[Adam_AIS]

I've been considering purchasing a G4 for some time now. I'm not a novice when it comes to the OS, as I have been using it in school for years, but I'm still learning about the hardware and system capabilities (I'm one of those PC guys who needs the graphic capabilities of the Mac). I'm looking to spend about $2,000 including a monitor (if at all possible). I'm currently debating between the G4 Workstation and the G4 Cube:

G4 Cube - $1350
Processor: G4 450MHz
RAM: 320MB (after free 256MB upgrade)
Drives: 20GB IDE and DVD

G4 Workstation - $1700
Processor: G4 466MHz
RAM: 384MB (after free 256MB upgrade)
Drives: 30GB IDE and CD-RW

From my where I see it the main disadvantage of the Cube is expandability and an older 100MHz system bus. I have also heard complaints that the hard drive in the Cube is too slow for video editing or capturing. However according to Apple's web site both the Cube and Workstation include 5400 RPM drives (unless you go for a 40GB or larger drive).

What are your guy's feelings about this? I'm a web developer by trade so the majority of the work I'd be doing would be DreamWeaver, FireWorks, Internet Explorer, Netscape, PhotoShop, Illustrator, Flash, and maybe Premier and Final Cut Pro occasionally. With the current prices the Cube and the Apple 15" LCD display would be a pretty cool combination for just around $2,000.

[Leonis]

Go for the tower....so that you can get an extra video card to hook to a second monitor

If you are using those "heavy" apps you will need a second monitor. Trust me....those apps are palatte heavy and can easily occpuy over 60% of your work space. I have a second monitor just for palattes.....I leave ALL palette open on the second screen like no tomorrow ..... very convenient.

Tower is more pricy but really worth it.....

BTW....video card for the second monitor doesn't need to be too good. The one with 4MB VRAM will be enough....you can find those card in many places and they are very cheap (like $30 bucks)....


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My comic web site

I don't use spell checker.

[This message has been edited by Leonis (edited 03-31-2001).]

[Leonis]

Check this link

Hope they will give you some idea on how nice it is to have a second display



[This message has been edited by Leonis (edited 03-31-2001).]

[Cipher13]

Tower, without a doubt.
On top of its superiority in speed and expansion, the Cube is officially dead, just about.
Don't prolong its death. Let it be
Towers rock.


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[zigzag]

I don't assume that a given machine is best for everyone. The Cube is plenty fast, and its quietness and compactness and attractiveness are real advantages, but it's obviously not as versatile as a tower. It will only support one monitor and one internal hard drive. Only you can decide whether this matters to you.

If you find that you're not satisfied with the standard 20 or 30 GB drives, you can easily put a faster hard drive in either machine. I don't think you can upgrade the DVD Cube at The Apple Store, but you'd get more value by doing it yourself anyway. You can buy a new 40 GB 7200 RPM drive for less than $175 now, a 60 GB for less than $250. With the tower, you could just plug in the extra drive and have two. With the Cube, you could install a new drive and either sell the old one on ebay or put it in a Firewire enclosire.

If you're on a budget, you might also consider looking around for one of the previous model G4 towers - they are very powerful machines for the $$.

I love my flat screen display but you have to be careful about color fidelity if you're doing graphics work.

They're both great machines - just depends on your priorities.

[clifhirtle]

Originally posted by Adam_AIS:
I'm looking to spend about $2,000 including a monitor (if at all possible). I'm currently debating between the G4 Workstation and the G4 Cube... I'm a web developer by trade so the majority of the work I'd be doing would be DreamWeaver, FireWorks, Internet Explorer, Netscape, PhotoShop, Illustrator, Flash, and maybe Premier and Final Cut Pro occasionally. With the current prices the Cube and the Apple 15" LCD display would be a pretty cool combination for just around $2,000.

Adam -

Looks like you've done your homework on these two systems already, so i'll try and skip the basics. Having used both the newest Cube and Tower i can honestly say that there are more similarities between the two machines than differences. If you're charging your clients by the second - go for the Tower b/c that's about the time savings you're going to get with the faster mobo, graphics. If you were comparing a 733mHz Tower and a 450mHz Cube we might have something to talk about here, but you're not and for this reason the differences are largely aesthetic:

Go for the Tower if you've used internal expansion cards in the past, see the need for them in the future, or recite the acronyms PCI, AGP, DDR in your sleep, don't mind the significant hum (some might say roar) of a high-power fan while you work, and ultimately value pure performance over outright cost.

Go for the Cube if you've never used internal expansion cards in the past, don't really see the need for them in the future, and recite the terms design, simplicity, silence in your sleep, don't mind adding additional hard drives/CDR/W drives externally, and ultimately value outright cost/size over pure performance.

I used a Tower at work and i need it as i am swapping out drives, adding/removing memory, removing expansion cards almost daily. But i've also experienced the tranquility of coming home to the total silence and one-of-a-kind beauty of a Cube + flat-panel.

Price-wise go Apple Store for Education (www.apple.com/education/store) and you'll find a base Cube + LCD = <$2000, while the Cube + CRT = <$1700 (less than the base model for Tower by itself). Those are truly great prices.

So if you haven't guessed already i, myself, would go Cube. And yes, i use Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Photoshop daily. A more crucial decision (to a graphics person) is which display you're going to choose.


- C

[Adam_AIS]

In terms of monitor size, the majority of the work I do is web development, rather then design. The primary purpose of the machine in my eye would be for compatibility testing, QuickTime development, and running applications that are native to the Mac OS such as Adobe and Macromedia products. I've seen the 15" LCD and I think it will do just fine. I'd probably upgrade the RAM to at least 500MB+ and up the drive to a 7200RPM 40GB+ drive with either the Cube or the Tower. This will be my forth computer (the rest are PC's) so size is an issue and the Cube does have the advantage there.

Putting aside upgrade-ability and expandability, what about performance? Are there any other users who own a Tower and a Cube that can add a comment based on actual comparative experience?

If you're doing web development, stick with a PC it will make your life much easier. I've also found that IMO Dreamweaver runs better on a PC. Having said all that i only own one PC and all my Web development is done on a Pismo.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by opallaser:
If you're doing web development, stick with a PC it will make your life much easier. I've also found that IMO Dreamweaver runs better on a PC. Having said all that i only own one PC and all my Web development is done on a Pismo.

How about no...
The only thing you'll need a wintel for is checking for compatibility - Virtual PC with a few browsers does that perfectly
Macs rule for web development, especially with OSX and the latest Perl and whatnot.


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[marc]

After adding a $700 flat panel display, more memory and a new HD to your system, you are not going to meet your $2000 goal. If your space and budget limitations are relatively inflexible, then the Cube is the way you have to go. Otherwise, while I do not think you will see much performance difference between the machines, I think you will be happier with the tower.

As a PC techie, it is going to kill you to have a machine you can't mess around with. You will regret the Cube every time some hot new board or upgrade comes out. And the 2nd monitor issue is significant with the software you plan to use. But the software you talk about is expensive. Do you have a separate software budget? If you truly only want to compatibility test on a 15" screen, get an iMac. If you really want to do high end graphics and video, plan on spending more money. As a compromise, I suggest using one of your existing monitors with the tower. Definitely add more RAM, but hold off on the HD until you need it (which you do not for iMovie). You will either use the Mac much more, or much less, than you think. It doesn't make sense to limit youself, on the one hand, or spend too much, on the other. HTH

Macs rule for many things, but web development is not one of them. I'll put the comps together in Photoshop on a Mac, but from there on in, im back on a PC(most of the time). Why ? Because i know that what i do will be compatible with the most number of end users. Yes i check it for compatibility on a Mac, but i'd rather start out designing for the majority and then tweak it for the rest than the other way around. Please don't think i'm trashing Macs, i love macs as much as anyone, but there are not the best solution in every case. Keep an open mind.

I must qualify this by saying i think that Mac OS X is going to be a fantastic environment for web development, with it's JAVA capabilities etc

[Adam_AIS]

One of my clients is an Authorized Apple Reseller so I'll be getting an employee discount from them. They will also be helping me out with software. So my budget is really going to depend on the prices they offer me. I'm just looking at all of my options right now. I'll probably end up getting a Tower if the price is affordable after their discount. But the Cube is mighty attractive.

[Adam_AIS]

Marc,

I've taken a few classes at school that used iMac's. I wasn't too crazy about them. The performance is all right but the screen is just a tad too small (I think it's around 14" were the 15" LCD is actually 15"). Plus the LCD looks cool and will fit right on my desk with the rest of my PC's.

[Raman]

Web development != Java (JSP).

That being said.. Java has it's strengths. It is not the be-all-end-all. JSP was invented in response to ASP and other web scripting languages so that Java people could do scripting without learning something new. It's slow. And that's documeted.

Use PHP for web development. You will find that it is very fast and the syntax is very similar to C, Java, PERL, etc.. Plus you can develop PHP on the PeeCee and Macintosh (with OSX) which is what I do (everything on my PowerBook G3 500). Beware that after you start using PHP or merely start reading up on it, you'll soon realize that ASP/JSP sux and you'll be saying "I can do this in 4 lines of PHP where it takes me 10-20 in ASP or JSP - with alot more overhead".

Don't use PERL for web dev. Like Java, it's not the right tool, either. PERL is good for alot of things but web development isn't it.

Of course, at work I use slow-ass ASP on NT4/2K. It's funny how M$ tells you to use ASP for the presentation layer and COM/COM+/DCOM for the business rules and data access layer YET they let you use ADO in your ASP script. WTF?? If you don't want me to use it because it's bad then why give me the tools to do it??

Anyway, I'd get the Cube if I were you - but beware, you will realize that you like the Macintosh better and will soon start to disown your PeeCee's and will purchase more Macintoshes soon thereafter.

[Adam_AIS]

My firm specializes in PHP/mySQL development for corporate and enterprise applications. Lately we've been developing PHP based e-commerce sites. I do a far amount of graphics and multimedia work too though.

[G4ME]

Go to macmall or any other resellers and try and find your self an "old" dual 450 with a monitor, and I think that would be around 2000, this would be I deal for those with a budet because I can sittl run X and use it fully with two processors.

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I Have a Super Computer

I was in he exact same situation as you. I couldn't decide if I wanted the Cube or the low-end Tower. Yes, the tower sure does offer more expandability. 4XAGP vs 2X. 133MHz bus vs 100MHz bus. All that jazz. Then I took a look at how I used a computer. Mostly office work, some Photoshop, a tiny but of gaming (Oni, Deus Ex type stuf), ripping MP3's watching streaming vids, listening to streaming audio, FileMaker Pro, watching the occasional DVD. What I found was this-

1) If you buy the new tower- no DVD. Sure, you get a CD-RW, but have you ever seen an external firewire DVD player? It's easier to get the internal DVD and for the extra $300 buy an external CD/RW and you have two drives. Copy CD's.

2) OSX. Although it shows the love to MP machines the finder interaction doesn't benefit from Duals. So that $300 difference could be put back for that eventual Cube Processor board upgrade XLR8 or PowerLogix will be happy to sell you at some point down the road when faster processors are available.

3) Unless you are doing serious gaming, the Rage128 is more than enough. I sold my Lombard to buy my new machine, and I was happy with the PB's performance. The G4 Cube is like night and day, performace wise.

4) $300. That'll buy you a CD/RW, or an AirPort station, or a portable MP3 player, or almost get you a Yamaha RU-100 USB Stereo Reciever with some nice speakers from Crutchfield. In other words, $300 buys a lot and the speed difference between the two isn't that great. Same vid card, same speed HD, nearly same processor.

In the end, it is just as was previously mentioned. What are you gonna do with it? I'm happy with my Cube. Silent. Cool speakers. Very nice to use.

Now, if I could buy a 1.2GHz G4 upgrade card so OSX would fly, I'd be reaLLY HAPPY.

[clifhirtle]

Originally posted by marc:
As a PC techie, it is going to kill you to have a machine you can't mess around with. You will regret the Cube every time some hot new board or upgrade comes out.

As a PC techie perhaps you are not aware of the expandability and techie-savvy qualities of the Cube? As a MAC techie i can assure you that nearly every component shipping in a Cube is upgradeable and as easily accessed as any standard tower-based PC or Mac on the market today. One push on the bottom handle of a Cube will pull the entire contents of the machine out of its casing and allow access to RAM, Airport, hard drive, and video card. Anyone who says a Cube is not easily accessed or easily expandable has not really investigated this machine fully. Go to your local store and ask for a demo yourself. The pictures on Apple's website hardly do this machine's design justice.

As a compromise, I suggest using one of your existing monitors with the tower.

I'll say it again... any graphics professional spending 8-9 hours/day in front of a computer screen is going to want the a high quality display that is as easy on their eyes as possible. Having used both the iMac, Apple 17" Studio Display (CRT), and the 15" LCD i stand firmly behind my conviction that the LCD (though more costly) is far, far easier to utilize for extended periods of time when doing graphics or highly intensive work.

Personally the extra $400 i spend on a LCD display today is worth far more than than the thousands of dollars i might spend on corrective lenses/surgery from using a low-quality/refresh CRT display.

And the point about purchasing an external CDRW drive over the internals shipping in current higher-end Cubes/Towers is even more prominent when you consider that these drives are only running at 8/4/32 and you can buy an external 16/10/40 for under $300 and have Toast prebundled and conduct direct disc-disc burns

Several months from now the $1299 Cube is still going to have been a great buy b/c no matter how you slice it you're getting G4-class power and expandability for nearly a grand. Hypothetically you could throw in a decent 17" display and still beat the price of an iMac! This alone makes the Cube a great deal in my eyes.

- C

[This message has been edited by clifhirtle (edited 04-03-2001).]