[reemas]

i was going to get Firefox when i saw the info on Camino at mozilla's website.
now i'm not sure what the difference is and why you'd want one over the other, so if you can inform us that would be nice. thanks.

[TETENAL]

Both use the same rendering engine called Gecko.

Firefox uses the cross-platform XUL for the user interface. Camino uses the OS X native Cocoa for the user interface. That means the advantage of Firefox is that add ons for other platforms work on the Mac as well. And the advantage of Camino is that the interface is more Mac like including Services for example.

Try both and have a look for yourself which one you like more. There's no definite answer; it's a matter of personal taste. I suggest you get a nightly build of Camino instead of the stable 0.8. It has a nicer tab implementation.

[ambush]

I like Camino better.

[wataru]

I prefer Firefox.

Camino has a more native feel, but Firefox has way more functionality. Some people like to make a huge deal out of little non-native aspects of Firefox's appearance, but as long as you're not an anal Aqua zealot, Firefox beats Camino hands-down in my opinion.

By the way, if the ugly widgets in Firefox bother you, try Firefoxy.

[nooon]

I also prefer Firefox.
Eventhough the GUI might feel a bit chunky, it still is a better and faster browser than all the alternatives..

[yskar]

Regardless of which you prefer, it's good to know the difference between them. Read the article "Interview with Camino Project head Mike Pinkerton" @ Ars Technica. Mike Pinkerton is the lead developer on the Camino project.

As for me, I prefer Camino. It's much more Mac-like. Firefox is fast, but I feel like I'm using Windows app when using Firefox.

[Busemann]

Originally posted by nooon:
I also prefer Firefox.
Eventhough the GUI might feel a bit chunky, it still is a better and faster browser than all the alternatives..

How can i be faster when it uses the same rendering engine? I prefer Camino, but I think Firefox is a great browser as well.

I use Safari as my main browser though.

[Millennium]

Firefox is better for power-users because of its extensibility, but Camino's Mac integration is ahead by leaps and bounds. Not just the meaningless "native-Cocoa" thing, either; it does Good Things with Address Book, Rendezvous, and the Keychain.

I prefer Firefox, but that's in large part because I extend the bejeezus out of it. For someone who doesn't need that I would recommend Camino.

[wataru]

Millenium, what extensions do you use? I'm just wondering because there are so many of them out there, I haven't really taken the time to check them all out.

The ones I consider essential are Adblock and Web Developer. I also recently discovered downTHEMall!, which allows you to download all or some files linked to from a given page.

[Thain Esh Kelch]

Originally posted by Busemann:
How can i be faster when it uses the same rendering engine? I prefer Camino, but I think Firefox is a great browser as well.

I use Safari as my main browser though.

I guess Camino uses some cocoa rendering options, which are a bit slower, but prettier to look at?

[nooon]

Originally posted by wataru:
The ones I consider essential are Adblock and Web Developer. I also recently discovered downTHEMall!, which allows you to download all or some files linked to from a given page.

You should also check out BBCode and Bookmarks Synchronizer.

[monkeybrain]

I just tried out the latest Firefox after using Camino for the last few monthes and it does seem much improved. It's becoming more mac-like. Obviously there's the lack of compatibility with address book and so forth but it might be a price worth paying. It does seem faster, scrolling is more responsive. And there's lots of nice little features.

I want to use Camino! But Firefox is drawing me back in. When I used to use Firefox I'm convinced it was a memory hog, so we'll see if that's the same.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Thain Esh Kelch:
I guess Camino uses some cocoa rendering options, which are a bit slower, but prettier to look at?

No, it doesn't. I can't tell a speed difference between the two, but if there is one, that's not the reason.

[monkeybrain]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
No, it doesn't. I can't tell a speed difference between the two, but if there is one, that's not the reason.

I think it may be a scrolling thing, Firefox doesn't seem to use smooth scrolling so it's faster.

BTW, does anyone know how to decrease the size of bookmarks on the bookmark bar in Firefox, and also add a close box to tabs? I've looked at the extensions but can't find one.

Edit: having said that about the scrolling, I think it might depend on the page. Camino scrolls these forums very nicely, Firefox does not. Something to do with tables maybe? But then why should that be?

[wataru]

I'm pretty sure there is an extension that adds a close button to tabs.

[Jake_11]

i use firefox with windows, but camino with the mac. i like firefox, but it was locking up, so i had to take it off. i'm sure the problem with firefox was specific to the release and have been fixed, but i like camino better now that i've used it for a while.

[Toyin]

Firefox has been able to lure me away from Safari. I now use it as much as Safari. It's significantly faster than Safari with secure sites (like banking). I've also tried Camino, and although it has a cocoa wrapper, it didn't keep me interested for too long. (The last nightly I got was Sept 17th)

[the_glassman]

I like Camino, though I use Firefox, Safari, Netscape and even IE from time to time. If Camino had spell check like Safari, I would use it as my primary browser.

[legacyb4]

I've been using Camino for the past several weeks with no problems; in the last few days though, Camino has gone nuts and quits unexpectedly quite frequently.

I've killed the entire Camino folder in /Application Support but it still seems to be extremely unstable...

Cheers.

[D'Espice]

If you don't like the Firefox theme and want something more Aqua like I suggest you take a look at "Noia Extreme". Still not Aqua/OS X but closer and not as ugly as the original theme

[Millennium]

Originally posted by wataru:
Millenium, what extensions do you use? I'm just wondering because there are so many of them out there, I haven't really taken the time to check them all out.

The ones I consider essential are Adblock and Web Developer. I also recently discovered downTHEMall!, which allows you to download all or some files linked to from a given page.

I'm also a fan of Sage (an RSS/Atom reader) and the Tabbrowser Extensions, which can be used to give you a Safari-like close box in each tab.

Web Developer is the Best Thing Ever.

[Agent69]

I use Firefox (Albook's G4 optimized build) as my browser because:

1. It's cross platform. I use Firefox on my Mac at home and at my PC at work. Having Firefox on both provides me with the same UI and rendering, meaning that my browsing experience is consistant.

2. Firefox is updated more frequently than Camino or Safari.

[monkeybrain]

Originally posted by Agent69:


2. Firefox is updated more frequently than Camino.

Camino is updated every night. New features and tweaks appear all the time.

[nooon]

Originally posted by Agent69:
2. Firefox is updated more frequently than Camino or Safari.

http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.o...ightly/latest/

[wataru]

I think he meant that Firefox is being more actively developed than Camino. Firefox is the future of the Mozilla Organization; Camino is a peripheral project with no guarantee of continued existence.

[solbo]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
If you don't like the Firefox theme and want something more Aqua like I suggest you take a look at "Noia Extreme". Still not Aqua/OS X but closer and not as ugly as the original theme

How is Noia even remotely more Aqua than Pinstripe?

[nooon]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
If you don't like the Firefox theme and want something more Aqua like I suggest you take a look at "Noia Extreme". Still not Aqua/OS X but closer and not as ugly as the original theme

Noia screenshot

you're kidding, right? I suggest you check out one of these instead.

[RedHerring]

Originally posted by nooon:
Noia screenshot

you're kidding, right? I suggest you check out one of these instead.

Thanks... these are awesome! Just what I was looking for.

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by wataru:
Some people like to make a huge deal out of little non-native aspects of Firefox's appearance, but as long as you're not an anal Aqua zealot, Firefox beats Camino hands-down in my opinion.

By the way, if the ugly widgets in Firefox bother you, try Firefoxy.

Of course its a big deal. Apple established a standard for the GUI to keep everything consistent and when a software doesnt use those standards it ticks me off.

FIrst off Aqua is simple and beautiful.

Second, the Firefox widgets use widgets that make me feel like Im on a windows box which just plain sucks.

The only reason I dont use Firefox is because of the widgets. Im proud to be an anal Aqua zealot. Not my fault you cant appreciate a nicely designed interface.

By the way, the Firefoxy widgets are still butt ugly.

Oh another thing. Everything mentions the extensions as a reason why Firefox is so great but no mentions the fact that every-time Firefox is updated, the extensions have to be updated as well. So you can be stuck without the extensions you are use to having. That just sucks.

I prefer Omniweb.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by drainyoo:
Of course its a big deal. Apple established a standard for the GUI to keep everything consistent and when a software doesnt use those standards it ticks me off.

And when those widgets aren't powerful enough to get the job done, what do you do then? Native Aqua widgets are insufficient for the Web, because they cannot be made to respond to stylesheets. Would you hobble your browser for the sake of a false sense of aesthetics?

Beauty and consistency are fine things, but in the end you have to use the right tool for the job, and for the job of displaying Web pages Aqua is not that tool.

FIrst off Aqua is simple and beautiful.

Beautiful, I will give you. But simple? I don't know what universe you got that from. Much of their beauty comes from their complexity.

Second, the Firefox widgets use widgets that make me feel like Im on a windows box which just plain sucks.

The only reason I dont use Firefox is because of the widgets. Im proud to be an anal Aqua zealot.

Good to see that at least you're comfortable with it, because that's exactly what you are. If you won't use something for meaningless reasons like "it looks like Windows" then you truly are deranged.

I was once like you, in my youth; a zealot long past the point of rationality, worshipping Tog and his disciple David Every. So believe me, I know only too well how you feel. However, that also puts me in a rather unique position to know exactly why your arguments make no sense.

Not my fault you cant appreciate a nicely designed interface.

No, but it is your fault that you can't appreciate technological necessity.

By the way, the Firefoxy widgets are still butt ugly.

Because they're not Aqua? They still have a way to go -in particular, they don't respond all that well to styling, though they're better about it than native Aqua is- but to call them ugly is going too far. If they could be made to respond to styling, they would be the perfect compromise between native Aqua and the needs of the Web.

Oh another thing. Everything mentions the extensions as a reason why Firefox is so great but no mentions the fact that every-time Firefox is updated, the extensions have to be updated as well. So you can be stuck without the extensions you are use to having. That just sucks.

That was a side effect of the fact that it was pre-release software. With the 1.0 release will come a stable API, and therefore an end to that merry-go-round. That's what 1.0 means.

[wataru]

Excellent response, Millenium. I couldn't have put it better myself

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
And when those widgets aren't powerful enough to get the job done, what do you do then? Native Aqua widgets are insufficient for the Web, because they cannot be made to respond to stylesheets. Would you hobble your browser for the sake of a false sense of aesthetics?

Beauty and consistency are fine things, but in the end you have to use the right tool for the job, and for the job of displaying Web pages Aqua is not that tool.

Beautiful, I will give you. But simple? I don't know what universe you got that from. Much of their beauty comes from their complexity.

Good to see that at least you're comfortable with it, because that's exactly what you are. If you won't use something for meaningless reasons like "it looks like Windows" then you truly are deranged.

I was once like you, in my youth; a zealot long past the point of rationality, worshipping Tog and his disciple David Every. So believe me, I know only too well how you feel. However, that also puts me in a rather unique position to know exactly why your arguments make no sense.

No, but it is your fault that you can't appreciate technological necessity.

Because they're not Aqua? They still have a way to go -in particular, they don't respond all that well to styling, though they're better about it than native Aqua is- but to call them ugly is going too far. If they could be made to respond to styling, they would be the perfect compromise between native Aqua and the needs of the Web.

That was a side effect of the fact that it was pre-release software. With the 1.0 release will come a stable API, and therefore an end to that merry-go-round. That's what 1.0 means.

Seems like you have alot of time on your hands to analyze everything I wrote. Whats with the hostility? I just get ticked off when people who dont appreciate OS X style widgets have to attack people who do as if their taste is correct. Give me a break.

To me widgets that are skinned by stylesheets arent too attractive.

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
And when those widgets aren't powerful enough to get the job done, what do you do then? Native Aqua widgets are insufficient for the Web, because they cannot be made to respond to stylesheets. Would you hobble your browser for the sake of a false sense of aesthetics?

Beauty and consistency are fine things, but in the end you have to use the right tool for the job, and for the job of displaying Web pages Aqua is not that tool.

Beautiful, I will give you. But simple? I don't know what universe you got that from. Much of their beauty comes from their complexity.

Good to see that at least you're comfortable with it, because that's exactly what you are. If you won't use something for meaningless reasons like "it looks like Windows" then you truly are deranged.

I was once like you, in my youth; a zealot long past the point of rationality, worshipping Tog and his disciple David Every. So believe me, I know only too well how you feel. However, that also puts me in a rather unique position to know exactly why your arguments make no sense.

No, but it is your fault that you can't appreciate technological necessity.

Because they're not Aqua? They still have a way to go -in particular, they don't respond all that well to styling, though they're better about it than native Aqua is- but to call them ugly is going too far. If they could be made to respond to styling, they would be the perfect compromise between native Aqua and the needs of the Web.

That was a side effect of the fact that it was pre-release software. With the 1.0 release will come a stable API, and therefore an end to that merry-go-round. That's what 1.0 means.

I just noticed that you called me deranged. Pardon my language but what the **** is wrong with you? As a Mod I would think its your job to refrain from calling people names.

Why are getting all bent out of shape? So Im deranged cause I choose not to use Firefox cause I appreciate OSX native widgets?

Nice job buddy. Im glad we have you as a mod. You seem like the deranged one.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Millennium:
And when those widgets aren't powerful enough to get the job done, what do you do then? Native Aqua widgets are insufficient for the Web, because they cannot be made to respond to stylesheets.

This is a good thing.

A web site should NOT be able to change the look of the widgets.


Amorya

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by Amorya:
This is a good thing.

A web site should NOT be able to change the look of the widgets.


Amorya

Exactly.

[ojnihs]

We're having a discussion on ****ing programs here. This isn't a political debate or anything of any real importance other than the fact that it's the one program you use to "surf" the net.

Why are people so damn bent out of shape because another person wants to use a different program than you do. It's all a matter of opinion and personnal preference.

And no offense Millenium, but I'm with Drainyoo on this one, you are a moderator, and I don't think derailing someone is in your job description.

You guys just need to chill the **** out.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by ojnihs:
We're having a discussion on ****ing programs here. This isn't a political debate or anything of any real importance other than the fact that it's the one program you use to "surf" the net.

Why are people so damn bent out of shape because another person wants to use a different program than you do. It's all a matter of opinion and personnal preference.

And no offense Millenium, but I'm with Drainyoo on this one, you are a moderator, and I don't think derailing someone is in your job description.

You guys just need to chill the **** out.

Exactly. I don't know what the hell it is with the Firefox users on here. If you like Firefox, then use it. If others prefer something else, then what is it to you?!

BTW, I consider spell check an ESSENTIAL FEATURE. Therefore, you must all stay away from both Camino and Firefox, because they are both lacking ESSENTIAL FEATURES, which must be essential to you, because they are essential to me. Because I said so. And if you dare use a browser which doesn't have spell check, I will hunt you down. And I will find you. And I will also hunt down your friends, your spouse, your children, and everyone you ever knew. And I will burn you all alive, to rid the world of all non-spellcheck-browser-using infidels. So RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!!! Note to any literalists who reply: It's called sarcasm

Jeez.

[monkeybrain]

Trying to bring this back on track...

Does anybody think that OS X services are a great selling point for Camino, and one most people don't even realise is there? For instance, make new sticky or textedit document out of a selection is great, useful for saving order information etc. The speak text service could be useful to people as well.

Camino will add more services, once it gets spelling I'm sure a lot of people will consider switching.

And about all this widget talk, well Camino is more theme friendly - so that gets my vote.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by drainyoo:
Seems like you have alot of time on your hands to analyze everything I wrote. Whats with the hostility? I just get ticked off when people who dont appreciate OS X style widgets have to attack people who do as if their taste is correct. Give me a break.

I do appreciate OSX-style widgets. I am, however, wise enough to not worship them as The One True Way. Aqua on all Web pages is nothing more than the proverbial round peg in a square hole.

To me widgets that are skinned by stylesheets arent too attractive.

That is for the page designer to decide, not you. I advocate only that the designer be allowed to decide what his own page looks like. A Web page is not a Mac, and there is no reason to expect that it should look or act like one.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by drainyoo:
I just noticed that you called me deranged. Pardon my language but what the **** is wrong with you? As a Mod I would think its your job to refrain from calling people names.

You'll note that in practically the same breath as that, I said that I was once exactly like you. By calling you deranged, I say that I myself was once also deranged. You could say this is the pot calling the kettle black, but it does take one to know one, after all.

By the way, I am not a moderator in this forum. You can verify this for yourself, by going to the main Forums page and looking at the mod listing for the Software forums; my name is not listed. I have no more power in this forum than you do. This is not just a set of rules, either; I am physically locked out of performing any moderator functions.

Here, I am an ordinary user, just like you. I understand that the blue stars by my name may confuse you; if they do, you will need to take it up with the admins. I sincerely wish you luck in this; I have asked them about this very issue in the past, asking if it would be possible to remove the blue stars from mods' names in forums where they weren't moderators. They didn't do this.

Why are getting all bent out of shape? So Im deranged cause I choose not to use Firefox cause I appreciate OSX native widgets?

You do not "appreciate" OSX native widgets; you venerate them blindly I realize this last statement is probably inflammatory, so allow me to explain myself. If you truly appreciated Aqua widgets, then you would understand why they work the way they work, and more importantly you would understand when they are appropriate and when they are not. You show no evidence of this kind of understanding, nor any evidence that you have attempted to gain such understanding. On the contrary, everything you've written shows that you think they are k3w1 and l33t, and that this is why you insist on applying them everywhere.

If you think that I don't appreciate Aqua, you are sorely mistaken. But a large part of truly appreciating something is understanding its weaknesses as well as its strengths, and knowing how to apply it properly in light of those strengths and weaknesses. You have shown no evidence of this.

[P]

Originally posted by Millennium:
By the way, I am not a moderator in this forum. You can verify this for yourself, by going to the main Forums page and looking at the mod listing for the Software forums; my name is not listed. I have no more power in this forum than you do. This is not just a set of rules, either; I am physically locked out of performing any moderator functions.

Here, I am an ordinary user, just like you. I understand that the blue stars by my name may confuse you; if they do, you will need to take it up with the admins. I sincerely wish you luck in this; I have asked them about this very issue in the past, asking if it would be possible to remove the blue stars from mods' names in forums where they weren't moderators. They didn't do this.

The point still stands: If you have blue stars, act them. People get the intimidated by mod status, right or wrong. I don't think I've ever called anyone deranged in these forums (and I've been in some debates where that was called for) so it shouldn't be hard to avoid that type of language.

That said, I agree that mods should only be labelled mods in the forums that they actually moderate, but it's not my call to make.

Now back to the subject at hand...

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by monkeybrain:
Trying to bring this back on track...

Does anybody think that OS X services are a great selling point for Camino, and one most people don't even realise is there? For instance, make new sticky or textedit document out of a selection is great, useful for saving order information etc. The speak text service could be useful to people as well.

Camino will add more services, once it gets spelling I'm sure a lot of people will consider switching.

And about all this widget talk, well Camino is more theme friendly - so that gets my vote.

P, I agree. Anyways Im not going to ruin this thread with off topic discussion.

Back to the topic. I think OSX services are a great selling point, for me at least. I like when my browser can seamlessly integrate into the OS, makes life so much easier.

Spell checking I think is a big feature and I agree that more people will use it when it is implemented. I know I sure would.

[P]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I do appreciate OSX-style widgets. I am, however, wise enough to not worship them as The One True Way. Aqua on all Web pages is nothing more than the proverbial round peg in a square hole.

No set of widgets is the one true way. Consistency, however, is... not really the "true way" either, but at least something to be aiming for. If the Aqua widgets truly cannot support all the possibilities in CSS, as you claim above, then the closer the better.

Originally posted by Millennium:
That is for the page designer to decide, not you. I advocate only that the designer be allowed to decide what his own page looks like. A Web page is not a Mac, and there is no reason to expect that it should look or act like one.

If the page designer decides to modify the widget, go ahead. I'll chose to accept his vision or not by using that site - or not. But the majority of sites do not use fancy CSS or special widgets, and in that case the wdigets should be native Aqua or as close as possible to avoid confusing the user. I understand quite well the difference between widgets in a browser window and widgets in a Cocoa app, but the main purpose I have for Firefox is installing it for people who still use IE and where I have cleaned up their machines from viruses (or should I say virii? Sorry not cool enough to pull that one off) and adware for the 12 000th time. They get confused by strange widgets. Confusion = bad, so the less confusion the bettter. Getting ocnfused on a strange CSS site once in the blue moon is better than all the time they're on the web.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Millennium:
You do not "appreciate" OSX native widgets; you venerate them blindly I realize this last statement is probably inflammatory, so allow me to explain myself. If you truly appreciated Aqua widgets, then you would understand why they work the way they work, and more importantly you would understand when they are appropriate and when they are not. You show no evidence of this kind of understanding, nor any evidence that you have attempted to gain such understanding. On the contrary, everything you've written shows that you think they are k3w1 and l33t, and that this is why you insist on applying them everywhere.

Then don't use Safari. Use Firefox then and let the rest of us who prefer Safari, OmniWeb, Shiira, or Camino use what we like.

Custom CSS buttons? I don't care. At all. You upset because the absence of mauve and chartreuse-striped buttons violates the "artistic integrity" of your web site? Too bad. It's a web site, not a painting in the Louvre. The purpose of the web site is primarily to convey information, which it does equally well no matter what the buttons look like.

Actually, I myself prefer if the buttons aren't able to be pink with purple polka-dots against a maroon background. Why? Because when trying to do fancy crap like that, web designers often tend to make things hard to see or read for me with my red/green colorblindness. So, you claim that Aqua buttons are just eye candy, or just k3w1 or l33t. What the hell do you think that buttons shaped like Britney Spears' butt are? No, fancy buttons aren't eye candy at all! They're absolutely essential to the Web browsing experience!

The fact is, that the Aqua buttons look better in about 95% of web sites. For the 5% that they look worse for, well, that is a trade-off I'm willing to make. And there are others that also like the native buttons and UI consistency that they provide. The thing is, none of us are screaming at you to switch your web browser and insulting you because of your choice. In fact, all of that crap is being done by the Firefox zealots, so maybe you should reconsider who you are accusing of "blind veneration" or hawking the "One True Way."

Sheesh, could you possibly be any more insulting, arrogant, or pompous than you were in this post? It doesn't matter if you're a moderator in this forum or not - you have no right to go on belittling people and acting like a complete jerk while wearing the moderator stars.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Use Firefox then

Unfortunately Firefox doesn't use proper web scrollbars. It uses Aqua style scrollbars.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Unfortunately Firefox doesn't use proper web scrollbars. It uses Aqua style scrollbars.

Oh my God.

And we're the ones who are "blindly venerating" a particular UI choice.

[kugino]

i use both...i like the developer extension in firefox, but not the look and feel of most of the themes and widgets. the only other thing i really like about firefox is that you can go from folder to folder in the bookmarks bar and see the contents of the folders all on one click...no need to do multiple clicks going from folder to folder.

camino seems faster to me...

both ff and camino don't render the password box for .Mac homepages well - there are strange lines inside the metal...

i like camino's use of keychain manager for passwords...

i'll continue to use both - both have plusses and minuses.

'nuf said.

[jstein]

Originally posted by nooon:
Noia screenshot

you're kidding, right? I suggest you check out one of these instead.

Wow nooon, nice screenshot. Do tell, what are the extension that you use for Firefox.......

[Millennium]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Actually, I myself prefer if the buttons aren't able to be pink with purple polka-dots against a maroon background. Why? Because when trying to do fancy crap like that, web designers often tend to make things hard to see or read for me with my red/green colorblindness. So, you claim that Aqua buttons are just eye candy, or just k3w1 or l33t. What the hell do you think that buttons shaped like Britney Spears' butt are? No, fancy buttons aren't eye candy at all! They're absolutely essential to the Web browsing experience!

This question is not your call to answer, nor is it mine. It's the prerogative of the page designer. We may disagree with the choices of designers, but that does not negate their artistic freedom. If you don't want to use a site with styled buttons then this is your prerogative, but dictating the design of their site is very much not.

Frankly, I don't use styling with the buttons on my site for the most part. However, I am not every Web designer, nor are you. I only ask that the choice be given to those to whom it belongs, and that is not either of us.

The fact is, that the Aqua buttons look better in about 95% of web sites.

I don't know about that. Certainly they look good in some sites, particularly those which share Aqua-like characteristics (light backgrounds with perhaps a subtle background, large text, and so forth).

Hey, I've got it. Let's make a really Mac-like Web browser, which forces an Aqua appearance on all Websites. A lot of it might even be emulatable right now using user stylesheets, and that might be doable as a first pass. but it must be REAL NATIVE AQUA WIDGETS for the final version, because Aqua is king, lord, and master of UI and consistency is king.

Do you realize how ridiculous that idea is? And yet, it's nothing more than the logical conclusion of demanding Aqua widgets on Websites.

The thing is, none of us are screaming at you to switch your web browser and insulting you because of your choice.

I am not screaming at anyone to switch their browser. If anything, I scream only at the developers of Camino and Safari, so that they might start to use proper Web-stylable widgets.

In fact, all of that crap is being done by the Firefox zealots, so maybe you should reconsider who you are accusing of "blind veneration" or hawking the "One True Way."

My way is no way at all, or rather it is the ultimate in choice.

Sheesh, could you possibly be any more insulting, arrogant, or pompous than you were in this post? It doesn't matter if you're a moderator in this forum or not - you have no right to go on belittling people and acting like a complete jerk while wearing the moderator stars.

Which is precisely why I want them taken off in forums where I'm not a mod. Where I moderate, I am careful about what I say, when I even speak at all, because I have a responsibility to the users there. I do not want those restrictions in places where I am not given that responsibility. It is why I requested not to moderate the OSX, Software, or Lounge forums.

[nooon]

Originally posted by jstein:
Wow nooon, nice screenshot. Do tell, what are the extension that you use for Firefox.......

That isn't my screenshot. It's just something I found on the web to show you guys what Noia Extreme looked like.
I wouldn't touch Noia with a ten-foot pole.