[Zeeb]

I'm all for diplomacy with the Middle East. We've run roughshod over that whole area for too long. However, I think comments like this--even though they may be taken out of context--create a somewhat subservient relationship and makes Obama sound as if he looks up to the King:

Shortly after his arrival Wednesday in Saudi Arabia, Obama and King Abdullah went to the Saudi ruler's farm for a welcoming reception. The two leaders met privately afterward.

Obama said he was "struck by his wisdom and his graciousness. Obviously the United States and Saudi Arabia have a long history of friendship. We have a strategic relationship."

"And as I take this trip -- and I will be visiting Cairo tomorrow, I thought it was very important to come to the place where Islam began and to seek his majesty's counsel and to discuss with him many of the issues that we confront here in the Middle East," he added.


Obama: U.S., Saudi Arabia have 'strategic relationship' - CNN.com

[Dakar V]

Subserviant? Not sure I see that. Looks more like buttering up.

[SpaceMonkey]

Well, here's what King Abdullah said. The horrors:

I thank you, Mr. President, for the kind words and the kind sentiments expressed within them. I am not surprised, given the historic and strategic ties between our two countries, I believe that go back to the time of the meeting between the late Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the late King Abdul-Aziz.

I also want to express my best wishes to the friendly American people who are represented by a distinguished man who deserves to be in this position.

When will all of this civility finally end?!?!?!

If it helps any, in al Qaeda's reaction to the visit they call U.S. policy "antagonizing" and they clearly think that we control the Saudis and the Egyptians, not the other way around. Go us!

[Atheist]

More proof Osamabama is out to destroy the United States. Sad days ahead.

[Zeeb]

I suppose it was the "seek his majesty's counsel" part that peaked my interest. I'm not used to hearing U.S. Presidents use that exact language when interacting with the leader of a Kingdom but I haven't done any Google searches on this assertion I admit. Its not as if the U.S. hasn't been beholden to the middle east for years anyway I suppose.

[SpaceMonkey]

"His majesty" is official protocol. If Obama were a monarch he'd be called that, too.

[Dork.]

This account of the visit is even more scandalous:

“I am not surprised, given the historically strategic ties between our two countries, I believe that go back to the time of the meeting between the late Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the late King Abdul Aziz,” King Abdullah said. “I also want to express my best wishes to the friendly American people who are represented by a distinguished man who deserves to be in this position.”

Mr. Obama replied, “Shoukran,” using the Arabic for “Thank you.”

He's been hiding his true Muslim identity, but let it slip here when he spoke Arabic! I'm sure Obama's knowledge of Arabic came in handy when he planned 9/11 with Bill Ayers....

[Shaddim]

I see nothing wrong with his comments. He'll be holding hands with him in no time.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I see nothing wrong with his comments. He'll be holding hands with him in no time.

Exactly.

[SpaceMonkey]

Maybe they talked about burgers. The Obamas love burgers.

[kobi]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I see nothing wrong with his comments. He'll be holding hands with him in no time.

Hopefully he won't kiss him like W and H.W. Bush did. We already know that President Obama isn't taking the millions in gifts from the Saudi king like the Bush family, so there's a start.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by kobi 

Hopefully he won't kiss him like W and H.W. Bush did. We already know that President Obama isn't taking the millions in gifts from the Saudi king like the Bush family, so there's a start.

I wouldn't say that, from what I understand the king is a rather smooth talker, I have no doubt that he'll beguile Obama in time. No one can resist his masculine charms.

[Zeeb]

Sure, I'm certainly not saying the Bush administration didn't ingratiate itself to the King as well and I didn't start this conversation to inflame the whole Muslim conspiracy thing--but rather how heads of state communicate with one another. I'm sure there are other examples with other leaders throughout history that have interesting exchanges.

The King's response to Obama had a different tone. Certainly respectful, but more like a proud father. The exchange seemed as if Obama was the good son come to gain the counsel of the wise elder in how to resolve some of the issues in the region. Obama is the leader of quite a powerful nation, and the issue I have is that he makes sure he's regarded at least on an equal footing. Which he may very well be--I just had doubts from these statements that I thought might be interesting to discuss.

[Chongo]

At least he's embracing his Muslim roots now.
The Emergence of President Obama's Muslim Roots - Political Punch

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

At least he's embracing his Muslim roots now.
The Emergence of President Obama's Muslim Roots - Political Punch

Wow the comments posted to that article are great.

[Wiskedjak]

He was being polite and a gracious guest. Given how the US generally feels about the Middle East, I can see how you might have thought of that as "subservient".

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

At least he's embracing his Muslim roots now.
The Emergence of President Obama's Muslim Roots - Political Punch

I can actually understand and appreciate this aspect of Obama's presidency Chongo. I get the irony of it sure, but I guess I'd ask; what would you expect? It makes sense to me that this Administration would attempt to "reach out" in a unique manner using Obama's unique perspective in so doing. This new approach to foreign policy is likely one of the few mandates this President was actually granted by the electorate.

That said, I'm not sure too many of Middle Eastern descent are accepting of these "roots" to the degree that it will make much difference and in fact, I question whether or not his foreign policy is being viewed as "weak". I think his decision to allow our marines to plug a couple of pirate thugs in the head likely garnered more respect than anything else.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I can actually understand and appreciate this aspect of Obama's presidency Chongo. I get the irony of it sure, but I guess I'd ask; what would you expect? It makes sense to me that this Administration would attempt to "reach out" in a unique manner using Obama's unique perspective in so doing. This new approach to foreign policy is likely one of the few mandates this President was actually granted by the electorate.

That said, I'm not sure too many of Middle Eastern descent are accepting of these "roots" to the degree that it will make much difference and in fact, I question whether or not his foreign policy is being viewed as "weak". I think his decision to allow our marines to plug a couple of pirate thugs in the head likely garnered more respect than anything else.

What I am waiting for is for the secularists who applauded the " American public does not considering itself to be “a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation.”nation" statement, to comment on the the "US is one of the world's largest Muslim nations" statement he made .

[stumblinmike]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

What I am waiting for is for the secularists who applauded the " American public does not considering itself to be “a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation.”nation" statement, to comment on the the "US is one of the world's largest Muslim nations" statement he made .

You GOT to get off that FOX news Chongo..it's as bad as drugs! Killing your brain cells as you watch..your a shell of your former self, man. Stop it while you can!

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Stumblin, you're not exactly one to talk when it comes to dead brain cells.

Anyway, what Obama said:

"And one of the points I want to make is; is that if you actually took the number of Muslims [sic] Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world. And so there's got to be a better dialogue and a better understanding between the two peoples."

Even NPR points out he was wrong on the matter of population.

Not to mention, the point itself is just plain weird- no matter what the population of Muslims, the US would never be a "Muslim nation" because we're not a nation with any official religion the way 'Muslim nations' actually are. I understand he was trying (as usual) to pander to the crowd, but it was a pretty goofy statement all around.

[stumblinmike]

Wishful thinking/Freudian slip by the President? Maybe you guys ARE right. Just to be safe, I won't be shaving anytime soon

[besson3c]

Obama is a racist!

[Hawkeye_a]

I agree with the OP. The speeches and comments from the president with regard to the Muslim world and to Iran, make it seem like he is looking for their approval and/or forgiveness.

Where many criticize Bush for the way he engaged in International politics and conflicts, i would have preferred a withdrawal from that arena instead of what Obama is doing.

So far in his presidency he has made more public and highly publicized appearances to the Muslim world than anywhere else imo. And it is what i feared when he was nominated to run for the Presidency.

It's just six months into his presidency so i am still cautiously optimistic.... but, i won't sugar-coat it; so far the international appearances and policies are, imo, an embarrassment.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I agree with the OP. The speeches and comments from the president with regard to the Muslim world and to Iran, make it seem like he is looking for their approval and/or forgiveness.

A little bit of "looking for forgiveness" might go a long way towards ending hostilities between the Western world and the Muslim world.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

A little bit of "looking for forgiveness" might go a long way towards ending hostilities between the Western world and the Muslim world.

good one.

Also, i doubt an apology from the West will appease the situation.... 1400 years of dealing(wars, appeasement, etc) with that civilization didn't lead to peace.

But who knows; we now have a half-muslim president who goes out of his way to gain their acceptance/approval.

I wonder if i'll ever see a half-christian/jewish leader of a muslim nation. (some very fundamental differences there, if you know what i mean)

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I agree with the OP. The speeches and comments from the president with regard to the Muslim world and to Iran, make it seem like he is looking for their approval and/or forgiveness.

Your threshold for what is "looking for their approval and/or forgiveness" is apparently very low. What Obama said was that he thought it was important to get the King of Saudi Arabia's advice. How is this controversial? It's normal behavior to want to take the temperature of one of our key strategic relationships in the region. It implies subservience only if you think that being polite is a sign of weakness.

AMERICA F*CK YEAH!!!

[ebuddy]

George W Bush did it!

[besson3c]

That's because George W. Bush is a racist!

Don't mind me, I'm just being an ass.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

George W Bush did it!

Sorry,couldn't help myself.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Sorry,couldn't help myself.

Yep. After 8 years of blaming Clinton for everything bad, you're probably gonna have to get used to it.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

A little bit of "looking for forgiveness" might go a long way towards ending hostilities between the Western world and the Muslim world.

Okay, we forgive them.

Now what?

[dcmacdaddy]

Doesn't seem subservient to me. Respectful, attentive, and (IMO) properly deferential considering Obama is on the King's turf and is also the new guy in charge of the US. The Saudi king has dealt with what, 4 or 5 previous US presidents? For Obama to come in all high and mighty and Mr. Know-it-All would be arrogant, poor manners, and definitely not good protocol for establishing a rapport with the guy who controls most of the oil we import. Look how much trouble Sarkozy caused when he joined the European political stage and started acting imperious and dominant. He rubbed the wrong way quite a few of his European peers before he settled down. I think modesty and deference will get one further ahead in life--even for heads of state--that bluster and showmanship. But that's just me.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

For Obama to come in all high and mighty and Mr. Know-it-All would be arrogant, poor manners,

You're right. He saves that for American taxpayers!

(By the way, the same is true of most politicians.)

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Yep. After 8 years of blaming Clinton for everything bad, you're probably gonna have to get used to it.

It's one thing for us forum schleps to do it, it's another thing entirely when it becomes part of the Obama doctrine.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

More proof Osamabama is out to destroy the United States. Sad days ahead.

Exactly. When was the last time a Mooslim leader declared in US territory that Islam is not at war with the West? And when was the last time that a US president tried to renew diplomatic relations with a RELIGION?

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

I'm all for diplomacy with the Middle East. We've run roughshod over that whole area for too long. However, I think comments like this--even though they may be taken out of context--create a somewhat subservient relationship and makes Obama sound as if he looks up to the King:

Shortly after his arrival Wednesday in Saudi Arabia, Obama and King Abdullah went to the Saudi ruler's farm for a welcoming reception. The two leaders met privately afterward.

Obama said he was "struck by his wisdom and his graciousness. Obviously the United States and Saudi Arabia have a long history of friendship. We have a strategic relationship."

"And as I take this trip -- and I will be visiting Cairo tomorrow, I thought it was very important to come to the place where Islam began and to seek his majesty's counsel and to discuss with him many of the issues that we confront here in the Middle East," he added.


Obama: U.S., Saudi Arabia have 'strategic relationship' - CNN.com

What do you mean "WE'VE" run roughshod over that area for far too long? I do believe it was Saddam Hussein that invaded his neighbor a while back.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

What do you mean "WE'VE" run roughshod over that area for far too long? I do believe it was Saddam Hussein that invaded his neighbor a while back.

Hmm, how about the assassination of the Iranian leader Mossadegh in 1953? We put in place the Shah who was a tyrant to his own people but a "good friend" to the US.
And then there was the Iranian hostage crisis, payback for our continued interference in Iranian internal politics by our continued support for the Shah.

Oh yeah, and then we got involved in the invasion and occupation of Lebanon. (Israel was trying to oust Syria/PLO from Lebanon and we were trying to promote Christian, Pro-Western factions against the Iranian influence.) Do you remember that bit of history? It cost us the lives of 241 American soldiers.

And then there was the accidental shooting down of the Iran Air jet. (I truly believe this was an accident and not some nefarious anti-Iranian plot. But the motivation for the shoot-down was irrelevant to Iranians and their anti-US hatred.)


That's just a bit of the US involvement in the Middle East that was for the benefit of the US at the expense of the Middle East countries we dealt with. And I didn't even mention the war in Iraq and overthrow of Saddam Hussein. Also, none of this takes into account the anti-US sentiment created by our never-ending support for Israel in her desire to oust/eliminate Palestinians from the disputed territories. (While this was not a primary reason for anti-US sentiment in the Middle East--Most of the other Arab and/or Muslim nations in the Middle East don't want the Palestinians either--it certainly gave those who opposed the US more fuel for their hatred of the US.)

[ctt1wbw]

You mention stuff we did, but you fail to mention stuff they do to themselves. I'm sure the Kuwaitis would think differently.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

You mention stuff we did, but you fail to mention stuff they do to themselves. I'm sure the Kuwaitis would think differently.

No doubt there is plenty of conflict among nations within the Middle East. But you took offense at the statement about what WE did. And WE did do some bad things in the Middle East that caused folks who live there to have animosity and hatred towards us. That does not make the bad things done by Saddam Hussein or the Shah of Iran or the Saudi Committee for the Propagation of Virtue more or less bad. It just means WE did some bad things in the Middle East in addition to the bad things done by the local political factions.

You've got to remember, when it comes to political strife in the Middle East, EVERY country who has had involvement in that region has some blood on their hands.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

You mention stuff we did, but you fail to mention stuff they do to themselves. I'm sure the Kuwaitis would think differently.

True enough. But, that doesn't mean we need to lower ourselves to that level.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

True enough. But, that doesn't mean we need to lower ourselves to that level.

It also doesn't mean we have to constantly apologize for anything. Every nation/group/race/creed/religion in the freakin' world has had bad stuff done to them by someone else. EVERYBODY.

Yet most everybody else in the world doesn't get constant attention and asskissing over it.

Native Americans were treated horribly. Gee, I can't remember the last time I heard about any of them crashing airplanes into buildings due to their plight. Can't recall the last time the entire world had to stop whatever else it was doing and go fight a war on their behalf. I can't recall the last time any world leader went to seek their council, kiss their ass, and assure them that we're not at war with their religion.

Now, that's ONE example. Pick your own out of endless choices among EVERYONE ELSE in the freakin' world.

There's nothing really all that special about the Middle East. The sooner there's a true alternative to oil, and the sooner the rest of us can get out of that region for good, and leave them to do whatever it was they were doing before being soooooo unfairly burdened with possessing one of the worlds most valuable resources (oh yes, and being soooooooo terribly picked on by a nation the size of an anthill next to Mt. Everest), the freakin' better.

[ctt1wbw]

My sentiments exactly. What makes Islam and Mooslims so special that we have to kiss their asses every day?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

That's just a bit of the US involvement in the Middle East that was for the benefit of the US at the expense of the Middle East countries we dealt with. And I didn't even mention the war in Iraq and overthrow of Saddam Hussein. Also, none of this takes into account the anti-US sentiment created by our never-ending support for Israel in her desire to oust/eliminate Palestinians from the disputed territories. (While this was not a primary reason for anti-US sentiment in the Middle East--Most of the other Arab and/or Muslim nations in the Middle East don't want the Palestinians either--it certainly gave those who opposed the US more fuel for their hatred of the US.)

While I grant you our policy of Cold War fears led to a great many foreign policy blunders, an even greater amount of blood has been shed in liberating Muslims. Any such discussion of US imperialism should be tempered with not only the imperialism of others, but of the sacrifices we've made in each of the examples you present. The war in Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein has ended an arms race between Iran and Iraq both with mutual desire to destroy Israel and has liberated many of those who disagreed with Saddam's policies and tactics. I dare say the silent, victimized majority including women and children through several national elections, a constitution, a new government, burgeoning education and economic conditions that did not exist prior and the list goes on... Our sacrifices in Kuwait, Afghanistan, Somalia, and Bosnia to name a few more...

So, yeah. We've done a lot of horrible things from the premise of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", but we've also done a great amount of good around the globe in terms of humanitarian aide. I think it would do well for a sitting President of the US to not only highlight what we've done worthy of apology, but what we've done worthy of praise.

[ctt1wbw]

US imperialism... yeah. Like ending WW2. Or kicking out Hussein from Kuwait. Or dethroning him, such a nice guy he was. Yeah, US imperialism... those words get old.

[SpaceMonkey]

If you've actually been paying attention to what Obama was saying during his Cairo speech, you'd know that he wasn't just apologizing for the United States. He had sharp words for those who deny the Holocaust, for example.

But please, continue with your pre-programmed debate.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

While I grant you our policy of Cold War fears led to a great many foreign policy blunders, an even greater amount of blood has been shed in liberating Muslims. Any such discussion of US imperialism should be tempered with not only the imperialism of others, but of the sacrifices we've made in each of the examples you present. The war in Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein has ended an arms race between Iran and Iraq both with mutual desire to destroy Israel and has liberated many of those who disagreed with Saddam's policies and tactics. I dare say the silent, victimized majority including women and children through several national elections, a constitution, a new government, burgeoning education and economic conditions that did not exist prior and the list goes on... Our sacrifices in Kuwait, Afghanistan, Somalia, and Bosnia to name a few more...

So, yeah. We've done a lot of horrible things from the premise of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", but we've also done a great amount of good around the globe in terms of humanitarian aide. I think it would do well for a sitting President of the US to not only highlight what we've done worthy of apology, but what we've done worthy of praise.

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

US imperialism... yeah. Like ending WW2. Or kicking out Hussein from Kuwait. Or dethroning him, such a nice guy he was. Yeah, US imperialism... those words get old.

Ummm, B&B guy, ebuddy is the first and only person to argue about this matter in the context of US imperialism. I have not argued in any way that the "bad" things we did in the Middle East were an example of US imperialism. So, where does the US imperialism argument come from? A straw-man perhaps?

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Native Americans were treated horribly. Gee, I can't remember the last time I heard about any of them crashing airplanes into buildings due to their plight. Can't recall the last time the entire world had to stop whatever else it was doing and go fight a war on their behalf. I can't recall the last time any world leader went to seek their council, kiss their ass, and assure them that we're not at war with their religion.

Probably because they don't have a lot of money. But in the heyday of racial politics in America the 1960s and '70s, there were certainly some high-profile incidents.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

While I grant you our policy of Cold War fears led to a great many foreign policy blunders, an even greater amount of blood has been shed in liberating Muslims. Any such discussion of US imperialism should be tempered with not only the imperialism of others, but of the sacrifices we've made in each of the examples you present. The war in Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein has ended an arms race between Iran and Iraq both with mutual desire to destroy Israel and has liberated many of those who disagreed with Saddam's policies and tactics. I dare say the silent, victimized majority including women and children through several national elections, a constitution, a new government, burgeoning education and economic conditions that did not exist prior and the list goes on... Our sacrifices in Kuwait, Afghanistan, Somalia, and Bosnia to name a few more...

So, yeah. We've done a lot of horrible things from the premise of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", but we've also done a great amount of good around the globe in terms of humanitarian aide. I think it would do well for a sitting President of the US to not only highlight what we've done worthy of apology, but what we've done worthy of praise.

Did you actually hear Obama's speech or read the transcript? If so, you would see where he himself highlighted the sacrifices made by the US on behalf of those in the Middle East.

[SpaceMonkey]

I can't escape the feeling that some members of this forum are arguing from an alternate dimension where it isn't the case that large numbers of people in the Middle East actually do think that the United States is at war with their religion. Whatever the good the United States has done in the Middle East (and I agree wholeheartedly that we've done some good) you have to deal with the facts on the ground, as it were.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

My sentiments exactly. What makes Islam and Mooslims so special that we have to kiss their asses every day?

Probably all that oil they have.