[occupant]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why it's a problem. I can only assume that Adobe has this policy because there is no clear line on what constitutes a 'legitimate' religous organization and, further, what consitutes legitimate use within that organization (they are often largely volunteer-based, so anyone who belongs to a religious organization and makes a bake sale poster could claim they need a cheap version of Photoshop).

Seems fair to me. Would Catholics be offended if chicken worshipers or Raelians got the same breaks? I bet they would.

[rmansfield]

SuperChicken, can you post a link to the original document from Adobe. I wanted to read it in its entirety, but I'm having difficulty finding it on their site.

[MU84]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Why should pretentious brats like you be beaten with a blunt object? Because they actually deserve it...

Spoken like a true Christian.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rmansfield

SuperChicken, can you post a link to the original document from Adobe. I wanted to read it in its entirety, but I'm having difficulty finding it on their site.

Well...

Originally Posted by Superchicken

If you want to take a look at the PDF check it out at http://www.giftsinkind.org/pdf/adobe_web.pdf

[cranfordio]

Maybe you need to re-read the rules fro buying from the Apple Education Store then. They only offer the discounts for a religios organization if you are a religious school, not churches. In fact, being the Technology Minister for my church, I only know of a few companies that do offer discounts to churches. Usually you do have to be qualified as a 501(c)(3) charitable organization. Apple doesn't offer discounts, neither does Adobe, Macromedia, Dell, IBM, HP, Gateway. Micrisift does, but it requirees larger purchases. I could have gotten 50% CALs for our server only if I bought 25 or more, but since my church, like most others, would never need that many, it does us no good.

[CollinG3G4]

superchicken, tell yor church leader to spend some of that untaxed cash surplus.

[idesignforlife]

Oh man this post is classic. Let me get this straight...

Because Adobe doesn't support your chosen religion, they're discriminating against you?

bwahahahahah?

classic.

[Kilbey]

Originally Posted by burgessa23

There seem to be a lot of new members in this thread. Weird.

that's cos it's linked from the macnn homepage

-Andrew

Ahhh... Well, that explains that.

I think the Lounge is going to be getting mighty crowded the next few days.

[Kilbey]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4

superchicken, tell yor church leader to spend some of that untaxed cash surplus.

I wish I went to your Church. Our runs at a slim deficit.

[rmansfield]

Ha! Thanks Chuckit for pointing out the link after I had skimmed right past it. I'd be embarrassed, but I don't want to discriminate against myself.

I think this is all very interesting. Any company such as Adobe obviously has the right to offer discounts to anyone they want to and deny them to anyone. What's interesting here is that while offering discounts to non-profit educational institutions, and institutions that provide services to the homless and hungry. However, I do find it odd that they go out of their way to exclude any group who falls into those categories that also have religious ties.

So, you have to be a 501(3)(c), but you can't be a religious 501(3)(c). I personally think it's a bit much on Adobe's part, but I don't deny their right to do it. However, it might give religious organizations the thought to look elsewhere for software.

[Mrjinglesusa]

I posted on the first page of this thread. 3 hours later, it's 3 pages long and you STILL do not get it.

Here it is AGAIN:

"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12 curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working to prevent hunger or homelessness."

Your church is none of the above so you are NOT eligible. Not BECAUSE you are a church, but because your primary MISSION is NOT education. You are NOT being discriminated against because you are a church.

"Adobe does NOT support: individuals, religious organizations, churches, temples, seminaries, political organizations or private foundations."

As many others have said, I am an INDIVIDUAL non-profit. Typical non-profits TEND to be churches, temples, etc. and Adobe excludes them because their PRIMARY MISSION IS NOT EDUCATION! Same with political organizations (non-profit) and private non-profit foundations.

BOTTOM LINE: You have no valid argument for your claim of discrimination. Your church is not eligible for one simple reason: your PRIMARY mission is not any of the above (K-12 education; developing K-12 curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working to prevent hunger or homelessness).

[six6six]

Personally, I think you bible thumpers should have to pay double.

[rmansfield]

Actually, Mrjingleusa, I'm not sure you get it.

It's not just educational 501(c)(3)'s who are eligible for the discount. It's also non-profits who provide services for the homeless and hungry.

By excluding those with religious affiliations, Adobe is eliminating from eligibility the majority of those organizations who are in this field. And most of the downtown missions who are giving a hot meal and place to sleep to those who need it, do not discriminate against anyone in need of help.

Like I said in a previous post, it seems a much.

Plus, it's contradictory to discriminate against certain 501(c)(3)'s based on assumed discrimination based upon religious identity.

Again, I'm not denying their right to do it; it's just a bit over the top.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Kilbey

There seem to be a lot of new members in this thread. Weird.

That's because if you've already said something in the post, if you create a new account it looks like you have more credibility.

But I do like the fact that I made the MacNN main page. My lawyer/sister says I might be able to make a Human Rights Violation claim up here I think I'll look into that and then go call Adobe customer service and see what they have to say bout dem Apples (and no not the Intel based ones.)

[DalaiBobra]

I read MacNN daily and this is the first forum I've read.....I never knew the forums offered such stimulation...I'll have to drop in more often from now on as a newly registered RATIONAL HUMAN BEING!

Superchicken, you have been thoroughly trounced by scores of people (but rest assure they're all going to HELL) pointing out the various aspects of why you look like a fool saying you're "pissed" at Adobe. You've skirted some points and made some of your own, and resorted several times to violent speech towards your fellow brothers, how Christian of you!

Reading through the whole thread I wanted to chime in and tell you the impression you've left with me:

1) The real reason you're "pissed" at Adobe, is because you think you've _discovered_ that they are a liberal, atheistic, "secular humanist" institution, like so many, that are out to persecute you and other christians. You see this kind of thing all the time, and it fills you with self righteous fervor knowing that Satan has such a grip on this fallen world. To you, the world is ever slipping into an amoral, nihilistic, abyss, and Left Behind II is the best sequel you've ever seen (i personally was entertained)....

2) The real motivation for the discount is self interest. You went completely out of your way to point out how you were so altruistic trying to get the discount, and when that didn't work, you decided to take the time & try to slander Adobe when you realized you couldn't get a freebie. Then you took further time to try to defend the ill-conceived idea that they are "discriminating" against you, probably making a dozen posts on the issue.

3) You are a poor Christian. You know you jumped the gun on Adobe, people have made several level-headed potential explanations as to why Adobe might choose the policy they have, you don't even acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that they could be right, and instead you hold that Bible steadfast to your breast and continue whining "discrimination"! You are a lame-ass.

A suggestion:

Christ's message is far more impressive than yours. GO walk in his path, and stop looking for a FREE LUNCH you bottom-feeding prick! You admitted yourself that you have plenty of money. There are people are thinking independently out there, and you are an unclean sinner. There's so much work to do!

[OkieDoc]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Right, cause at my Church we make the black people sit in the back of the gym and the white people at the front. And of course if a gay person walked in we'd all beat him down and nail him to the stage.

News flash, not every Christian is an ass, just like not everyone who is of whatever belief system you are is an ass like you're being now. And beyond that even if you're a bigot towards Christians like you seem to be, do you like the idea that they're also insulting Wiccans, Hindus, and Buddhists? This is a blanket policy made by someone who probably has decided all religions suck because his parents went to church and were jerks.

Hehheh, this reminds me of the people at the Christian camp I attended at the urging of my friends in high school. Several thousand Baptist youth, most of which (including my hometown friends) were great. Unfortunately, this is Oklahoma...and being a Catholic isn't exactly RC (that's religiously correct) at a Baptist camp. So I got hounded for 3 days (to the horror of my friends who had invited me). So forget making it about Black and White.

Wiccans? Hindus? Their organizations wouldn't get it free, either. Get over it.

[Okonomiyaki]

This policy is to be applauded. The fact that churches and other "faith based" organizations are usually regarded as "non-profit" is laughable. Religion is the #1 most profitable endeavor ever created by man.

[holdonamoment]

Wow. This one has drifted massively off topic.

I don't normally post to these things but I've got a little time to kill and this is not showing anyone up particularly well.

Ignoring the mud-slinging of many of these posts - much of which is horrendously un(der)informed I'd like to try and return to Superchicken's original rant.

Firstly, should this be in a blog? If anyone cares to look up the origin of the word forum they will find that this is actually quite appropriate material for a forum. From the Oxford American dictionary "a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged". Superchicken has a view he wishes to exchange; sounds like that fits.

Now, Adobe's policy. A disturbingly large number of you have started picking on Churches as the issue. This happens all too often in these discussions. Superchicken did not have a problem with his Church not being eligible. This is perhaps an innocent misunderstanding, perhaps a willful one. When he went looking for information about discounts he found information that explicitly discriminates against religious organisations. "Boo hoo" you all cry, because you don't like religious organisations and off you go on an anti-religious rant that provokes an increasingly common "I've had enough of this crap" response from the Christian member of this post and it all descends into a bit of a mess.

Let me quote from Adobe's statement:
"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12 curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working to prevent hunger or homelessness. "
Sounds fair enough at that but, and here is what I believe Superchicken took issue with, (my emphasis)
"Organizations with a secular designation (that is a separate 501(c)(3) status from
the religious organization) that provides services to people regardless of their religious beliefs and does not propagate a belief in a specific faith are eligible for this program.Example: A food bank that is a separate 501 (c)(3) organization from a church that provides food and meals to anyone who qualifies for services, regardless of religious belief would qualify."

Now what this fairly explicitly says is that a food bank that is not separate from a church does not qualify. By extension, and I think fairly clearly implied within the text, any school or organisation associated with a particular religion would be seen as discriminatory and thereby excluded. Obviously this practice itself is discriminatory.

Now, let us consider the concept of discrimination. Common usage of the word implies that discimination is always wrong. This is not so. As a simple example, we discriminate against murderers by putting them in prisons. Discrimination simply means treating people differently whatever the reason.

In Adobe's text they refer to " organizations having unlawful discriminatory practices". That these groups are lumped in with churches, temples, etc., implies that Adobe considers them to also be a form of unlawful discrimination and that for Adobe to discriminate against them (by not offering the same terms) is therefore justified. Ah, you say, but churches were not included in the "eligible" list anyway so what's the big deal? Quite so, however, what Adobe's statement does is say that they will support schools that do not have any religious affiliation but will not support schools that do. What they are effectively saying is hide your religion or have none if you want free software. Think about that. "We want nothing to do with any discrimination of any kind". That's discriminatory in the same way that people who preach tolerance will not accept a position that they see as intolerant - they are intolerant of "intolerance" and thereby not practicing what they preach. Adobe is apparently preaching against "wrongful discrimination" but is discriminating to do so.

But are they discriminating wrongfully? Ultimately that is "mind of the beholder" stuff (and yes, I know that's not the phrase) if we do not know why Adobe is doing this. The effect of their statement is to treat schools or food banks with religious affiliations as if they were guilty of unlawful discrimination. I would say that was wrong because what they are doing is promoting secularism over religion.

The irony of this will be lost on most people. Secularism or secular humanism is actually a belief system in the same way that the world's religions are and was acknowledged as a religion by the US Supreme Court as far back as 1961 (Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. 488)). However, secularism is a belief system that has no need of churches or ceremonies because it does not declare itself a religion, it simply regards itself as obvious truth. It also has no need of special schools to promote its belief system because it argues that all religious teaching is wrong and "unconstitutional" and essentially tries to turn all schools into secular schools.

Adobe is (perhaps unwittingly) supporting this world view in its policy. It is discriminating against all belief systems that have churches (or similar) or at least requiring that you distance yourself from them - this effectively leaves secular humanism, agnosticism, and atheism as approved belief systems. Why are they doing this? It is entirely possible that it is simply easier for them to say it this way, than to list organisations they regard as "acceptable" and risk being sued. However, given the need for these organisations to be K-12 or food bank related in the first place, the statements Adobe makes about who will not benefit from this scheme seem unnecessary in that event. This leaves the suspicion that Adobe is deliberately choosing to discriminate against religious organisations because it can.

Is it unlawful? I don't think so, I imagine Adobe can do what it likes with freebies.
Is it worthy of getting annoyed at or even boycotting Adobe software? Maybe, as it seems to be totally unnecessary.
Is Superchicken's gripe fitting material for this forum? I can't see why not, it is information related to a company that sells software for Macs. It hasn't stayed that way but that is not entirely Superchicken's doing.

[AKcrab]

The program is run by Gifts in Kind, International.
Browse their software selections, and check out the requirements from the various vendors. http://giftsinkind.org/resources/software.asp

No time to look at a bunch of PDF's? Adobe is not alone in their practices. Better start boycotting a whole lot of software.

[lemuel777]

In the US it is not unlawful to discrimminate based on one's sexual preference as is implied in their non-discrimination policy.

[Hobeaux]

To anyone bashing Adobe, "Get a clue."

If Adobe were to support one group, all others would be jumping up and down screaming that they're a [insert group here] organization. For instance, if they supported a bake sale from your local Hare Krishna temple, all the Christians would be up in arms. How about if they supported a local synagog? White supremists, terrorists, and God only knows who else would be bashing them, boycotting their products, or worse.

Adobe (Apple, Microsoft, Sprint, BBC, Comcast, BT) cannot and will not support any religion or polical party. Not now, not ever. This does not make them ungodly, heathen, or discriminatory. Quite the opposite.

Let me ask you another question: if you ran a company with several thousand employees, with who would you stand? The Methodists, Presbyterians, Mormons, Catholics, Pagans, Athiests... who? If you favor one, you exlude the rest.

So before you fly off the handle, think.

[darkelf]

oh, for the love of mac. superchicken, nobody owes you a farking thing. caesar wants his, that's all. get over it.

[ThermoNuclear]

S-chicken,

1. As a business owner who works very hard to keep my customers happy, I relish the ability not to cater to some people and refuse their business. I sleep better and live longer. Discrimination is my right as a private owner. Adobe is doing nothing illegal.

2. One day you will find that churches, not religion, are the roots of evil. Anything created by man...

3. The crying baby picture is classic.

Out.

[holdonamoment]

Originally Posted by Hobeaux

If Adobe were to support one group, all others would be jumping up and down screaming that they're a [insert group here] organization. For instance, if they supported a bake sale from your local Hare Krishna temple, all the Christians would be up in arms. How about if they supported a local synagog? White supremists, terrorists, and God only knows who else would be bashing them, boycotting their products, or worse.

Other than Adobe and those who want churches taxed who here has actually said that Adobe should exclude any faiths at all?

Originally Posted by Hobeaux

So before you fly off the handle, think.

After you.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

My lawyer/sister says I might be able to make a Human Rights Violation claim up here I think I'll look into that and then go call Adobe customer service and see what they have to say bout dem Apples (and no not the Intel based ones.)

It's a human rights violation not to give you free software? Good grief, I give up. You know as well as I do that this requirement would apply just as much to atheism-advocacy (or really anything-advocacy) groups as it would to Christian churches. It is not discriminating against you.

Anyway, I hope you do realize that you're giving the image of Christians as a bunch of greedy, whiny little children who will sue if the world isn't handed to them on a silver platter.

[Flowbee]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Why should pretentious brats like you be beaten with a blunt object? Because they actually deserve it...

Nothing like a little old-fashioned "christian love" to give you that warm, fuzzy feeling...

[Stephen.S.]

I have very little faith (no pun intended) in Adobe. Listen to B.C during the WWDC Keynote brag about being first to bring their complete line of applications to OS-X. Well. Where is FrameMaker for OS-X Bruce?

Now, he stands on stage and once again states Adobe will be bring their entire line of applications to OS-X for Intel. Can't help but wonder what application will be missing this time. Photoshop?

[DalaiBobra]

[QUOTE=holdonamoment]Wow. This one has drifted massively off topic.>>>

And your attempted Opening Statement to the Supreme Court is massively dissapointing....


<<<I don't normally post to these things but I've got a little time to kill and this is not showing anyone up particularly well.>>>

Time to write a 1000 word write up to make a case of Adobe being part of the "secular humanism" conspiracy, and in such quick time to try and rescue SuperChicken-**it....

<<<Now, Adobe's policy. A disturbingly large number of you have started picking on Churches as the issue. This happens all too often in these discussions.>>>

oh please professor, tell us where we went wrong!

<<<Superchicken did not have a problem with his Church not being eligible. This is perhaps an innocent misunderstanding, perhaps a willful one. When he went looking for information about discounts he found information that explicitly discriminates against religious organisations. "Boo hoo" you all cry, because you don't like religious organisations and off you go on an anti-religious rant that provokes an increasingly common "I've had enough of this crap" response from the Christian member of this post and it all descends into a bit of a mess.>>>

"anti-religious". that was important, you are sharing with us what you are about, my friend, you make a willful decision deciding that we all fall in this camp....how typically religious of you, polemics are so easy to deal with rather than the real world.

<<<Let me quote from Adobe's statement:
"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12 curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working to prevent hunger or homelessness. "
Sounds fair enough at that but, and here is what I believe Superchicken took issue with, (my emphasis)
"Organizations with a secular designation (that is a separate 501(c)(3) status from
the religious organization) that provides services to people regardless of their religious beliefs and does not propagate a belief in a specific faith are eligible for this program.Example: A food bank that is a separate 501 (c)(3) organization from a church that provides food and meals to anyone who qualifies for services, regardless of religious belief would qualify.">>>

hey, sounds good to me.

<<<Now what this fairly explicitly says is that a food bank that is not separate from a church does not qualify. By extension, and I think fairly clearly implied within the text, any school or organisation associated with a particular religion would be seen as discriminatory and thereby excluded. Obviously this practice itself is discriminatory.>>>

it most definitely is.

<<<Now, let us consider the concept of discrimination. Common usage of the word implies that discimination is always wrong. This is not so. As a simple example, we discriminate against murderers by putting them in prisons. Discrimination simply means treating people differently whatever the reason.>>>

total agreement.

<<<In Adobe's text they refer to " organizations having unlawful discriminatory practices". That these groups are lumped in with churches, temples, etc., implies that Adobe considers them to also be a form of unlawful discrimination and that for Adobe to discriminate against them (by not offering the same terms) is therefore justified. Ah, you say, but churches were not included in the "eligible" list anyway so what's the big deal?>>>

yep.

<<<Quite so, however, what Adobe's statement does is say that they will support schools that do not have any religious affiliation but will not support schools that do. What they are effectively saying is hide your religion or have none if you want free software. Think about that. "We want nothing to do with any discrimination of any kind".>>>>

how secularly-humanist of them. what I think about is the real world my friend. the world where Adobe is an international software company in scores of countries who has a policy that says simply: "We don't want to get involved in the contentious area of religion as a for-profit company with a freebie software program. Its really just a ploy to get future business and if we have to loose one more penny with some crank for whatever reason, it's now worth it. Draw a line, a reasonable one and get on with living in God's world."

<<<That's discriminatory in the same way that people who preach tolerance will not accept a position that they see as intolerant - they are intolerant of "intolerance" and thereby not practicing what they preach. Adobe is apparently preaching against "wrongful discrimination" but is discriminating to do so.>>>

How amusing. Abstracting the issue so you can rant against a secular society. In all likelihood, you are a conservative christian and we all know the script already....move on CLOWN.

<<<But are they discriminating wrongfully? Ultimately that is "mind of the beholder" stuff (and yes, I know that's not the phrase) if we do not know why Adobe is doing this. The effect of their statement is to treat schools or food banks with religious affiliations as if they were guilty of unlawful discrimination. I would say that was wrong because what they are doing is promoting secularism over religion.>>>>

that might be so, might not, none of us are Adobe so its all speculation really (wait, Adobe is a non-human, for-profit corporation, a front-corporation of the Secular Conspiracy who has policies against those religious people).

Ae you going to hunt down every institution in our societies and make sure we are all giving the proper resepect for religion? And please flesh out for us why it IS wrong to promote secularism over religion?

<<<The irony of this will be lost on most people. Secularism or secular humanism is actually a belief system in the same way that the world's religions are and was acknowledged as a religion by the US Supreme Court as far back as 1961 (Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. 488)). However, secularism is a belief system that has no need of churches or ceremonies because it does not declare itself a religion, it simply regards itself as obvious truth. It also has no need of special schools to promote its belief system because it argues that all religious teaching is wrong and "unconstitutional" and essentially tries to turn all schools into secular schools.>>>

What a mountain of BS, you go from one point and make this MONUMENTAL leap. Where to start....The quoted case is interesting, will gladly look that one up, but until verified will have to set aside.....your definition of secularism is certainly the most interesting one i've heard. did you actually read that one before you posted it? does it possibly strike you as a little subjective? a little artistic license perhaps. wow.

here's mine:

the view that religious considerations should be excluded from civic affairs and public education

-from The American Heritage College Dictionary, Fourth Edition

a different perspective, i'll admit. but it is perhaps a little less _weird_ than your definition....

without spending an unending amount of time on this (God please help me), we here in the US (I don't know about Winnepeg) can rememeber when government and religion created a few problems for people. We also noticed that favored religions inevitably got inordinate representation and it was in a common sense way unfair. What a **cking concept. I wish we could find a way to avoid that.....what could we do?!?!?!?!?!

maybe we could resurrect someone who died several hundred years ago and find a solution!

You see, there are many religions. They can't all be represented, and a real-world solution secular goverment (and corporations, as public institutions, have largely adopted this same position). It works!

I live in the US; in Houston, and churches are everywhere. There are mosques, temples and synagogues all around me. And I am glad. I really am. Freedom is beatiful. And people can freely practice religion is a democratic, secular society, bar-none.

But I get **cking angry when this obfuscation is peddled by one particular part of the Christian religion. Its no coincidence. The think tanks have spawned a script that is so adhered to, you might think it was a lost part of the Gospel!

And the most hilarious part of it is that it is all politics. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion, it is to its core a distraction for a political base to endlessly spin their heads around and sell their vote to one party. That party then does nothing substantial for their zealotry and is just as corrupt as everybody else. Laughable. They will never wake up.

[lamewing]

By the gods, what is wrong with this person, SuperChicken? Mr. Chicken....I have read and reread the Adobe statement and I have one simple point to add. It states that it doesn't support ANY religious group, yet you are getting so high and mighty claming that Adobe is discriminating SPECIFICALLY against christians. WHY do you keep tring to make it seem as if the christians are SOLEY being discriminated against? It seems clear that Adobe just doesn't want to support ANY religious group, no matter who/what they worship.

Get it this through your head and quit wasting the bandwith.

[enigmamf]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Yes it is, have you never heard of a Christian high school? A Christian soup kitchen? News flash this means that groups like the Salvation Army are not eligible for this sort of thing, nor are any other groups. Essentially you have to be non-Christian to receive Adobe's discount. My concern is the religious discrimination.

Versus...

"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12 curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working to prevent hunger or homelessness."

I'm pretty sure a christian school, so long as their primary mission were K-12 education, would qualify for the products.

Get over it, this isn't some conspiracy to rid the world of religion by denying churches the ability to create frickin' NEWSLETTERS for free. Some conspiracy! Take off your tin foil hat and just acknowledge the fact that they decided to limit their free products to education and secular charity.



(wow, I've been a member for 6 years and this is my first post?)

[enigmamf]

By the way, your Faith-Based iMac is disturbing to me.

[Erebus]

If you don't think religions are dicriminatory try attending a Mormon wedding.
Hell if your not Christian your going to hell right. Christians only. Discrimination.
And I won't even start in about all the infidels out there.
My religion is better than your right?

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by enigmamf

(wow, I've been a member for 6 years and this is my first post?)

This has to be a new record!
Give this man a gold star. Oh wait..

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by holdonamoment

Firstly, should this be in a blog? If anyone cares to look up the origin of the word forum they will find that this is actually quite appropriate material for a forum. From the Oxford American dictionary "a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged". Superchicken has a view he wishes to exchange; sounds like that fits.

If you spent more time on the forum, you'd know my love of etymologies.

In my comment, I was concerned with style. The first post of the thread comes off more like a LiveJournal "mood: pissed; music: inspirational" entry than an opening for discussion. See fig. a: the title, where he writes "I'm Bloody Pissed At Adobe Right Now." Then, fig. b: the post. Then, read my posts on page one and get back to me.

He can rant all he wants in a blog. He can discuss it with people who actually care in the comments.

[waxcrash]

Originally Posted by AKcrab

This has to be a new record!
Give this man a gold star. Oh wait..

Before we give enigmamf a gold star, we must give Superchicken his trophy…

[gorgonzola]

Flush.