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Diggory Laycock · Sep 15, 2004, 06:15 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3658200.stm

effgee · Sep 15, 2004, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3658200.stm

I'm curious - how much VAT are you guys paying in the UK? Here in Germany it's 16% (included in the 99c/67p).

Diggory Laycock · Sep 15, 2004, 07:43 AM

17.25%

sambeau · Sep 15, 2004, 08:30 AM

I guess its our own fault for not adopting the Euro..

Gee4orce · Sep 15, 2004, 08:34 AM

What's that - us Brits getting ripped off ? Never.

Sounds like it's the music companies that call the shots anyway. What happened to the investigation into CD prices ?

...and why has nobody mentioned that Apple might be able to loose a rather large chunk of itself to...Apple (corp) ?

sambeau · Sep 15, 2004, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
...and why has nobody mentioned that Apple might be able to loose a rather large chunk of itself to...Apple (corp) ?

Have a little dig a few days back..

Simon X · Sep 15, 2004, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
17.25%

UK VAT is 17.5% Can't be any less just for the iTMS, can it?

TETENAL · Sep 15, 2004, 10:30 AM

The iTMS is located in Luxembourg. Luxembourg has a VAT of 15% which is already lowest in the EU. Luxembourg also has a reduced VAT of 6% for energy and plants and a very reduced VAT of 3% for food, clothes, books, concerts, theatre and other stuff including "copyrights". The iTMS pays VAT to Luxembourg at the Luxembourg VAT rate. I don't know, but it's possible that the music downloads count as "copyright" and iTMS is only paying 3% VAT (the iTMS bills don't show VAT which is illegal by German VAT Law, but that's the way it is).

kenazo · Sep 15, 2004, 11:26 AM

Hey do you think the CA can attack Apple Hardware pricing next? I'm more concerned about 40% higher prices on a �1000 purchase than a sub-�1 song.

fireside · Sep 15, 2004, 11:31 AM

whats VAT?

Angus_D · Sep 15, 2004, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by fireside:
whats VAT?

Value Added Tax. It's a bit like sales tax, but not.

kennethmac2000 · Sep 15, 2004, 03:28 PM

Whilst it is of course undoubtedly true that if the United Kingdom was part of the third stage of economic and monetary union (the euro), there is no way that Apple could get away with charging anything other than 99 c per track here, that is not what the Consumers' Association (CA) complaint to the Office of Fair Trading today is about.

The European Union is a single market (which, for reference, was extended to Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein in 1994 by the European Economic Area Agreement). The basic tenet of the single market is "the four freedoms": freedom of movement of people, freedom of movement of capital, freedom of movement of goods and freedom of movement of services.

By any objective analysis, the iTunes Music Store clearly fits into at least one of the above categories, and, therefore its wares, if they are going to be sold in the Union at all, should be available to people everywhere in the Union on a non-discriminatory basis.

As someone rightly commented in response to the MacNN news story on this issue, Apple should, as a private enterprise, be free to set its UK pricing at whatever level it likes. Subject to reasonable constraints - anti-trust law being perhaps the most obvious - I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

The issue here is not whether Apple should be able to set the prices for its UK offering at a level of its choosing. Rather, it is whether it should be able to prevent UK consumers from purchasing from any iTMS in the European Union. Even a tacit understanding of Community law would lead one to the conclusion that doing so is illegal and I would guess that the CA's case would have a fairly robust chance of success at the Court of First Instance should it get that far.

Whilst a reduction in UK iTMS pricing would be welcome, Apple really must start complying with single market rules and let those resident in any Union or EEA member state buy from any Union or EEA iTMS.

Shaddim · Sep 15, 2004, 03:55 PM

I thought you Brits used the Euro too (as well as the pound)?

voodoo · Sep 15, 2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I thought you Brits used the Euro too (as well as the pound)?

no they only use pounds. they are behind like that

effgee · Sep 15, 2004, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
... The issue here is not whether Apple should be able to set the prices for its UK offering at a level of its choosing. Rather, it is whether it should be able to prevent UK consumers from purchasing from any iTMS in the European Union. ...

I guess another question would be whether or not it might be our good buddies, the music industry, preventing "country to country" sales in Europe - due to "licensing issues".

kennethmac2000 · Sep 15, 2004, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by effgee:
I guess another question would be whether or not it might be our good buddies, the music industry, preventing "country to country" sales in Europe - due to "licensing issues".

Well, when the music industry starts an online retail channel of its own, I'll see that they are properly taken to task for any breach of Community law.

In the meantime, I believe it is Apple that runs the iTunes Music Store, not the music industry. It is them, therefore, that must answer at the bar of European justice.

It is actually quite simple: if Apple was unable to launch an iTunes Music Store that complies fully with the laws of the Union's internal market, then, clearly, they should not have launched it at all. Fairly uncomplicated I feel.

effgee · Sep 15, 2004, 07:09 PM

I certainly have no love for the music industry and their various rip-off tactics but I'm quite certain that there's a few things that you're not taking into consideration ...

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Well, when the music industry starts an online retail channel of its own, I'll see that they are properly taken to task for any breach of Community law.

If the music industry's licensing methods weren't in compliance with EEC law, do you think they'd be allowed to continue their practices? IMHO, it would be an interesting idea to see if a Brit can buy a regular music CD from a German online store (or vice versa) to see if that'd work but I'm too lazy to look into this now.

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
In the meantime, I believe it is Apple that runs the iTunes Music Store, not the music industry. It is them, therefore, that must answer at the bar of European justice.

I'm far from being an Apple apologist or a believer that they're infallible but I think it's safe to assume that the Apple folks have put considerable resources into making sure they're doing business in compliance with local laws. Again, it might be a nifty idea to check into the terms and conditions which customers have to agree with before purchasing music from the iTMS - alas, I don't really feel like reading through x-hundred pages of legalese right now, either. I buy all my music from the US iTMS, so I've never bothered checking into that European stuff.

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
It is actually quite simple: if Apple was unable to launch an iTunes Music Store that complies fully with the laws of the Union's internal market, then, clearly, they should not have launched it at all. Fairly uncomplicated I feel.

Not sarcastic, but an honest question - are you an expert in EEC law? I'm not but I am fairly sure that it's a lot more complicated than that.

Diggory Laycock · Sep 15, 2004, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by effgee:
it would be an interesting idea to see if a Brit can buy a regular music CD from a German online store (or vice versa) to see if that'd work but I'm too lazy to look into this now.

Yes - you can.

effgee · Sep 15, 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
Yes - you can.

Well, then it certainly looks like someone here is full of sh¡te - either Apple or the music industry - or maybe even both? We'll see soon enough.

Gee4orce · Sep 16, 2004, 04:03 AM

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:

It is actually quite simple: if Apple was unable to launch an iTunes Music Store that complies fully with the laws of the Union's internal market, then, clearly, they should not have launched it at all. Fairly uncomplicated I feel.

But given the choice of :

a) paying a bit more (which we Brits are used to, let's face it)

or

b) no iTMS UK at all

I'll take (a), thank you. Nobody forces you to use it, and it's still cheaper than buying a CD in HMV (not including special offers).

kennethmac2000 · Sep 16, 2004, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
But given the choice of :

a) paying a bit more (which we Brits are used to, let's face it)

or

b) no iTMS UK at all

I'll take (a), thank you. Nobody forces you to use it, and it's still cheaper than buying a CD in HMV (not including special offers).

The point is not that we have to pay a bit more to purchase from the UK store.

The point is that we are being prevented from also exercising our right - which we have under single market rules - to buy from the French or German iTunes Music Stores.