ones and make my own in my free time. It's just like how I'd never pay for desktops, icons, mp3 player skins, or konfab widgets. I can make my own desktops and icons and there are a ton of free ones, and I paid $25 for konfab already why would I spend $5 to $10 on an iTunes controller widget?

As long as there are free themes, I don't think selling themes will work well. I know all my themes I ever make will be free, and I know there are other themers that feel the same way about their themes.
Also I don't think it would be good for the software developers if people had to pay for both the changer and the themes... A lot less people would ever touch themes, it would hurt the whole community.
You have to remember there are a LOT less theme developers for Mac OS X than there are for windows, so I don't think you can really compare the two markets for themes.

I like you because you are the most active guy on the GUI forum.

But it�s not about you you are a themer so maybe you feel a bit strange paying for something you can easily create it�s only normal.
You are not the market in this case. The market is people like me or like me that are more than happy to have an alternative to apple's boring Gui.


*And i do think that you can compare the 2 markets because there is more than one factor involve.
For example Mac people are much more creative and in need for esthetic.
Why do you think a big company like Adobe is making such a big effort towards the Mac community?
Show me a bank that is using Mac, Compare a PB 17� to an IBM ThinkPad�

Don�t be so quick to judge before you have the knowledge to do the math.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
So nobody deserves to get paid? Absurd.

You've been commercialized, of course you wont see it my way.



Chris

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by olorin15:
So did you come here to show off or start a new business or what? Good for you that you retired at 28 ... and you know this guy called Bill Gates has $40 billion in his bank account ... so what the hell does that have to do with OSX themes? Maybe a few people would pay for themes, but not nearly enough to make real $$. This is a bad business idea ... you start charging for themes, and you'll antagonize people. 99% of the people will NOT pay for them. All you'll get is people posting here saying what a son of a ***** you are. The point is (and this has been made before in other threads) that there are many themers out there. If Max started charging for his themes, I'd stop using them. There'd still be Izawa, DSKY, and many others ... do you get the point? Your personal success in life has nothing to do with this thread you started ... I don't even know why you brought it up ...

What the hell is wrong with you relax.

[wibs]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
You are not the market in this case. The market is people like me or like me that are more than happy to have an alternative to apple's boring Gui.

I don't want this to sound flippant, but I would think the primary market for people who buy themes would be the same people who spend hours upon hours not just messing with their themes but going online to discuss themes and customization and the aesthetics of their computer in general. In other words, the people on this forum are the target market. Judging by the forum's reaction as a whole, I think it's fairly apparent what the market thinks of paying for themes.

If someone wants to make a donation, that's great. I'm proud of them. I, on the other hand, am on a college student budget and just made a theme in ThemePark without paying for it, meaning I chase around the "use for free" button for 45 minutes every time I launch it. I could recite that dialogue box text from memory.

I'm not cheap, I bought ShapeShifter and DragThing and Synergy and many shareware programs that I use and feel deserve my money, but when the choice is a bowl of Ramen on Tuesday or editing my gui, I go for the Ramen... and I really like editing my gui.

[Jaey]

ZXSpectrum, themers can charge for themes if they want to. If they do, I doubt many people will buy them. If they don't charge, people will download them for free, maybe a few people here and there will donate to the creator. If you think that themes should be paid for, no one's stopping you from donating a few dollars for every one you download. Themers are giving us an option, to donate or not. It's the user's choice. I don't care if you want to pay for themes. I think that's fine. I do care though, that you want me to pay for themes. I think themes should be free, you don't. We can both have what we want, but you will not convince me to pay for themes.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by wibs:
I don't want this to sound flippant, but I would think the primary market for people who buy themes would be the same people who spend hours upon hours not just messing with their themes but going online to discuss themes and customization and the aesthetics of their computer in general. In other words, the people on this forum are the target market. Judging by the forum's reaction as a whole, I think it's fairly apparent what the market thinks of paying for themes.

If someone wants to make a donation, that's great. I'm proud of them. I, on the other hand, am on a college student budget and just made a theme in ThemePark without paying for it, meaning I chase around the "use for free" button for 45 minutes every time I launch it. I could recite that dialogue box text from memory.


I'm not cheap, I bought ShapeShifter and DragThing and Synergy and many shareware programs that I use and feel deserve my money, but when the choice is a bowl of Ramen on Tuesday or editing my gui, I go for the Ramen... and I really like editing my gui.

Question: how many people you estimate are active on this GUI forum?

Thanks.

[olorin15]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
Question: how many people you estimate are active on this GUI forum?

Thanks.

A lot of people are active, many more are lurking. This is a very good sample of OSX themeing community. Why can't you simply see that we ARE the market you keep talking about, and we are NOT willing to pay for themes in general??? BTW, people are getting angry with you here b/c this topic has been chewed over several times in the last few weeks ... there's no need for this thread to exist. What are you trying to achieve? You are not going to convince people to pay for themes. Maybe donate here and there once in a while - but not pay for every theme you dl. Many people here are college students, some are even in high school This is simply NOT the group to make big $$ off of ... Just listen to us, and stop arguing. You want themers to get rich - donate your own money to them.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by olorin15:
A lot of people are active, many more are lurking. This is a very good sample of OSX themeing community. Why can't you simply see that we ARE the market you keep talking about, and we are NOT willing to pay for themes in general??? BTW, people are getting angry with you here b/c this topic has been chewed over several times in the last few weeks ... there's no need for this thread to exist. What are you trying to achieve? You are not going to convince people to pay for themes. Maybe donate here and there once in a while - but not pay for every theme you dl. Many people here are college students, some are even in high school This is simply NOT the group to make big $$ off of ... Just listen to us, and stop arguing. You want themers to get rich - donate your own money to them.

O.K but let me say this.

Everybody here are thinking in the most basic way which is this money is going out of my pocket why?

This month only on MacUpdate site there were 60,000 downloads of themes, probably with other sites close to 150,000 and we all know that most of them are coming from 2-3 main themers. Most of you are probably downloading directly from the temers site so do you really believe that the 50 artists on this forum are responsible for all of this.

I am thinking $5 a theme but let�s start small $1 a theme. I am sure that 99.9% of the people will pay 1$ for almost any of SWIZ, MAX or BBX themes.

I can assure you that when they will see the first pay cheek coming in a short period of time we will see an increase of 50% in themes quality more themeres out there and much more to choose from. From that point it will only get better.

You are only downloading all the themes because they are free, what you really want is 3-4 good a month do the math.

*I understand your need to protect your close free community it�s more fun but in the end you are just shooting your own foot.

Ps- BBX seems to disagree with you and Max didn�t put that �would you pay for a complete and well done GUI makeover kit� Poll because he felt like.
Along with SWIZ they are all you have at the moment.

[kmkkid]

Hi, I'm Bill Gates I have billions of dollars and can afford to pay for air, therefore we should start charging for air, and to those who can't pay - too bad.

I know themes arnt life critical, but you get the jist of it



Chris

[olorin15]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
O.K but let me say this.

Everybody here are thinking in the most basic way which is this money is going out of my pocket why?

This month only on MacUpdate site there were 60,000 downloads of themes, probably with other sites close to 150,000 and we all know that most of them are coming from 2-3 main themers. Most of you are probably downloading directly from the temers site so do you really believe that the 50 artists on this forum are responsible for all of this.

I am thinking $5 a theme but let�s start small $1 a theme. I am sure that 99.9% of the people will pay 1$ for almost any of SWIZ, MAX or BBX themes.

I can assure you that when they will see the first pay cheek coming in a short period of time we will see an increase of 50% in themes quality more themeres out there and much more to choose from. From that point it will only get better.

You are only downloading all the themes because they are free, what you really want is 3-4 good ones a month do the math.

*I understand your need to protect your close free community it�s more fun but in the end you are just shooting your own foot.

Ps- BBX seems to disagree with you and Max didn�t put that �would you pay for a complete and well done GUI makeover kit� Poll because he felt like.
Along with SWIZ they are all you have at the moment.

Sorry, but you are just a dumbass who got lucky and made a lot of $$ ... (And it'd be nice if you proofread your posts, as they are getting harder and harder to read/understand ...)

First of all, BBX has not produced anything yet - so he has not been a major player in OSX themeing. No offence to BBX - I believe he will deliver in the end. Max and Swiz are good, but also not the only ones. There's Izawa, whom you fail to mention. There are also others out there.

Now, I would not say that I dl other themes just cuz there's nothing else out and they are free. I like a lot of other themes. I hardly ever use Max's or Swis's themes to be honest. So stop thinking in one direction please. 3-4 good themes from Max would not be enough for me - I like variety more than perfection in themes.

And stop giving me numbers of themes being dl'd - this is not a question of being able to multiply by $5 or whatever - it's a question of how many dl WOULD there be once you put a price tag on a theme. You see, your own logic defeats you. You say there are many more people out there who use themes besides the people in this forum. True. Now do you really think that those people who do not care enough about themes to come here and talk about them would actually PAY for them? Maybe I'm wrong ... but I highly doubt it.

And finally, you are free to try selling themes and seeing how it goes. But if this is a business proposition for Max or Swis - take this directly to them. It does NOT belong here in this forum. Write an email to them and explain your ideas.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by olorin15:
Sorry, but you are just a dumbass who got lucky and made a lot of $$ ... (And it'd be nice if you proofread your posts, as they are getting harder and harder to read/understand ...)

First of all, BBX has not produced anything yet - so he has not been a major player in OSX themeing. No offence to BBX - I believe he will deliver in the end. Max and Swiz are good, but also not the only ones. There's Izawa, whom you fail to mention. There are also others out there.

Now, I would not say that I dl other themes just cuz there's nothing else out and they are free. I like a lot of other themes. I hardly ever use Max's or Swis's themes to be honest. So stop thinking in one direction please. 3-4 good themes from Max would not be enough for me - I like variety more than perfection in themes.

And stop giving me numbers of themes being dl'd - this is not a question of being able to multiply by $5 or whatever - it's a question of how many dl WOULD there be once you put a price tag on a theme. You see, your own logic defeats you. You say there are many more people out there who use themes besides the people in this forum. True. Now do you really think that those people who do not care enough about themes to come here and talk about them would actually PAY for them? Maybe I'm wrong ... but I highly doubt it.

And finally, you are free to try selling themes and seeing how it goes. But if this is a business proposition for Max or Swis - take this directly to them. It does NOT belong here in this forum. Write an email to them and explain your ideas.

You are so nice I am sorry that my English disappoint you but I wasn�t really born in California you know.

I have seen people like you many times and I hope that you are a very young man or you will have a problem in life.



P.s - I have no intention to sell any themes I am only trying to help.

[olorin15]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
You are so nice I am sorry that my English disappoint you but I wasn�t really born in California you know.

I have seen people like you many times and I hope that you are a very young man or you will have a problem in life.

P.s - I have no intention to sell any themes I am only trying to help.

1. I was not born in CA either, or in the US for that matter But I'm sure they have commas and periods in Danish, right? You English started off much better in the beggining of this thread ...

2. What problem am I going to have in life? Just b/c I think your suggestion is silly and you keep trying to force it on us needlessly? Very interesting standpoint ... Maybe I'm not going to make millions, but then again maybe I do not want to. What is wrong with me having a different opinion? Why do you think you should come here and teach people how to live their lives? I like mine right now, thank you very much.

3. Whom are you trying to help? Me? I like the way things are now. Most people who have responded seem to agree ... As I said - if you are trying to help swiz, maybe you could do it by email?

[quandarry]

how long are you guys going to feed this fool?

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by olorin15:
1. I was not born in CA either, or in the US for that matter But I'm sure they have commas and periods in Danish, right? You English started off much better in the beggining of this thread ...

2. What problem am I going to have in life? Just b/c I think your suggestion is silly and you keep trying to force it on us needlessly? Very interesting standpoint ... Maybe I'm not going to make millions, but then again maybe I do not want to. What is wrong with me having a different opinion? Why do you think you should come here and teach people how to live their lives? I like mine right now, thank you very much.

3. Whom are you trying to help? Me? I like the way things are now. Most people who have responded seem to agree ... As I said - if you are trying to help swiz, maybe you could do it by email?

�force it on us?� - Who is telling you to replay leave this post if you find it silly.

�Come here and teach people how to live their lives?� � very dramatic is this your life?


And please stop with the millions ******** looks like you care more about money than i do.

[Frisbee]

Hmm... Has anyone actually agreed to ZXspectrum's ideas? Just a thought. ZX, the themers are happy, they don't feel as if they would produce more and/or faster if they were paid, and no one wants to pay for them, anyway. Your point is empty and hated. Let this be the last post on this thread. Let it die.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Frisbee:
Hmm... Has anyone actually agreed to ZXspectrum's ideas? Just a thought. ZX, the themers are happy, they don't feel as if they would produce more and/or faster if they were paid, and no one wants to pay for them, anyway. Your point is empty and hated. Let this be the last post on this thread. Let it die.

Skin suites do sell on the PC - the big drawback being that 99% of them blow giant mediocre chunks. Even so, there are people actively developing them, selling them and buying them every day. People pay for fonts, screensavers, keynote and iDVD themes, etc - there's no reason why themes should be seen any differently really, assuming they're well executed and extensive enough that charging for them can be justified. Whether or not a guy could actually make any money selling them on the Mac is a different thing altogether. But really, if a guy wanted to charge for his theme I say all the power to him - it had probably better be pretty damned good, though. People would probably want to see pro-quality on par with a commercial interface before they'd be willing to pay for it I think - most people are pretty cheap.

To see it as greed on the themer's part isn't really fair - spending the time making the things, paying for distribution and hosting (especially if they're popular and generate a lot of traffic)... this all costs money (and at best the guy would maybe cover costs). People already expect frequent updates, variants, everything patched, etc. - and they're getting all this stuff for free - the more popuar themers would only be justified in charging small one-time or subscription-based fees for their investment as far as I'm concerned.

A lot of people whine that they've already paid for ShapeShifter, so why the hell should they pay for a theme? We paid for MacOSX, so why the hell should we pay for apps to run on it, right? Same thing kids.

The argument that Apple could sue the themer is ridiculous... assuming the themer was distributing SS theme(s) and not modified extras.rsrc files - there is a huge difference, actually. SS themes are modules for commercial software - not only does the user/developer never see the extras.rsrc, but the files within the system are never touched/manipulated/moved/replaced anyways.

I'm not saying I plan on charging for Omega on the Mac (I don't), but if these things really took off and became expensive to create and distribute (and I felt that what I was doing was cool/pro-quality enough to justify charging for), I might actually consider it. Why not? Heck, if I were actually doing this stuff for a living as opposed to squeezing it in between commercial work, I might actually be able to spit these things out regularly




Last edited by bbxstudio on 02-03-2004 at 01:27 AM

[Tarambana]

Hi!


I agree with BBX on most part, yet I am not sure if it is feasible to make profit from themes -enough at least to pay for all those hours they spend-. Yeah, I know there is a market for PC's �somewhat-, though I have never paid: I always downloaded the free ones �back in teh days of the dark side �

Anyway, as I said I think this thread is quite useless as themers will or will not ask for money in exchange for themes, as they see fit. BTW, BBX saying that he might do it, does not imply at all that he will, nor that it would be working �even� for him, or that people would buy themes.

In my most modest opinion, I can't understand what is your interest on convincing us all on paying for theme's benefits: I am sure we �and themers specially� do understand it. And this is becoming quite a circular discussion, also. I believe it would be good for you to get in touch with themers and help them out with this: maybe it is a truly good idea.

Also, did anyone think of the problems that would derive from it? I mean, should we pay for themes, I am sure some smarta$$ would pirate those themes. I think except themers gain greater control over their product, it would be quite complicated.


Tara.

[NetworkShadow]

Xspectrum please donate all you want to Max, swiz, or any one of us themers but don't push your paid theme idea anymore until you can see the issue from the themer's point of view, or from the perspective of a poor college or high school student (who may not have a credit card), since most theme downloads come from students... Maybe you have deep pockets, but not a lot do. I think it would really hurt the Mac theme community to charge for themes.

Originally posted by quandarry:
how long are you guys going to feed this fool?

Good point... I've made my point and I see no reason to keep posting.

[huggeebear]

but the thing is...why should unsanity make $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ from other people's labour of love? i don't understand it? why do you let them???

[mrfrost]

How come the last ZXspectrum post is "last edited by bbxstudio"?

Ah well, it's getting late.

[badidea]

Originally posted by mrfrost:
How come the last ZXspectrum post is "last edited by bbxstudio"?

Ah well, it's getting late.

Because he copy/pasted a part of BBX's post into his own post...



...and to bring this thread to a hopfully good end for everybody :

I think you are all missing the point ZXspectrum is talking about!
I think he never meant that every themer should try to get money for their work (who really wants to pay for something that you can also get for free???) - I think the whole purpose was to find a market for PRO-Themes!

Definition of a PRO-Theme:
High quality theme including complete makeover with icons, desktops, safari skins, itunes skins, startup- and loginscreen...just like Omega promises to be.

So far I don't know any theme that offers all that for OSX and that's why you have to find/make your own desktop and icons if you want everything to go well together with the theme of your choice.

Right now I am using Neos and I am using my own custom made desktop with it but I am still looking for the perfect icon makeover!
I don't have the time neither do I want to make my own icons for it!

I think ZXspectrum's point was that he (and also me) is hoping that more themers would make those complete makeovers if they would get paid for this timeconsuming lot of work!

(example from the non-theme-but-software-world: you can use the finder for burning CDs for free but still there is a large market for Toast because many users want a better app for this and are willing to pay for that)

I am looking forward to Omega very much because it promises to have all I mentioned above but if I don't like Omega when it comes out then there will still be no theme available that can give me this complete makeover I was hoping for along time now!
That's why I would be very glad if more themers would start to offer all this work for us!

Better for free but I would also pay for it if there is no other way to make them do it!
(thanks BBX for not charging )

[Patcarla]

Originally posted by mrfrost:
How come the last ZXspectrum post is "last edited by bbxstudio"?

Ah well, it's getting late.

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:

I'm not saying I plan on charging for Omega on the Mac (I don't), but if these things really took off and became expensive to create and distribute (and I felt that what I was doing was cool/pro-quality enough to justify charging for), I might actually consider it. Why not? Heck, if I were actually doing this stuff for a living as opposed to squeezing it in between commercial work, I might actually be able to spit these things out regularly
Last edited by bbxstudio on 02-03-2004 at 01:27 AM

??? I'm confused too..

[Patcarla]

Oops.. Just saw the reply by badidea..

[lenox]

ZXspectrum: your weak grasp of the english language makes it a little tough for us (mainly english speakers) to understand you. Sorry. It's possible that people are reading your posts and thinking "flamebait".

I understand that, were themes to cost money, they would have to really be nice, complete works of art. I also understand that 95% of the themes out there aren't even close to that level of quality. That is not to say that I dislike most themes out there. They are just part of a bigger picture. The user still has to do quite a bit of work to customize things the way they want.

And, now that I think about it, I wouldn't _want_ a complete GUI overhaul that does all the customization for me! I also certainly wouldn't like to be forced to pay for such a thing. I (being a graphic artist) would much rather do the customization myself, if I felt it necessary.

Perhaps the ones creating the tools to make it easy to change themes/iconsets/etc should possibly be sharing their income from aforementioned products with the theme creators. That sounds like the best idea to me. Perhaps they are already doing this! Who knows?

[Fonzie]

Personally I couldn't care less if Max, Swiz, BBX or any other established themer would charge say $10 for their hard work. As some people say; "think about those who don't have a creditcard or the money to pay for themes". I say; why on earth should the themer care for those who don't have the money to pay for themes!? Let the themers do what suits them best. Look at www.pixtudio.com - they have sold themes for Windowblinds for a long time and people actually pay for the themes because they get a whole lot of extras to play with.

[goMac]

You do realize this is easier said than done. In order to do this properly:

1) A pay system would have to be put into place
2) Downloads would have to be managed through one central server that is trusted, most likely through a special application.
3) The end result would be themes using DRM.

This would be exactly like iTMS. You'd be crazy to sell themes without DRM. It wouldn't take long for those themes to be shared through the usual channels.

All in all I'm not sure its worth the effort.

[chezpaul]

I think selling themes is a good idea. Everyone of you guys rich or poor do have enough money to buy yourself a computer (a mac no less) and an internet connection.

ZX was only saying (as an accomplished businessman) that he doesn't understand why they don't realize that it's not that big of a jump to sale a theme.

Gomac... U're almost saying no one should sale anything on the internet because a piracy.. !!!! Strange thought. Just add a serialization into Shapshifter that unlocks the themes you buy and let pirates be pirates, just try to make it hard for them and that's that.

Max, Swiz, IZA and others.. Why not make a free version and a for sale version. Let someone try out the theme and if they like it then let them buy it. I really don't see where you can go wrong.

And for all those crying foul... Just stay with the OS X original themes or the free ones. What can I say.

That's my two cents...

[goMac]

Originally posted by chezpaul:
Gomac... U're almost saying no one should sale anything on the internet because a piracy.. !!!! Strange thought. Just add a serialization into Shapshifter that unlocks the themes you buy and let pirates be pirates, just try to make it hard for them and that's that.

Its not as simple as "adding a serialization". Somehow inside the theme needs to be info on which machines the theme can run on. Yes, that info is serialized, but the info needs to somehow get there in the first place. That means you need a server managing downloads of these themes (which won't work though normal web sites) managed through an application which will add DRM info. This means the theme changer would have to contact the authentication server everytime someone wants to unlock a theme.

And whats the point of adding serialization into a theme when there is no DRM to manage it? Its the same system we have now.

The only way something like itms reduces piracy is DRM. You can't turn around and share music files downloaded via iTunes.