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Obama and McCain forum. Your thoughts
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so what did you think of this "faith" based forum?
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Obama gave mostly vague answers, McCain a bit more specific so far (at the half way point)
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hmm dunno. Obama seems more genuine. McCain seems just to spew the same old lines. But they are both polititions with the presidency on their agenda. McCain is scaring me with the Drill now and federal Internet monitoring for "National Security" reasons. Doesn't China say the same about the Internet?
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I thought McCain came across much better (surprisingly). Even his energy policy was far more defined. Drill in the short term, develop wind, tide, hydroelectric, hybrid and electric cars and nuclear power in the long term. Short, to the point yet complete.
Obama (at least to me) seemed as if he were dancing around some of the answers. (Such as the answer about evil in the world, and especially when life begins.) I would have rather he just stated his opinion, even if his opinion were unpopular.
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Obama was more long winded. It was good, because the issues he was talking about were complex issues. But, it didn't play as well to the audience. Obama not talking directly to the audience was also weaker.
McCain came off as un-informed. He repeatedly referred to the crisis in Rwanda. No one caught it, which was sad. The audience was more interested in bravado than a President who knew his stuff.
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I still don't understand why people want issues such as abortion and gay marriage and such to be treated as presidential issues?
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Originally Posted by besson3c
I still don't understand why people want issues such as abortion and gay marriage and such to be treated as presidential issues?
Because if the President doesn't tell you that you are right, how will you ever feel good about yourself?
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Originally Posted by goMac
Because if the President doesn't tell you that you are right, how will you ever feel good about yourself?
Exactly
What I don't understand is why so many Republicans will babble on about how they don't trust the government or want the government to be involved in our lives (the Net Neutrality thread is a great example), yet want the government to dictate to us whether or not we can have abortions or marry somebody of the same sex.
If you *really* think these things should be legalized or made illegal, these should be state issues, not presidential issues.
I've never understand the whole "value voters" crap, nor do I think I ever will I'm so far out of touch with Republicans when it comes to social issues, I have a much easier time seeing their point of view when it comes to economic issues.
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FWIW: I don't think the government should be involved in ANY marriage. Gay or otherwise. That's a church issue. Civil rights between couples are a different matter and should be left up to the states. If anything I'd like to see the state out of the marriage business entirely.
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Originally Posted by besson3c
What I don't understand is why so many Republicans will babble on about how they don't trust the government or want the government to be involved in our lives (the Net Neutrality thread is a great example), yet want the government to dictate to us whether or not we can have abortions or marry somebody of the same sex.
The Republicans have become a party of contradictions. And I hate to bring up McCain's technology policy again, but a few days ago he (finally) released his official policy. In it, he states that he is against government involvement with the internet matters. However, he is for federal censoring of offensive content on the internet, and for federal involvement in finding file sharers. He also doesn't want to tell the ISP's what they need to do, with one exception, and that is when he needs to tell the ISP's what to do. Oh, and he wants the feds to be in charge of development of the internet and technology. But remember, he's the one to vote for if you don't want the government involved in your internet!
Another very clear cut policy from McCain.
And tonight I thought he did a very good job of sidestepping all that. Between his stories about Vietnam, and his rhetoric about getting Bin Laden, it was an all talk and no content speech. I found it funny that he stated he would go anywhere to get Bin Laden, but publicly he has already said he would not follow Bin Laden to Pakistan (I bet I know where Bin Laden will be if McCain gets elected.) The man is full of contradictions. Not surprising considering he fired his top campaign advisors a few months ago and replaced them all with Bush veterans...
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Originally Posted by driven
FWIW: I don't think the government should be involved in ANY marriage. Gay or otherwise. That's a church issue. Civil rights between couples are a different matter and should be left up to the states. If anything I'd like to see the state out of the marriage business entirely.
This is the best way to approach it. The right demands that marriage is a religious issue. I say give them what they want. Take marriage entirely out of the federal realm and give it to churches. Married couples, if they want to be seen as married in the eyes of the state, can also get a civil union.
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Originally Posted by goMac
This is the best way to approach it. The right demands that marriage is a religious issue. I say give them what they want. Take marriage entirely out of the federal realm and give it to churches. Married couples, if they want to be seen as married in the eyes of the state, can also get a civil union.
Agreed 100%
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I was switching back and forth between the forum, the Olympics, and the Jets game, so I probably missed some key moments. I wish this had been done without a live audience. McCain's canned applause lines were really grating to me. I'm not saying that Obama didn't pull from his stump speech or include applause lines, but it felt like McCain was grandstanding, and taking it less seriously.
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It matters not who gets voted into the office. 'Tis all just a game to distract you from the fact that the IRS runs the place.
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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I'm shocked! Shocked to find that liberals thought Obama did better and that conservatives thought McCain did better! This is beyond the pale!
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Originally Posted by chris v
I'm shocked! Shocked to find that liberals thought Obama did better and that conservatives thought McCain did better! This is beyond the pale!
I think the idea was probably not to convince those who've already made up their mind and have closed their minds, but rather to help give the 20+% of undecided voters some tools to help them make their decisions.
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It sickens me to think that abortion, gay marriage, and the like will be tipping point issues that get people to vote for a particular candidate.
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Originally Posted by besson3c
It sickens me to think that abortion, gay marriage, and the like will be tipping point issues that get people to vote for a particular candidate.
I'll agree with you on the gay marriage issue, but on abortion I'd have to disagree. (Not that I'm advocating one side or the other) but if it is your core belief that abortion is murder then yes, I can see how that can change someone's vote.
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How about embryonic stem cell research?
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Originally Posted by besson3c
I still don't understand why people want issues such as abortion and gay marriage and such to be treated as presidential issues?
Originally Posted by besson3c
It sickens me to think that abortion, gay marriage, and the like will be tipping point issues that get people to vote for a particular candidate.
Is there an echo in here?
Originally Posted by chris v
I'm shocked! Shocked to find that liberals thought Obama did better and that conservatives thought McCain did better! This is beyond the pale!
Indeed!
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I don't think Obama did as well as McCain, but you have to admit it was a hostile audience. These are people who poll %70 for McCain, and we already know they agree with McCain's policies. McCain was able to just give flat out answers, while Obama was looking for a middle ground. You'd have to be pretty partisan to not see this as a debate heavily in McCain's favor.
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CNN was reporting (blogging) that the audience was tilted favorably toward Obama.
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Originally Posted by besson3c
It sickens me to think that abortion, gay marriage, and the like will be tipping point issues that get people to vote for a particular candidate.
Holy cow, issues that actually affect people coming up in an election debate? This is horrible!
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Originally Posted by Chuckit
Holy cow, issues that actually affect people coming up in an election debate? This is horrible!
There are lots of other issues that affect people that people don't expect the government to address as well.
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Originally Posted by besson3c
There are lots of other issues that affect people that people don't expect the government to address as well.
Yes, but these are issues the government does address, so it seems like a reasonable expectation.
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Well, it sickens me that these people don't stop to think that maybe these issues should not be issues for the government. Just because they have been treated as government issues doesn't mean that they should be destined to forever.
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Originally Posted by besson3c
Well, it sickens me that these people don't stop to think that maybe these issues should not be issues for the government. Just because they have been treated as government issues doesn't mean that they should be destined to forever.
Reads like something a libertarian would write. You better be careful, besson - you're starting to make sense!
Originally Posted by goMac
McCain came off as un-informed. He repeatedly referred to the crisis in Rwanda. No one caught it, which was sad. The audience was more interested in bravado than a President who knew his stuff.
I don't get what your beef is. He referred to both Rwanda and Darfur separately. Are you saying he meant to say Sudan instead of Rwanda?
(
Last edited by Big Mac; Aug 17, 2008 at 05:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by Big Mac
Reads like something a libertarian would write. You better be careful, besson - you're starting to make sense!
See, that's why I don't see eye to eye with the Republican way of thinking - I disagree with them strongly on their stance on most social issues and religious connection, I think the Iraq war was a big mistake, and I don't have the same seemingly unconditional, broadly reaching faith in the unregulated free market.
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Originally Posted by besson3c
Well, it sickens me that these people don't stop to think that maybe these issues should not be issues for the government. Just because they have been treated as government issues doesn't mean that they should be destined to forever.
And that itself is a position that a presidential candidate might have on these issues. So you see, you would also like to see these candidates have a stance on these issues, because the status quo is not in line with how you think it should be.
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Chuckit: if not having a position that would be acted upon is a position, fine, you win this debate, but I think you're parsing words a little too finely...
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Originally Posted by driven
CNN was reporting (blogging) that the audience was tilted favorably toward Obama.
I'd be surprised, the audience seemed to heavily favor McCain.
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Originally Posted by goMac
I'd be surprised, the audience seemed to heavily favor McCain.
Candy Crowley said something about McCain "winning over the crowd".
Personally I think they were McCain friendly than CNN let on.
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Originally Posted by besson3c
Chuckit: if not having a position that would be acted upon is a position, fine, you win this debate, but I think you're parsing words a little too finely...
I really don't think I am. Not having a position on these matters is tantamount to saying, "I support the current state of politics in which these are considered to be government matters." If you think the government should stay out of these matters, that is taking a libertarian position.
It's like if this were back in the days of segregation and people were talking about black rights and you're saying, "I don't think the government has any business deciding what rights various races have, so nobody should be talking about it." Well, if the issue were never brought up because it was "not the government's business," the government would have kept treating blacks unfairly. It's relevant political discourse precisely because the government should not be making such laws.
(
Last edited by Chuckit; Aug 18, 2008 at 02:46 AM.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Give me a break ....
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i hate religion!!11!1
It makes politicians lie more than they already do. You can't win unless you believe in an invisible man who watches everything that you do. And he has 10 things that you cannot do or you will burn and suffer forever and ever till the end of time...
BUT HE LOVES YOU.
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Originally Posted by D. S. Troyer
]i hate religion!!11!1
It makes politicians lie more than they already do. You can't win unless you believe in an invisible man who watches everything that you do. And he has 10 things that you cannot do or you will burn and suffer forever and ever till the end of time...
BUT HE LOVES YOU.
Dude, don't censor yourself. Tell us how you really feel.
PS: You should look up this guy "Jesus".
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Originally Posted by D. S. Troyer
i hate religion!!11!1
It makes politicians lie more than they already do. You can't win unless you believe in an invisible man who watches everything that you do. And he has 10 things that you cannot do or you will burn and suffer forever and ever till the end of time...
BUT HE LOVES YOU.
If I'm not mistaken this is a George Carlin rift on religion?
Great line...true and great.
Originally Posted by goMac
OMG...lol...these conservatives are the biggest liars of them all....cone of silence my A** , isn't there a Commandment about lying?
(
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Guys ... the topics were given to the candidates ahead of time. Obama even said so much when asked about a government program to help orphans. His response started with "I cheated a bit and looked into this ahead of time."
Both candidates had equal access to the same information.
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the topics were given not the questions.
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You don't need an exact question to compose a reasonable answer from the topics? Haven't you ever passed a test where you were given the topic, but not a photo copy of the test?
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Okay, I'll just come out and say this, although I know there will be backlash.
I honestly think that these so-called values voters are flat out dumb for not realizing the hypocrisy in their ways.
I'm not a bible thumper, but I know that the Bible talks about caring for the poor, the down-trodden, for the planet, and it encourages generosity, compassion, not judging others, etc. How do these values line up with the Republican party? I don't mean these values individually, because I know you can pick this apart, but I mean as a whole... All you have to do is browse these forums to find out what Republicans feel about "government hand outs", welfare, wildlife preservation, war, etc. Thankfully as a whole people here are fairly tolerant, but who do you identify the staunch religious anti-gay anti-abortion crowd with?
Again, I know there are exceptions here, my generalizations are crude, even hypocritical of me for making since I dislike generalizations, but look at the whole picture... Why is it that the religious right are far more mobilized than the religious left? It would seem to me that logically speaking, for many people voting for the Republicans would be voting against their own moral interests, yet it is the abortion and gay marriage type issues that seem to galvanize this base. Whatever happened to not judging your fellow man? Why do their ideological beliefs (which I can respect) trump their care and concern for the poor? For an unpopular war? It just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how I look at it.
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Originally Posted by driven
You don't need an exact question to compose a reasonable answer from the topics? Haven't you ever passed a test where you were given the topic, but not a photo copy of the test?
Not the point...The Pastor said McCain was 'backstage in a cone of silence' where he was actually in a car with TV's, radios and Internet.
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Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by besson3c
Okay, I'll just come out and say this, although I know there will be backlash.
I honestly think that these so-called values voters are flat out dumb for not realizing the hypocrisy in their ways.
I'm not a bible thumper, but I know that the Bible talks about caring for the poor, the down-trodden, for the planet, and it encourages generosity, compassion, not judging others, etc. How do these values line up with the Republican party? I don't mean these values individually, because I know you can pick this apart, but I mean as a whole... All you have to do is browse these forums to find out what Republicans feel about "government hand outs", welfare, wildlife preservation, war, etc. Thankfully as a whole people here are fairly tolerant, but who do you identify the staunch religious anti-gay anti-abortion crowd with?
Again, I know there are exceptions here, my generalizations are crude, even hypocritical of me for making since I dislike generalizations, but look at the whole picture... Why is it that the religious right are far more mobilized than the religious left? It would seem to me that logically speaking, for many people voting for the Republicans would be voting against their own moral interests, yet it is the abortion and gay marriage type issues that seem to galvanize this base. Whatever happened to not judging your fellow man? Why do their ideological beliefs (which I can respect) trump their care and concern for the poor? For an unpopular war? It just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how I look at it.
Because two men kissing is gross.
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My sig is 1 pixel too big.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
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8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Originally Posted by driven
(...) the 20+% of undecided voters (...)
You won't see any of them posting in this thread, though, which was my point.
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When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
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Originally Posted by besson3c
I'm not a bible thumper, but I know that the Bible talks about caring for the poor, the down-trodden, for the planet, and it encourages generosity, compassion, not judging others, etc. How do these values line up with the Republican party?
How the hell does any of that line up with the Democratic Party?
I would think anyone with any kind of real religious conviction would be able to make the distinction between really (as in FOR REAL) giving a good crap about the poor, the down-trodden, the planet, etc. and a bunch of political bullcrap in which all of that is merely slung around as mostly-useless rhetoric.
Talk to some religious people that go personally to some of the worst hell holes on the planet and provide food, clothing, shelter, medical care, etc, vs. a bunch of mostly self-serving nitwits who THINK they've ever done anything for anyone "poor and downtrodden" based pretty much ONLY on pulling a lever for some empty suit spouting a bunch of rhetoric, hiding behind a 'D', then get back to us.
There's VAST gulf of difference.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
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It's like this: The "religious" do generally tend to believe in charity to help the weak. But not government handouts.
That's because the two are completely different things. Charity helps the people who really need that help. Government handouts help the people who are most likely to vote for the party giving them the handouts.
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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