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Charlottesville (Page 8)
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 21, 2017, 12:11 AM
 
Got a short haircut? Well, you may get stabbed for it, if you're in the wrong place.



http://nypost.com/2017/08/19/man-sta...or-a-neo-nazi/
( Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Aug 21, 2017 at 09:18 AM. )
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BadKosh
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Aug 21, 2017, 07:20 AM
 
A squirt gun filled with some thinned down Dave's insanity Sauce is a nice bit of protection. Remember to wear gloves. A bit in the eyes is all it takes.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 21, 2017, 09:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Let me be as clear as possible about AntiFa.

I stand behind people who want to protest the extreme right.
I stand behind people who arm themselves at protests as defense against the extreme right... even if their desire is to provoke the extreme right to give in to their violent tendencies in a ploy to kick the shit out of them.
I even stand by kicking the shit out of someone on the extreme right without direct provocation if the person makes no attempt to escape the legal consequences of their actions. Sometimes people need to get hit, but society isn't broken for not providing legal accommodation.

What I have a problem with are the violent actors who are none of these. Their label is irrelevant.
It isn't though because it skews the numbers involved. There will be people who you stand behind as above who don't believe anything they hear from RW media about Antifa or simply take the name literally and see them as a good thing. These people are likely to label themselves as Antifa.
The RW agenda is to overstate the misbehaviour by and/or adjacent to the left. Some people just enjoy chaos and will turn up alongside the majority crowd to stir up shit and actually start riots. These people will be gleefully labelled Antifa by the RW media. They are free to label whoever they like because as a non-organisation, there is no-one to denounce any persons or activities attributed to the label. As a consequence, the problem looks much bigger than it is and folks like CTP end up thinking that what is in reality only a handful of violent left wing extremists are a bigger threat than the several million white supremacists choosing your POTUS.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
As for Hillary, I can't be skeptical about an argument without understanding it first, and for this to happen I am required to take it seriously.

That, and taking an argument seriously is kinda sorta basic courtesy in a discussion.

Those are my goals here, to understand, and have discussion, i.e. back-and-forth. If my only desire is to state an unyielding claim, other people aren't required.
Are you never skeptical about the source of the argument? Most of the stuff worth giving real thought was reported by the LW media as is typically the case (when you're capable of genuine objectivity). Theres a slant on it for sure, but its rare they ignore or deny things altogether. This is not the case with Fox and co. Cue our right-leaners to moan about the LW media is the worst thing ever in a strikingly similar situation to that where a few rioters look worse than millions of Nazis as mentioned above. Its a neat trick if you have a base that lets you do it. Moreno when the middle ground gets sucked in too.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
As for Hillary, she was such a ****up, even after three decades of trying to do nothing other than work her way up to president, she lost to Donald Trump.

Who didn't even want to win.

Yes, my dislike is particularly strong.
Being a failure is one thing. Your dislike ran much earlier than that. I still feel like most of the 'evidence' against her came from sources that spent so much time saying things about her, and making stuff up about her that even when they hit something worth worrying about you could fully justify ignoring it. I remain surprised that you didn't is all. On other subjects I wouldn't have really questioned it but the campaign against Hillary began immediately after someone first suggested she might fancy being POTUS after Bill was elected. It was calculated and it ultimately paid off.
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subego
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Aug 21, 2017, 03:32 PM
 
If I had interest in inflating the numbers, why would I define my issue so narrowly? Change the label to whatever, so they can be upbraided for making it worse.
     
subego
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Aug 21, 2017, 04:32 PM
 
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 21, 2017, 05:41 PM
 
Black conservative brutally assaulted by Antifa over buying a book. The man was walking out with the book in a bag, which was torn open and searched as he was leaving. Finding out what it was (presumably something written by someone they don't like), one of them threw the book on the sidewalk and kicked it into the street. Immediately after, another terrorist sucker-punches the victim and jumps on top of him, beating him into unconsciousness.



Yeah, they're real heroes.
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Waragainstsleep
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Aug 21, 2017, 08:05 PM
 
Antifa are occupying way too much of your headspace. Much like SJWs and feminists before them. Meanwhile the millions of Trump-voting Nazis aren't worth worrying about at all. Your priorities are a mess.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Aug 21, 2017, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Antifa are occupying way too much of your headspace. Much like SJWs and feminists before them. Meanwhile the millions of Trump-voting Nazis aren't worth worrying about at all. Your priorities are a mess.
Agreed. You're obsessing, CTP. We could sit here and look for ugly videos, stories, articles, statements, etc. about all sorts of extremist groups, but I'm not sure what would be gained. What interests you about whatever it is you are doing?
( Last edited by besson3c; Aug 21, 2017 at 08:39 PM. )
     
Chongo
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Aug 21, 2017, 10:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Antifa are occupying way too much of your headspace. Much like SJWs and feminists before them. Meanwhile the millions of Trump-voting Nazis aren't worth worrying about at all. Your priorities are a mess.
Who has been showing up at college campuses and shutting down speakers? Who does he Chancellor of Berkeley need and escape hatch from? It's not from right wing groups.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 21, 2017, 11:24 PM
 
"millions of Trump-voting Nazis"? He outright lies about it, too. You catch that? There's maybe 10,000 white nationalists in the USA, at most, while there are at least 120k Antifa (and 5x that many who are associated) who are far more likely to get violent, and are currently terrorizing cities throughout the USA.

Antifa are today's Nazis; they're identitarian socialists, hell-bent on forcing their beliefs onto others, by any means necessary. It's no wonder I permanently placed WAS on my ignore list, I recommend doing the same.
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subego
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Yesterday, 01:17 AM
 
10K white supremacists, or 10K white nationalists?

I'd say there are far more than 10K white nationalists.
     
OreoCookie
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Yesterday, 01:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Who has been showing up at college campuses and shutting down speakers?
You are not answering the question: How do you know how widespread the problem is and whether it is overblown? You can't really judge solely on news report, that'd be like judging the frequency of fires talking to firefighters about their work life (fires everywhere and all the time!!).
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Paco500
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Yesterday, 03:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
"millions of Trump-voting Nazis"? He outright lies about it, too. You catch that? There's maybe 10,000 white nationalists in the USA, at most, while there are at least 120k Antifa (and 5x that many who are associated) who are far more likely to get violent, and are currently terrorizing cities throughout the USA.

Antifa are today's Nazis; they're identitarian socialists, hell-bent on forcing their beliefs onto others, by any means necessary. It's no wonder I permanently placed WAS on my ignore list, I recommend doing the same.
Do you have anything to back up ANY of those numbers? From a reputable news source if possible?
     
OreoCookie
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Yesterday, 05:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
10K white supremacists, or 10K white nationalists?

I'd say there are far more than 10K white nationalists.
Yup. The claim that 10-15 % of all white supremacists congregated in Charlottesville is very hard to believe, and I don't see any evidence that CPT bases this on any particular source. Estimates are that there KKK members alone make up 5,000–8,000 people, and there are many more (e. g. the American Nazi Party or the Aryan Brotherhood). Add to that the problem of defining where to draw the line (in particular what Alt Right means, are you talking about Richard Spencer-Alt Right or Breitbart-Alt Right, and would you include the latter in the tally?). Then there are certain militias which might meet that criterion. But 10,000 in a country of 305,000,000, that seems veeeeery unrealistic.

His claims on the antifa on the other hand seem inflated (“and 5x that many who are associated”), especially since “the” antifa doesn't exist as an organization and anarchists are not that big on building big organizations either. Plus, many anarchist and antifascists are peaceful. In any case, it is a weak comparison.
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Waragainstsleep
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Yesterday, 05:35 AM
 
I keep saying it: Antifa is a brand name and its being applied by the right way more often than its being self proclaimed by anyone.

Also, there was a study saying that a third of Trump voters were white supremacists. 60m voted for him. That study can be way OTT and there are still millions of them. I quoted it somewhere.
Another one found that over 70% of Trump fans were ok with him not condemning the fascists.

CTP is making things up to suit his agenda as usual.
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BadKosh
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Yesterday, 06:50 AM
 
So tell us more about the study YOU have offered up saying 1/3 of Trump voters were WS. Here's a suggestion: go to the US justice Dept or FBI and get some numbers.
     
besson3c
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Yesterday, 08:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
"millions of Trump-voting Nazis"? He outright lies about it, too. You catch that? There's maybe 10,000 white nationalists in the USA, at most, while there are at least 120k Antifa (and 5x that many who are associated) who are far more likely to get violent, and are currently terrorizing cities throughout the USA.

How do you know they are far more likely to get violent?
     
besson3c
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Yesterday, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So tell us more about the study YOU have offered up saying 1/3 of Trump voters were WS. Here's a suggestion: go to the US justice Dept or FBI and get some numbers.

But don't go to the US government for climate change data?
     
Chongo
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Yesterday, 09:21 AM
 
Yeah, the DOJ and FBI could be inflating the numbers.
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besson3c
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Yesterday, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Yeah, the DOJ and FBI could be inflating the numbers.
Distrust is distrust. I'm trying to understand this seemingly inconsistent distrust of government.
     
Chongo
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Yesterday, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Distrust is distrust. I'm trying to understand this seemingly inconsistent distrust of government.
Do you trust the US Geological Survey when it acknowledges that the eruption of Mt Pinatubo lowered global temperatures 1.5F for several years?
( Last edited by Chongo; Yesterday at 11:54 AM. )
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
BadKosh
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Yesterday, 11:03 AM
 
Those numbers were compiled during Obamas term so good point about not trusting them.
     
Jawbone54
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Yesterday, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Also, there was a study saying that a third of Trump voters were white supremacists. 60m voted for him. That study can be way OTT and there are still millions of them. I quoted it somewhere.

Another one found that over 70% of Trump fans were ok with him not condemning the fascists.
I'd be curious to look over those studies.
(not sarcastic)
     
besson3c
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Yesterday, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Do you trust the US Geological Survey when it acknowledges that the eruption of Mt Pinatubo lowered global temperatures 1.5F for several years?

That was not an open invitation for you to share your scientific analysis with us.
     
besson3c
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Yesterday, 01:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Those numbers were compiled during Obamas term so good point about not trusting them.

Okay, so under democratic leadership all government studies are partisan and not to be trusted, and under republican leadership all data except for climate change data should be trusted?

Is this right?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Yesterday, 02:16 PM
 
I'm still amazed over supposed liberals defending Antifa, even to the point of deliberately trying to shield them from just angry comments. How many times do people on the Right need to disavow WS and WN groups? It's about time you disavowed the bad actors on the Left a few times, as well.
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BadKosh
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Yesterday, 02:20 PM
 
when will they start taking down all the Democrat Senator Byrd stuff? You know, the KKK Senator.
     
Chongo
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Yesterday, 02:29 PM
 
When will the "Six Flags" parks become "Five Flags"
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Yesterday, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yup. The claim that 10-15 % of all white supremacists congregated in Charlottesville is very hard to believe, and I don't see any evidence that CPT bases this on any particular source. Estimates are that there KKK members alone make up 5,000–8,000 people, and there are many more (e. g. the American Nazi Party or the Aryan Brotherhood).
You don't know how this works, I guess. Well, kudos to you. Unfortunately, however, I do know how it works, having dealt with the shitty people involved is this ****ed up nonsense. The same people belong to many, many different WN groups, the overlap is pretty close to 100%. They don't just stop at one and say, "Well guys, I'd your join the nazis, but I'm already part of the KKK and that's enough hate for me, thanks for the invite though, xoxo", or "the Grand Cyclops would get mad if I also joined the AB, he's soooo jealous that way". That's not how this works, it's not how any of this works.

Oh, and the SPLC is pitiful, they try to lump in all the alt-Right (which is a large number) with WN/WS, despite the fact that would make people like Tommy Sotomayor WNs, defying all forms of common sense. I suppose they think this is a common sight?


(The above was part of a Youtube skit, not real life.)
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Yesterday, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
when will they start taking down all the Democrat Senator Byrd stuff? You know, the KKK Senator.
WT... The man apologized enough. He admitted his failures of character, 100s of times, and that's good enough for me.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Yesterday, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
10K white supremacists, or 10K white nationalists?

I'd say there are far more than 10K white nationalists.
You could, but I've seen nothing but partisan nonsense that claims otherwise. The campaign to lump all of the alt-Right (and even alt-lite and hardline conservatives) with the WNs has been extremely successful and greatly influenced public perception.
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Chongo
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Yesterday, 02:59 PM
 
Any chance Sir Charles still has his analyst job?
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Chongo
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Yesterday, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You could, but I've seen nothing but partisan nonsense that claims otherwise. The campaign to lump all of the alt-Right (and even alt-lite and hardline conservatives) with the WNs has been extremely successful and greatly influenced public perception.
Goebbels would be proud.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Yesterday, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You don't know how this works, I guess. Well, kudos to you.
Well, I do know how this works: you need to provide clear evidence if you make such a claim, otherwise people think you are just making stuff up.
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Chongo
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Yesterday, 09:37 PM
 
Now it's getting stupid.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Today, 03:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Well, I do know how this works: you need to provide clear evidence if you make such a claim, otherwise people think you are just making stuff up.
No you don't. In fact, I can't believe I need to explain that extremists usually belong to many different extremist groups.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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OreoCookie
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Today, 04:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No you don't. In fact, I can't believe I need to explain that extremists usually belong to many different extremist groups.
There is no need to be condescending. Your point is patently obvious and was never in dispute — as is the fact that many organizations don't have official members, you are a member if you feel associated to that cause. Nevertheless, you made a very specific estimate and appealing to “personal experience” with right-wing extremists doesn't lend any credence to the numbers that you mentioned. So what source did you get your estimates from?
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Today, 05:06 AM
 
The estimated numbers for each group ranges from 5-10k, and knowing the amount of heavy overlap in membership, I'm very comfortable stating it's about 10k WNs.
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BadKosh
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Today, 06:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Okay, so under democratic leadership all government studies are partisan and not to be trusted, and under republican leadership all data except for climate change data should be trusted?

Is this right?
You still don't have any kind of sense of humor do you?
     
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Today, 06:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
WT... The man apologized enough. He admitted his failures of character, 100s of times, and that's good enough for me.
Any everyone who fought on either side of the Civil War is dead. All we have left is the history to learn from, until the leftist assholes want to remove the statues before they start to re-write history to suit the narrative.
     
 
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