[lafiamma]

I know a majority of ppl here are upset of the powerbook update. This is my first post so bear with me.

After seeing the disappointing powerbook update (can we request to "upgrade" steve jobs?), I was p*ssed....really. I truly believe that this update is just to satisfy christmas shoppers.

After lots of forum readings and thinking, I wonder if we might be seeing another PPC Powerbook Update with 7448 before moving into mactel. G5 is completely out of question.

Here are my reasonings, please correct me, flame me...whatever if my assumptions are wrong or unreasonable

1) newly updated or i should say "discounted" powerbook have everything ready to go to facilitate 7448 but somehow apple couldn't managed to include it, evident from the new PB using DDR2.

2) Read about the rumors of problems / difficulties apple had with 7448 and add to the situation of apple diverting more people to concentrate more in mactel. Will they completely abandoned their effort so far after spending so much time to get it to work but failed? Think of it from Steve's perspective, we know that he is a stubborn guy.

3) From current transition prediction, intel PB might not be here till end of 2006. Steve mentioned about bringing consumer lines over to intel before pro lines (i know this planned transition could easily include PB as early as possible which really need a "real" update). And Steve also clarified that apple is on track to deliver intel based product by june 2006. So if my assumptions of intel PB only seeing the light by end of 2006, what will we be seeing from now till then for powerbook? Also remember the powerbook update in 11/2002 and another one in 01/2003 (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/) in such a short span of 2 months? Could it happen again and see a 7448 powered powerbook in MWSF 2006? I don't think there is a chance for intel PB as early as MWSF because even if apple is ready, a lot of pro applications are not and emulations might not be good enough...well for me anyway. Even by june 2006.

4) From apple perspective, I question if it is feasible to introduce intel PB in june 2006 even if they are capable due to the lack of "intel"ized professional applications. And since PB is targeted for pro. One being adobe saying they would start to introduce their applications only at the end of 2006 or early 2007.

5) What would apple be introducing at MWSF 2006? Or what is left for them to introduce then? pico ipod? mega ipod?

maybe my assumptions are lame but I just hope to see a 7448 in PPC before the switch due to my PPC applications, is that too much to ask apple?

opinions?

[pat++]

It's a possibility. One clue also is that the 12" PowerBook didn't get any update (I guess they still have a lot of the current models in stock which is why we didn't see the 12" DDR PowerBook yet). So yes, it's a possibility that Apple actually uses the 7448 and update all models in a couple of months. I guess the reason why they are not here yet is because Freescale is not able to produce them in large quantity yet). All will depend whether the Intel PowerBook are available soon or not (we might actually see them at WWDC, who knows...)

[ibook_steve]

12" is already DDR, but it's only DDR2700.

Steve

[pat++]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve

12" is already DDR, but it's only DDR2700.

Steve

Thank you.

[Randman]

I'd say the PPC is EOL on the PB.

[iLikebeer]

Powerbooks are just as much a consumer product as a pro one. iBooks are only 12 and 14 inches, some people want more than that or don't want white. Many people like to buy "top of the line" and not be worried about buying something new for a while.

I wouldn't be surprised to see an intel powerbook being sold alongside a ppc one for the "pros" that need their old programs.

[cgc]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve

12" is already DDR, but it's only DDR2700.

Steve

He meant "DDR2." The 12" model is not DDR2 like the 15" and 17".

[Helmling]

I don't think the update is that disappointing. People are just fixated on the processor. Honestly, though, don't we all know that short of a generational leap in processors (like the G5 we all knew WASN'T coming) that chip speed isn't that important in performance. The RAM and standard 128 video are more important if you ask me.

I'd still take a new PowerBook over any PC laptop on the market, that's for sure.

[polendo]

What is a 7448? is that a G4 chip? or why should /could it be on a powerbook?

[lafiamma]

Originally Posted by Helmling

I don't think the update is that disappointing. People are just fixated on the processor. Honestly, though, don't we all know that short of a generational leap in processors (like the G5 we all knew WASN'T coming) that chip speed isn't that important in performance. The RAM and standard 128 video are more important if you ask me.

I'd still take a new PowerBook over any PC laptop on the market, that's for sure.

Same here. Give me a PB over PC lappy anyday!

Feature-wise, the new powerbook is not too bad, but after knowing more about 7448 processor, 90nm, cooler, pin-to-pin compatible with 7447A and the double in L2 cache (1mb), i think it would be that much better if it is included. We will get better (maybe not a lot) battery life and a little snappier than what 7447A could offer. I am still dreaming I guess. I mean afterall we have been sitting along G4 side of the fence for so long, expecting G5 until Steve said apple is going to intel, I think 7448 is the least of what apple should offer before the transition. And a good exit out of the PPC era.

[lafiamma]

Originally Posted by polendo

What is a 7448? is that a G4 chip? or why should /could it be on a powerbook?

It is a processor that was supposed to make it to a G4 PB. The current one is 7447A. Here you go http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09...scale_g4_7448/ and this article is over one year old. You can goggle it up too.

Quoted from www.pbzone.com
"
What is the difference between the 7447A G4 and a 7448 G4?

The 7448 is not a magic bullet or a major change from the existing processors found in PowerBooks. Clock speeds for the 7448 are expected to only reach around 1.7 GHz, certainly nothing to get too excited about in sheer performance terms. The major advantage of the revision, though, is much improved power usage. A 1.42 GHz 7447A uses 19 watts of power, while a similar 7448 uses less than 10. Apple could use these power savings to try and improve battery life, or to use better-performing components that were too power hungry when tied to the 7447A. We should add that some of the recent rumors suggest Apple is, in fact, not going to be moving to the 7448 in the new PowerBook revision, but if they do, it could help with battery life or to add performance increases in areas other than the CPU.
"

[polendo]

Thanks! interesting read... better yet it would be interesting to know why wasn't it included on this PB update.

[lafiamma]

polendo, yeah it would be interesting to know, but i think it is either apple think it is not feasible to concentrate in PPC anymore or Freescale couldn't supply enough to them.

Here is another interesting article, close to the second last paragraph. http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1142

Quoted (article date: June 20, 2005)
"
In the meantime, Freescale said the MPC7448 -- which has been sampling since February -- is planned to be in full production in October 2005. The chip will likely begin showing up in Apple laptop-based systems shortly thereafter, offering a substantial increase in battery performance and slight speed boost over today's systems.
"

October 2005, the same time this round of powerbook got updated. Will we be seeing a quiet update to Powerbook? like the mac mini when the supply of 7448 increases? Who knows....I hope so.

[photoeditor]

Even capped at 1.7GHz a 7448 would be a very good addition -- it would put Apple near the head of the pack on battery life, and the doubling of the cache reflects a time-honored Apple tactic for effectively boosting performance when the going gets tough on clock speed. Plus the boost in the system bus. Seven hour battery life on a 15 or 17 Powerbook, perhaps? And one last new PPC motherboard for the iBook and Powerbook 12 inch, yielding eight and 6.5 hours respectively? It should be a good quiet December update before the hubbub of MacWorld San Francisco, but now that I think about it, what else will they introduce in San Francisco?

[redheadfred]

Do you guys really think that they would put out a "silent" update like that on the Powerbook? The mini I could see, but I'd think they would want to make the Powerbook public. I just don't know how much longer I can wait to get a new Powerbook...

[lafiamma]

Originally Posted by redheadfred

Do you guys really think that they would put out a "silent" update like that on the Powerbook? The mini I could see, but I'd think they would want to make the Powerbook public. I just don't know how much longer I can wait to get a new Powerbook...

Maybe, maybe not at all, only apple knows. We are only here to discuss about the possibility and predict based on the amount of info we got online and from rumors. I just feel that there is still something up in apple sleeve in the PPC PB lines (maybe I am dreaming too hard ). But look at the current new PB with every specification perfectly inline to accept a 7448 processor but yet 7448 is missing. I guess maybe apple too is unsure and depends on their engineers and how fast they can get their intel PB out that would dictate if we will see another PPC PB update. I myself predict we won't be seeing an intel PB till end of 2006 and if my prediction is true, will we be left with no updates in PB department till then? That would be more than a year without another PB update? God, 2005 feels long enough already, 2006 is gonna be another "longer" year

[MAC-ALEX]

I was thinking for awhile and really think that Apple want us to switch to Intel faster that they will release if they will ever release intel based Macs. I still think that they don't really know what to do in the future, they could become the second Microsoft or to stay with hardware and software. So, I think they didn't really decide what to do in the future.
Another thing is that MS could buy Apple with their MacOS X. ;-) Jobs leaves Apple and run for governor of Cali and Tim Cook take over the MS MacOS X department. :-)

[lafiamma]

I am not a business savvy guy but I think if M$ is going to acquire apple, apple's shareholders would have a voice to accept or reject the offer. So M$ wouldn't have a chance.

[Randman]

M$ never bought Apple and never will because it would be considered a full monopoly, raise the ire of Congress and be ripe for breaking the company up. One of the reasons why M$ invested in Apple back in the day.

[iomatic]

Meh. If I read their recent 10-K SEC filing correctly, Microsoft has about US$37B cash. Apple is worth today about US$21,557,730,260. According to my unverified, extremely rough estimates, to purchase Apple, Microsoft would have to shell out US$10,994,442,432.6 -- US$11 BILLION dollars to take over Apple at 51% ownership. They could trade shares, etc., but it wouldn't make any sense at all, strategically or financially. More importantly, I don't think there are even that many shares? I could be completely wrong, so a real investor would have to chime in here, as I'm just talking out of my rear-end, mostly.

[Stratus Fear]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve

12" is already DDR, but it's only DDR2700.

"Only?" DDR doesn't really matter much on the powerbook, let alone DDR2 because the front side bus of these machines is so slow. They could tie the powerbook down to old (and no longer manufactured) DDR1600 and it wouldn't matter because the bus is STILL slower.

Guys, please don't say DDR2 is a nice upgrade to these machines. It's not. It doesn't mean anything to a machine where the bus bandwidth is so low in comparison to the memory bandwidth. There's a ton of memory bandwidth going unused -- I guarantee you that the machine gets no benefit from faster RAM. All this does is make Joe Sixpack think that the PowerBook isn't as far behind as it actually is.

There are far better things they could do to upgrade the 12" PowerBook. Sync it up with the 15" and 17" by adding DDR2 is not one of them. It's the most useless thing Apple did with the machines.

[Lateralus]

The only reason the G4s went DDR in the first place was because DDR RAM was becoming much cheaper than SDRAM. Same story now with DDR2 vs DDR.

If the 7448 and its 200MHz bus ever make it into the PowerBook, it will be the first time where a G4 Mac actually requires something more than SDRAM.

[Stratus Fear]

Originally Posted by Lateralus

The only reason the G4s went DDR in the first place was because DDR RAM was becoming much cheaper than SDRAM. Same story now with DDR2 vs DDR.

If the 7448 and its 200MHz bus ever make it into the PowerBook, it will be the first time where a G4 Mac actually requires something more than SDRAM.

I can see that. Price isn't something that was on my mind at the time, since the PowerBook's performance is pretty shameful compared to pretty much anything else. Lower prices are good, but Apple had better be careful how low they clock DDR2 in the powerbook (333MHz isn't any standard DDR2 speed). The latency of DDR2 is much higher so clockspeed is required to compensate. Makes me wonder if the new powerbooks might actually have SLOWER memory performance.

[mduell]

Another advantage of DDR2 aside from price is power consumption. It burns about 30% less power than DDR does.
As for the latency, DDR2 has higher latency at higher clockrates. As you bring the clockrate down, the latency should be the same as DDR. IOW the latency stays the same in terms of time, but increases in terms of cycles as the clockspeed goes up.

[rambo47]

My understanding of what I heard a friend say (talked to someone who knows a guy whose sister dates somebody.......you get the idea) is that the engineers have been trying like hell to get the 7448 into a PowerBook but that Apple just doesn't want to commit the resources necessary before the transition to Intel chips. While it still might happen, it is a longshot at this point. Lines of development that were recently going full steam ahead have seen their resources re-deployed towards Intel-based development and some other nifty projects, all in the last 6 months to a year. Take this for what you will, but this guy has made some good calls in the past. I do give creedence to much of what he says.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by Randman

I'd say the PPC is EOL on the PB.

I tend to agree with Randman here, but Apple lately behaves strangely, so you never know.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by polendo

What is a 7448? is that a G4 chip?

This is the official MPC7448 page, with all the details.

Originally Posted by polendo

or why should /could it be on a powerbook?

Because it is the natural evolution of the G4 and a drop-in replacement for the 7447A we have today in the Powerbooks (meaning zero development effort from Apple).

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by rambo47

My understanding of what I heard a friend say (talked to someone who knows a guy whose sister dates somebody.......you get the idea) is that the engineers have been trying like hell to get the 7448 into a PowerBook but that Apple just doesn't want to commit the resources necessary before the transition to Intel chips.

Either your friend does not know what (s)he talks about, or you did not understand well. See my post above.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by rambo47

My understanding of what I heard a friend say (talked to someone who knows a guy whose sister dates somebody.......you get the idea) is that the engineers have been trying like hell to get the 7448 into a PowerBook but that Apple just doesn't want to commit the resources necessary before the transition to Intel chips.

That was reported on some rumor site (Appleinsider, maybe). But that is pretty old and I believe it was updated to reflect that Apple decided to pass on the 7448 and release a meager offering (which it did) as it continues to ready the Mactel PBs by mid-2006.

[hallvard]

As I'm about to buy a 15" Powerbook, being a bit unsure if I should wait even loner or just go for it, I've read this thread with great interest.

I was wondering.... if the 7448 is plug-in compatible with the 7447 that is currently used in the latest Powerbooks, would it be possible some time to just buy a 7448 chip and pop it in the Powerbook to replace the 7447?
Or is the processor soldered to the motherboard?

I'm not in the habit of buying new computers every second year. I'm not part of that trend and try to use whatever I have for as far as I can stretch its capacity (all my computers so far have been second hand ones and have served me well). Unfortunately my current Mac is just too old for video editing and audio, so I actually need a new machine, but I'm hoping it won't become outdated right away

[phoenix78]

hey hallvard.

i have a 17"pb. the one just before the newest (now current). it is by far beter than the 15 (i used to own one but now dont... and would not recomend a 15 to my mother!). If you 'really need' a new pc then go for a 17. it has the highest specs so you wil get the longest life from it. the extra screen width is a joy make no mistake! it isnt difficult to carry around.. not any more than a 15.

on the other hand you have the macintel comming that wil outdate the ppc so if you are worried about your pc being outdated too soon then you wil be dissapointed with not just a spec upgrade but a discontinuing(maybe!?) of platform architecture too. In that case i would buy a amd turion based pc if you are not fussed about operating systems. turion is 64 bit and will last you very long!!

i am not a mac finatic so that is why i recommended a non-apple product. a pc is a tool and if it does what you want it to then all is good... doesnt matter where it came from. ihave apple because it is a fantastic environment for software developers. I have a windows box for other stuff so i get the best of both worlds.

dont stress too much.. just get something that does what you need and wil do it for a long time to come.

cheers,
robM

[photoeditor]

hallvard -- the 7448 is pin-compatible with the 7447 but unfortunately these chips are soldered. So Apple doesn't need any new R&D effort to speak of to put the 7448 processor in the 15 or 17 inch Powerbooks (they've already taken care of that by designing the motherboard for faster RAM and divide-clock-by-four power management), but unfortunately the consumer can't actually change the chips.

[TWinbrook46636]

All indications are that these new 15" and 17" PowerBooks are indeed the 7448 ones we have been waiting for... except for the 7448 chip itself. In other words, they were designed for the 7448 chip but there was a significant delay causing Apple to use the 7447 instead. I think they even have the 200 MHz FSB but the use of the 7447 chip downclocks it to 167 MHz automatically. The DDR2 ram is downclocked manually from 533MHz to 333MHz in order to compensate for the higher power drain of the 7447 chip. Apple could drop in the 7448 chips when available and at that time the FSB would run at the full 200 MHz speed and they could then bump the DDR2 ram back up to 533MHz since there is no longer any reason to conserve power there.

It really depends on how soon the 7448 chips will be available and how far along the Intel PowerBooks are. I'm thinking we will see one last PowerPC revision to the PowerBooks early next year followed by the Intel PowerBooks about six months later. I also think the 12" PowerBooks might be bumped to 1.67 MHz at that time but still use the 7447 processor and existing logicboard.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by TWinbrook46636

All indications are that these new 15" and 17" PowerBooks are indeed the 7448 ones we have been waiting for... except for the 7448 chip itself. In other words, they were designed for the 7448 chip but there was a significant delay causing Apple to use the 7447 instead. I think they even have the 200 MHz FSB but the use of the 7447 chip downclocks it to 167 MHz automatically. The DDR2 ram is downclocked manually from 533MHz to 333MHz in order to compensate for the higher power drain of the 7447 chip. Apple could drop in the 7448 chips when available and at that time the FSB would run at the full 200 MHz speed and they could then bump the DDR2 ram back up to 533MHz since there is no longer any reason to conserve power there.

I think Apple is more likely to run the RAM at 400Mhz (200Mhz DDR for the anal retentive) with the FSB at 200Mhz. From what I've seen, it's better to match FSB/RAM than run the RAM marginally faster.

[Moon Potato]

I don't see Apple releasing any more powerbooks before the Intel 'books. If the 7448 didn't make the last update, it's not likely to be used at all - last week's update was timed perfectly to make June '06 match the regular powerbook update cycle, and it doesn't make sense for Apple to upgrade their assembly lines again for a product that's on its last legs.

[Randman]

If the 7448's could have come out, Apple would have released them. They're not going to release another revision a few months after one and a few months before the major Mactel change.

[iomatic]

I thought maybe the 7448 would show up next year, even after this revision (definitely not the G5), but I think Randman is right: sit eems unlikely, and their engineering efforts would be best put to the Intel project(s). New form-factor, and new features highly likely.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by iomatic

I thought maybe the 7448 would show up next year, even after this revision (definitely not the G5), but I think Randman is right: sit eems unlikely, and their engineering efforts would be best put to the Intel project(s). New form-factor, and new features highly likely.

I agree on a new form factor for the Intel laptops, but I doubt we'll see any new features. Apple's laptops are generally feature complete (DVI, Firewire, PCMCIA, audio, etc), they're just lagging on performance (CPU, GPU, RAM, screen, optical drive, etc).

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by mduell

I agree on a new form factor for the Intel laptops, but I doubt we'll see any new features. Apple's laptops are generally feature complete (DVI, Firewire, PCMCIA, audio, etc), they're just lagging on performance (CPU, GPU, RAM, screen, optical drive, etc).

Rest assured, Apple will find something to add that we could not now think of. Example from the past: illuminated keyboard.

[exactopposite]

IF intel powebooks are coming out by this summer, why would freescale 9it is freescale isn't it) ramp up production for a chip (the 7448) that will only be needed for 6-8 months. it seems to me that it would be a waste of their time.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by exactopposite

IF intel powebooks are coming out by this summer, why would freescale 9it is freescale isn't it) ramp up production for a chip (the 7448) that will only be needed for 6-8 months. it seems to me that it would be a waste of their time.

Apple isn't Freescale's only customer.
And judging from the amount of effort Freescale puts into chips for Apple, I'd say they're probably not even a big one. Freescale's chips are more used in the embedded market.

[TWinbrook46636]

Originally Posted by Moon Potato

I don't see Apple releasing any more powerbooks before the Intel 'books. If the 7448 didn't make the last update, it's not likely to be used at all - last week's update was timed perfectly to make June '06 match the regular powerbook update cycle, and it doesn't make sense for Apple to upgrade their assembly lines again for a product that's on its last legs.

The new PowerBooks are ready for the 7448 chip. It's pin compatible and all support for it is already in place. No upgrading of the assembly line is necessary. Probably the easiest update Apple could ever do. We are about a year away from the Intel PowerBooks.

[exactopposite]

Originally Posted by mduell

Apple isn't Freescale's only customer.
And judging from the amount of effort Freescale puts into chips for Apple, I'd say they're probably not even a big one. Freescale's chips are more used in the embedded market.

this still doesn't mean that the 7448 will make it's way into a powerbook. from what i read the 7448 is designed mainly for g4 applications and not so much embedded applications. with that, it would seem that they would need apple to use them to make the 7448 a viable product.


really all of this is speculation anyway. i think apple will have an intel powerbooks for sale sooner than the summer, and thus will have no need for the 7448. just my theory.

[photoeditor]

I would be stunned if it took Apple another year to produce Intel powerbooks. They say the first Yonah (i.e. the 2006 model dual-core or single-core Pentium M) systems will ship in the first quarter, and it sounds like the medium and higher powered chips are coming out before the ultra low voltage versions. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple chose to put dual core Yonah processors in the Powerbook and single core in the iBook, and if both were out by Easter. I think it's possible both could be out for MacWorld San Francisco, but that would require everything to go exactly right.

[photoeditor]

Forgot to add that I would think it would be the easiest thing in the world for Apple to start inserting the 7448 in the 15 and 17 inch Powerbooks just as soon as they get them; the motherboard and all other components are ready for it as of the October 19th update. I would be very surprised to see a 7448 12 inch Powerbook or iBook, though -- as that would indicate a new PPC motherboard for the 12 inch models.

[hallvard]

This thread is pretty interesting with all the different views, but what difference in real life (and in ordinary English, not tech-speak please) will a 7448 make compared to the existing, new Powerbook?

I've waited a long time (2 years) to buy a new computer, and although I don't have to have a new computer (my G3 upgraded PowerMac 9600 still works) I would really like to get started editing my home-videos, and for that I need a new machine, which is where the 15" Powerbook G4 comes in.

Will a possible "silent upgrade" of the Powerbook make such a huge difference that it's worth waiting a few months for it to possibly happen, or are we mostly talking longer battery life, and if so -are we talking considerably longer battery lives than the present Powerbook can do? Even though I want to buy a laptop I won't be using it much outside of my home, at least not in the near future as I see it.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by hallvard

This thread is pretty interesting with all the different views, but what difference in real life (and in ordinary English, not tech-speak please) will a 7448 make compared to the existing, new Powerbook?

I've waited a long time (2 years) to buy a new computer, and although I don't have to have a new computer (my G3 upgraded PowerMac 9600 still works) I would really like to get started editing my home-videos, and for that I need a new machine, which is where the 15" Powerbook G4 comes in.

Will a possible "silent upgrade" of the Powerbook make such a huge difference that it's worth waiting a few months for it to possibly happen, or are we mostly talking longer battery life, and if so -are we talking considerably longer battery lives than the present Powerbook can do? Even though I want to buy a laptop I won't be using it much outside of my home, at least not in the near future as I see it.

The real difference: not much. The battery life won't be much better. I don't think it's worth the wait.

[TWinbrook46636]

The speed increase from the 1MB L2 cache and 200 FSB alone would make the 7448 a welcome update.

[TWinbrook46636]

The speed increase from the 1MB L2 cache and 200 FSB alone would make the 7448 a welcome update.

[TWinbrook46636]

The speed increase from the 1MB L2 cache and 200 FSB alone would make the 7448 a welcome update.