[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

Design is where Steve Jobs stops. Bill Gates won by going for functionality and more features, and that's what consumers need, not some fancy 48 x 48 photorealistic icons.

Dude, I was responding to you calling NeXTSTEP ugly in comparison to Windows 3.1... refute what I said! You can't. Instead, you go non-sequiter on me.

Bill Gates couldn't innovate his way out of a paper bag. Without Jobs, Gates would still be in DOS land.

Originally Posted by james9490

I am pretty sure he also had a PC and did most of his development on the PC.

Hmmm... prove it.

[Millennium]

Amazing; you're still around.

Originally Posted by james9490

Interestingly, most novice users get lost with static menubar because they can't understand different application modes. It's easy on Windows: menus are attached to where they belong: each applications. Users are able to know which command belongs to what applications and so on.

Rather than "the application I'm currently in"? Get real. Computers can multitask, but people don't, and if you don't believe me then I challenge you to two simultaneous games of any FPS you care to name. The Mac menubar reflects this, by showing commands only for the app which the user is currently working with. This has been shown to be more usable, and we haven't even gotten into Fitts' Law yet.

Why do you think most Windows users maximize all their apps? It's to get the menubar in a single, consistent location, where it belongs.

Sure they do because most of them have already used Windows OS.

Actually, most Windows users never use the right mouse button. Many don't even know what it's for, except possibly as an extra button for games.

Have you even tried to teach them how to do all that? Do a favor and teach them how to click the right button so they don't have to put up with your Mac bigotry.

I don't understand. You're asking us to impose a new and confusing interface model on these people, and then saying this is more intuitive? If they don't feel comfortable with a two-button mouse, why force them to use it?

Not quite. The box doesn't say it's two-button mouse. It simply says "Mighty Mouse."

So what?

.NET framework. ASP development. ActiveX-based online game services. etc. etc.

In other words, all lock-in Microsoft implementations, not real standards. Big deal. I can't use Nisus Writer on Windows, but you don't see me complaining about that; there are plenty of other word processors which are just as powerful.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

You don't get it, do you. Try installing a video card on an iMac. You CAN'T!! On the other hand $500 consumer grade PCs can have extra video card. You could even slam in P4 3.3Ghz upgrade and 2GB RAM if you want to, not to mention an upgraded motherboard. Try that with an iMac. You are stuck with one hardware set.

You have the inate ability to pigeon-hole things so that the Mac looks weaker in your cases. Simple fact is, 99% of iMac owners don't give a flying rats ass about upgrading their video card. They are consumers. They want something easy to use and all in one. The iMac gave them that.

And adding RAM to an iMac is easy, IMHO. Open the back, there are the slots. Same with a PowerBook.

Now, if they are a more advanced user, and they have a G5, upgrading it is a snap. Nothing compares, IMHO to the G4 cases. I loved those things. Flop it open, slam in the new card, close it, restart. Boom, it's running.

Oh, notice how I didn't say anything about safe mode or drivers....

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by james9490

No chance buddy. I've got my trusty Norton Anti-Virus running at full-speed, and DriveImage is available at my fingertip in case of unexpected disaster. Try that with your Mac...

Why on earth would I want to? You see, unlike with PCs, where having your 'trusty' Norton Anti-Virus running at full speed (and usurping system resources. (*1)) is an absolute necessity for even minimal safety, it is not necessary on a Mac. What exactly would be the point of having Norton (or any similar anti-virus/protection application) running on a Mac? Or rather, what would be the necessity? I know that certain people actually do like to have anti-virus programs running on their Macs, on the off chance that they might otherwise unwittingly send on a worm/virus/Trojan (I'm not big on nomenclature) on to a PC on a local network. But that's about the only reason.

I am becoming really tired of people like you, coming to people's thread and calling people trolls while you don't even have any guts to discuss seriously.

Well, that's what you get for having a history that consists solely of inflammatory posts, and providing no valid points or arguments yourself.

Let me assure you that we, as a forum [I feel I can speak on behalf of the majority here, seeing as so many people have posted in the two threads you've started, to much the same effect], are also becoming really tired of people like you, coming to a Mac forum and writing no posts containing anything but trite, often untrue, and always inconstructive criticism to pretty much everything about Macs, and complaints about how other people are offending you (*2), when you don't even have the guts to discuss the topic with backed-up claims or any kind of credibility.







*1 On my old PC, the first two times I tried installing Norton, it completely f*cked up the computer beyond recognition [i.e. wouldn't even start up], so I had to re-install Windows; third time it worked, but was always hogging CPU, hardly ever going under 10-15% usage. I had it installed for about a week, then I got rid of it and used Avast!, AdAware, and SpyBot instead. Free, and so much better for my needs.

*2 While I do see some of the posts made about you as offensive (to you, not to me; I have to admit I quite agree with them), they are personal opinions expressed as a result of your posting history, nothing more. Your own gerontophobic views that you expressed in the beginning of this thread, however, I find highly offensive, because they are signs of a whole set of attitudes towards a group of people, not a personal opinion about a single person.








This thread stopped being funny about three or four pages ago; could someone please lock it?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

I am pretty sure he [Tim Berners-Lee] also had a PC and did most of his development on the PC.

The first PC browsers don't seem to have started appearing until 1993; a full three years after the original WorldWideWeb.app, and that browser was not developed by Tim Berners-Lee. Before then, you could telnet into a NeXT box and run the text-mode browser from there, but that was it.

Get over yourself, James. You can go pretend that Microsoft is a decent company with decent products if you really want to, but lying about other developers doesn't cut it around here.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

You need to realize, though, that Windows Media 9 DRM doesn't work on the Mac, and it is the de-facto standard for multimedia contents. How are you going to deal with that one?

I'd think that something used by 82% of ALL downloaded music in the United States, and 80% in the UK (the two world's largest music markets) would constitute a DE-FACTO standard.

At least, that's what "de facto" means.

Originally Posted by james9490

I am pretty sure [Tim Berners-Lee] also had a PC and did most of his development on the PC.

None of the World Wide Web development done by Berners-Lee at CERN was done on Windows.

Serious networking at the time was limited to Unix machines.

Originally Posted by james9490

No chance buddy. I've got my trusty Norton Anti-Virus running at full-speed, and DriveImage is available at my fingertip in case of unexpected disaster. Try that with your Mac...

Ah, Norton Anti-Virus...I remember that.

I used to run it myself...until about 2000 or so.

Last time any virus checker flagged anything was in 1993 - I think. It's been a long time.

And I've been on the interweb since, um 1994 or 1995.

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by james9490

Design is where Steve Jobs stops. Bill Gates won by going for functionality and more features, and that's what consumers need, not some fancy 48 x 48 photorealistic icons.

"Functionality" that has been in OS X since...when...the Public Beta? 10.0? 10.1?

Originally Posted by james9490

Have you seen his recent article? He actually says that Vista will surpass OS X Tiger.

Nice try, but sorry, Vista will eat Tiger's tail.

Key word: will. And that's if Vista gets out the door by the end of 2006, or whenever it's supposed to ship. Leopard will be out by then. If Windows is so good, why is Billy Boy trying desperately to catch up feature-by-feature of what is already in Tiger?

[RAILhead]

[Mediaman_12]

Originally Posted by james9490

You don't get it, do you. Try installing a video card on an iMac. You CAN'T!! On the other hand $500 consumer grade PCs can have extra video card. You could even slam in P4 3.3Ghz upgrade and 2GB RAM if you want to, not to mention an upgraded motherboard. Try that with an iMac. You are stuck with one hardware set.

9 out of 10 times you decide to upgrade most things on a 'cheapo' PC the industry has moved on and will require an upgrade in both the motherboard and power-supply. So you end up with a old case containing 90% new components. With the iMac you could have sold the old one on eBay and spent a similar amount of 'new' money on a totally new computer.

You talk about people using Windows 'knowing' about right clicking. With all the 'regular' Windows users (just normal office users) I have had to show anything, I have always had great difficulty in getting them to do a right click on ANYTHING.

[effgee]

[besson3c]

Guys,

James has made some reasonable claims about the MM.

He is not terribly equipped to make arguments against the Mac as a whole, and is certainly doing it in the wrong place. It should be no surprise, James, that people will have knee-jerk reactions and consider you a troll and whatnot considering where you are posting. Just what are you expecting here? For all of us to say: "wow, he's right. The Mac really is stupid, I'm switching to Windows!"

Where a lot of breakdown occurs in these sorts of arguments is the notion of hardware value vs. software value. Many Mac users don't care that they can't easily slap a new video card into their machines, because the hardware isn't the computer - the software is. James obviously doesn't see the point in paying a premium for OS X or Apple's hardware designs since he can be a "value shopper" and buy/build a machine for $300. They must be directly comparable, I mean a computer is a computer, right? $300 for a computer must be a pretty sweet deal!

I don't have anything more to add, except that James is clearly over his head when he talks about ASP and .NET being superior. Whatever... James, your technical knowledge really lacks. Have you done any programming yourself, or are you just reciting Microsoft talking points?

James, you aren't going to "convert" us here with your limited knowledge of computers. Mac guys, you aren't going to change James.

I say we just let this thread die and ignore him if he insists on starting up another one.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by analogika

I am going to loudly address this ONE LAST TIME:

1) HOW IS THE MIGHTY MOUSE BAD FOR NOVICE USERS?


If your answer to 1) is again "hidden interface", then

2) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A DISABLED SECOND BUTTON *NOT* PROVIDING ACCESS TO AN UNNECESSARY (BY DESIGN) HIDDEN INTERFACE FEATURE IS "BAD INTERFACE.


3) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW CONTEXTUAL MENUS ARE *NOT* HIDDEN INTERFACE.


Three simple questions.


Answer them.

lather, rinse, repeat.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

You don't get it, do you. Try installing a video card on an iMac. You CAN'T!!

So what? Even among Windows users, most people (yes, I can play the "most people" game too) never bother to install anything extra inside their computer whatsoever. If you don't, then that's fine: don't buy an iMac.

On the other hand $500 consumer grade PCs can have extra video card.

Good for them. Do you buy $500 "consumer-grade" PCs? No doubt you use equipment similar to that which comes with a $500 "consumer-grade" PC, but I very much you'd want to use the kind of hard drive that comes with such a machine, nor the kind of processor, nor the kind of video card, nor anything else. You want a better machine than that, and so your point is pretty much moot. You're comparing a machine you wouldn't ever want to be caught dead using with an iMac; dare I call this an Apples-to-Oranges comparison?

You could even slam in P4 3.3Ghz upgrade and 2GB RAM if you want to, not to mention an upgraded motherboard. Try that with an iMac. You are stuck with one hardware set.

And again, so what? For most people, that's enough. Personally, I use a PMG5, but I'm not the sort of person who'd be content with an iMac either.

[nayr x]

Look, all of you are obviously overlooking the core issues! If we would just look at logically with this: that James is 100% correct!!! and there is nothing left to be dabate.

Quite simply, james was dead on with his facts: the user interface is a BAD, and is WRONF for the simple reasons that the GOLDEN RULE of human design interface was totyally violated by apple, because they dont care! They just dont.

Argue all you want about why you think you are right, but the fact will remain that the mouses is a dumb and a bad idea, and goes to show that apple users are not as good as window users bacuse they let apple do these things. I think we need more Jameses in the wold letting us know when we should be outraged and now is the time!

consider the facts, and use logic for once people:

1) Apple made a terrible product. Not just because Windows is easier and more safer, and becuase adults AND children with different needs cant find the buttons. How dumb is that?!?

2) james knows what he is talking about! he is in IT and know these things, so we should all voice our concerns to apple beacuse we should not stand for this thing. Obviously to be in IT you need to use computers, so we should take what he says more to heart.

3) The buttons wont let you use the contextual menue even if you dont need to, so people will be confused and novices and our grandma will be frustrated. Is that any way to run a company? I think apple shoyuld apologize to these groups publicly becayuse they obviously dont care about them at all.

3) You people on this board are unnecessarily natsy and rude. I mean come on! James is only hare to make opinions so we can learn them, that's no reason to get mean. Calling people names and being childish is no way to conduct a serious debate so all of you stop being f**Cking A-hole jerk bags and focus on the issues. Or do you not have the balls to do that you bunch of apple-loving poopbags?!

Im with you james. We will educate the world.

:edit: hey james, by the way, my mom want me to tell you to tell your mom that we are good for our playdate on thursday! hooray!

[analogika]

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by nayr x

Look, all of you are obviously overlooking the core issues! If we would just look at logically with this: that James is 100% correct!!! and there is nothing left to be dabate.

Core issues??? I thought we were talking about the Mighty Mouse, not OS X vs. Windows.

Quite simply, james was dead on with his facts: the user interface is a BAD, and is WRONF for the simple reasons that the GOLDEN RULE of human design interface was totyally violated by apple, because they dont care! They just dont.

Such as?

Argue all you want about why you think you are right, but the fact will remain that the mouses is a dumb and a bad idea, and goes to show that apple users are not as good as window users bacuse they let apple do these things. I think we need more Jameses in the wold letting us know when we should be outraged and now is the time!

Outraged over what? The fact that by default the MM is the same as Apple's one-button mouse offerings?

consider the facts, and use logic for once people:

1) Apple made a terrible product. Not just because Windows is easier and more safe, but becuase adults AND children with different needs cant find the buttons. How dumb is that?!?

Windows is easier and safer to use??? R..i..g..h..t. Back to the mouse issue, you do realize that it's a 1-button by default, right?

2) james knows what he is talking about! he is in IT and know these things, so we should all voice our concerns to apple beacuse we should not stand for this thing. Obviously to be in IT you need to use computers, so we should take what he says more to heart.

Pure and utter BS.

3) The buttons wont let you use the contextual menue if you dont need to, so people will be confused and novices and our grandma will be frustrated. Is that any way to run a company? I think apple shoyuld apologize to these groups publicly becayuse they obviously dont care about them at all.

Please explain to the rest of us why contextual menus are so necessary when there are KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS. Besides, is it that hard to hold down the control key while clicking? Again, what part of activating those features do you not understand?

Does not knowing how to use the mouse constitute doom and gloom for Apple as a whole? By your logic you should go join the likes of Thurrott and Endrie.

3) You people on this board are unnecessarily natsy and rude. I mean come on! James is only hare to make opinions so we can learn them, that's no reason to get mean. Calling people names and being childish is no way to conduct a serious debate so all of you stop being f**Cking A-hole jerk bags and focus on the issues. Or do you not have the balls to do that you bunch of apple-loving poopbags?!

He is here to troll.

Im with you james. We will educate the world.

Know what you're talking about first.

[MaxPower2k3]

again

[budster101]

Uhm. Zero viruses for OS X. ZERO. Nitwit.
I don't need Norton Antivirus or Firewall. They suck anyway...

[budster101]

dp.

[loki74]

You still don't see my point. You have to *know* which finger to press without any sort of visual cues on MM. With other two-button mice, right button is VISIBLE, and therefore you would notice before having to learn it.

Yeah... any user trying to use the right button already knows its functionality and which finger to use to get the extrea functionality.

That's why I build my own machine from scratch. "Lean and Mean" is my slogan. I have a solution for your 3-D project: BUILD YOUR OWN MACHINE with 2GB RAM and Serial ATA drives. That should speed up rendering.

It's not about speed. It's about stability. If I wanted speed I would get a bunch of rack serveres tied together by etiher Xgrid (on Mac) or OracleGRID (PC). As for "lean and mean" um, my PM has 2.5GB RAM and SATA drives. I will concede that I need a new graphics card, however, but Software is more important right now.

Windows Registry by itself actually is a good idea because it centralize all the system resources and configuration, and it allows users to configure the system exactly the way they want. Microsoft knew that Windows 3.1 style system management wouldn't be able to handle all the new system resource management features without first centralizing everything. With the Registry schema there is only one place to look up for everything.

Put all your eggs in one basket, right?

You need to realize, though, that Windows Media 9 DRM doesn't work on the Mac, and it is the de-facto standard for multimedia contents. How are you going to deal with that one?

Um, if its a media contest I'll just render to QT and use a conversion tool. If I need to I'll transfer to my PC. No big deal.

Unfortunately for Apple, media/publishing houses around the country have been busy migrating everything to Windows-based workflow. After all, all their apps run on Windows: Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. etc.

Which all still run on Mac.

So much better for what? Bragging rights?

The ability to rapidly and efficiently create a wide variety of media, from 3D to 2D to Web. The reason I can do this so easily on my Mac compared to my PC is that the multitasking ability of the MacOS is far superior in my experience. Also, everything is much more efficient. I don't know how else to explain it. I just get things done faster. On top of that, I'm not being constantly nagged by my computer.

See, my philosophy is that a computer is a tool. It should let me do what I want to do when I want to do it. It should not try to do things for me, unless I ask it to. It should not advise me on how to use it. Constantly being nagged by messages and taskbar baloons does not help this.

Well, then, again, I have to ask you this: If Final Cut Pro and other "pro-apps" are so easy to use, why there are so many "how-to" books out there for those apps? It's not easy to learn so long as you have to read a 1,000 page manual just to learn how to do everything.

I believe I said they are easy to start using... I'm by no means an FCP expert. But the basic paradigm of the inteded workflow is apparent with just a little exploring.

Not necessary. Thanks. Yes, I know what Fitt's Law is. If you don't know, just google the word and you will find the answer.

I know what's Fitt's Law is. I was the second one to bring it up in here, after you did not respond to the first time it was brought up. I guess you concede then, on OSX's greater consideration to this law?

[effgee]

Originally Posted by Millenium

So what? Even among Windows users, most people (yes, I can play the "most people" game too) never bother to install anything extra inside their computer whatsoever. ...

HA!!

That's what you think ... ever since James94whatever mentioned Grandmas I'm actually somewhat inclined to agree with him. Take my Grannie, for example:

Not only would she never be able to to comprehend the mysteries of the MM's hidden interface, she also suffers from severe arthritis, which makes it impossible for her to use her pinkie to operate that hidden second mouse button.

OTH, she is extremely happy with her Windows box - following the completely painless installation and configuration of Zone Alarm, Norton Anti-Virus, Spybot Search & Destroy, Ad-Aware, Spyware Blaster and HijackThis, she recently set up her own web server using IIS and is now happily developing database-driven web sites using nothing but Word, FrontPage and Access.

And wait until I tell you what she's done with her 2-year old eMachines box - over the last couple of months, she:

1. Swapped out the (socket 478) 2.4GHz Celeron and stuck in a brand-spanking new (socket 775) dual-core, 64bit-capable, 3.4 GHZ Pentium 4 which, thanks to an elaborate custom-built liquid nitrogen cooling system, runs reliably at a speed of 4.4GHz - piece of cake.
2. Soldered two PCIe slots onto the motherboard and has now replaced that aging Radeon 9200 with two nVidia 7800GTX cards that are running in a mind-boggling SLI configuration.
3. Replaced the ATA headers with more recent SATA2 headers to accommodate her new 10,000rpm Raptors, which she runs in a striped RAID configuration, of course.
4. Upgraded the 10base-T Ethernet chip (which was getting a bit long in the tooth) to a lighning fast dual-port Gigabit connection - that thing flies!
5. Added two more eMachines power supplies to the box to provide the monster she calls a computer with generous amounts of power. You should really see the custom fans she added to those power supplies - they come with blue LEDs and look great in the dark!

And if you ever saw the results of her mad case-modding skills, you'd keel over in amazement - not only did she dremel the living hell out of that case, the side-panels now feature a profile of her Dachshound "Waldo", the mittens she knitted for the satellites of her Logitech 7.1 surround sound system are certain to bring tears of joy to your eyes.

What can I say? My Grannie's little more than your average computer user - and not for nothing have the members of her local "l33t modder's association" (senior section, mind you) given her eMachines box the gold medal for "most creative mod" two years in a row.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the inevitable realization - James94whatever is right.

Mea culpa. You were spot on, James ...

[loki74]

Not only would she never be able to to comprehend the mysteries of the MM's hidden interface, she also suffers from severe arthritis, which makes it impossible for her to use her pinkie to operate that hidden second mouse button.

I use the middle finger for the right and index for the left... who puts all 5 fingers on the mouse??

OTH, she is extremely happy with her Windows box - following the completely painless installation and configuration of Zone Alarm, Norton Anti-Virus, Spybot Search & Destroy, Ad-Aware, Spyware Blaster and HijackThis,

which after the painless installs, proceed to rape the system for its resources, and of course let us not forget the incessant nagging to update. Whew.. I remember clicking "remid me later I'm doing way more important sh!t" and constantly having apps randomly steal focus... gee wiz.

And if you ever saw the results of her mad case-modding skills, you'd keel over in amazement - not only did she dremel the living hell out of that case, the side-panels now feature a profile of her Dachshound "Waldo", the mittens she knitted for the satellites of her Logitech 7.1 surround sound system are certain to bring tears of joy to your eyes.

All with sever arthritis?

What can I say? My Grannie's little more than your average computer user - and not for nothing have the members of her local "l33t modder's association" (senior section, mind you) given her eMachines box the gold medal for "most creative mod" two years in a row.

obviously not among the "most people" Mellinium was referring to...

The more I think about it, the more I come to the inevitable realization - James94whatever is right.

Mea culpa. You were spot on, James ...

hrmmm.....

... um, throughout this entire thing, you are being sarcastic... ...right?

[effgee]

Originally Posted by loki74

... um, throughout this entire thing, you are being sarcastic... ...right?

Uhhhmmm ... **crossesfingersbehindback** nope. I am dead serious.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by effgee

Uhhhmmm ... **crossesfingersbehindback** nope. I am dead serious.

yeah, I was replying and thinking "he can't be serious!" and then it occurred to me "well, idiot, maybe he's not!!"

[analogika]

btw, nayr x up above was sarcasm too...just in case anybody else falls in step with alphasubzero...

[effgee]

Originally Posted by analogika

... just in case anybody else falls in step with alphasubzero ...

[alphasubzero949]

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Mediaman_12

9 out of 10 times you decide to upgrade most things on a 'cheapo' PC the industry has moved on and will require an upgrade in both the motherboard and power-supply. So you end up with a old case containing 90% new components. With the iMac you could have sold the old one on eBay and spent a similar amount of 'new' money on a totally new computer.

What you don't realize, though, is that you can perform "gradual upgrade" with consumer grade PCs. Check this out:

1) iMac
You buy it, and it becomes obsolete the moment you buy it. 6 months later there is a new CPU chip and you want to upgrade the machine with it, but you are stuck with it because it's impossible to install a new CPU chip on iMac's motherboard. You are stuck until you save up enough money to buy a new one. Since there is no way of keeping up with the latest and the greatest unless you have so much cash to burn, you are forever stuck with obsolete machine.

2) PC
You buy it, and it becomes obsolete the moment you buy it. 6 months later there is a new CPU from both Intel and AMD, and you get to choose which one you prefer depending on your needs. You do a search in the PriceWatch web site to get a super-discount deal for those new chips, spend the absolute minimum, install it on an existing motherboard and viola! Your PC keeps up with the latest and the greatest.

You keep doing that, spend a little at a time, and your consumer-grade PC will eventually be transformed into a high-end workstation. And all this without having to spend a lot of cash up front.

How can you beat that with your Mac?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by james9490

What you don't realize, though, is that you can perform "gradual upgrade" with consumer grade PCs. Check this out:

1) iMac
You buy it, and it becomes obsolete the moment you buy it. 6 months later there is a new CPU chip and you want to upgrade the machine with it, but you are stuck with it because it's impossible to install a new CPU chip on iMac's motherboard. You are stuck until you save up enough money to buy a new one. Since there is no way of keeping up with the latest and the greatest unless you have so much cash to burn, you are forever stuck with obsolete machine.

2) PC
You buy it, and it becomes obsolete the moment you buy it. 6 months later there is a new CPU from both Intel and AMD, and you get to choose which one you prefer depending on your needs. You do a search in the PriceWatch web site to get a super-discount deal for those new chips, spend the absolute minimum, install it on an existing motherboard and viola! Your PC keeps up with the latest and the greatest.

You keep doing that, spend a little at a time, and your consumer-grade PC will eventually be transformed into a high-end workstation. And all this without having to spend a lot of cash up front.

How can you beat that with your Mac?

James, how can you, on one hand, argue about the MM not being Grandma-proof (important issues HCI experts wrestle with, no sarcasm intended), yet go on about the Mac not being upgradable. Do you think Grandma is going to want to upgrade her iMac?

A *very* small percentage of people upgrade their towers (notice how I didn't say "laptop"? In the case of laptops, I'd think that a *microscopic* percentage of people upgrade their laptops). This is just not a significant population to be concerned with.

You, as an HCI expert, should understand Apple's target audience, and embrace the fact that good design involves being empathetic to this audience.

If you really want to upgrade your machine, you are probably an expert user. Apple makes a machine for this population: their PowerMac G5 towers.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't have anything more to add, except that James is clearly over his head when he talks about ASP and .NET being superior. Whatever... James, your technical knowledge really lacks. Have you done any programming yourself, or are you just reciting Microsoft talking points?

Why do you think other technologies are better than ASP and .NET? Please explain. I guess you are referring to something like PHP. Granted, PHP is widely used in the web development market, but when it comes to serious corporate grade computing ASP is the true winner. Just look through major corporate sites, and you will find more ASP than PHP. Open source, to them, is a major security threat because it is "open." Corporations can't afford such major risk.

Originally Posted by besson3c

James, you aren't going to "convert" us here with your limited knowledge of computers. Mac guys, you aren't going to change James.

I say we just let this thread die and ignore him if he insists on starting up another one.

I don't expect that many people here will change for better, but the truth needs to be heard.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

lather, rinse, repeat.

I won't, since I've already answered at least twice yet you refuse to listen until I say what you want to hear.

[budster101]

You went from Useability Expert, to a typical PC/Windows troll.

What is so funny is, this thread is still not locked and you still return to be punished again and again.
Wait, isn't that the definition of your average Windows user? Gluttons for punishment.

My PowerBook Rev. "A" 17" is over 2 years old and it's just as snappy as the day I bought it. Reliable, and I don't even have to shut it down. Ever.

2 years 4 months and counting.
It's paid for itself twice over, so I'm not concerned about an upgrade any time soon. Unless I sell it and make some good money because it retains far more value than your "generic"; "upgradeable" PC... if you have to upgrade it every 6 months, then how much money have you spent?

PC, $1,500 (Average) x 4 (Every 6 months) $6,000
PB, $2,300 (When I bought mine) 2 years... no upgrades necessary here, and I do large format print and web design. I just upgrade my OS which has cost me $129 in TWO YEARS...

No crashes.
No viruses.
No spyware.
No adware.
No malware.
No trojans.
No worms.
No popup ads.

None of that for me, and I don't have Norton telling me to aprove anything... every 2 minutes.

I enjoy working on my computer whereas I hated working on my WIndows Computer.
My computer is NOT obsolete... it's still an asset! One that again, retains a great deal of value so if I decided to trade up, I can.

Enjoy your Windows PC, if it doesn't break in the next few months. I hope you can work on it yourself, or bought the extended warranty.

Hey, one more thing.

When is Longhorn/Vista coming out? When they finish copying OS X Tiger? By then Leopard will be out...

Enjoy your crow.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by james9490

Why do you think other technologies are better than ASP and .NET? Please explain. I guess you are referring to something like PHP. Granted, PHP is widely used in the web development market, but when it comes to serious corporate grade computing ASP is the true winner. Just look through major corporate sites, and you will find more ASP than PHP. Open source, to them, is a major security threat because it is "open." Corporations can't afford such major risk.





I don't expect that many people here will change for better, but the truth needs to be heard.

James, do you really want me to respond to this? If I did, would it make a difference? Would it change your mind? You sound pretty convinced of yourself. Is there anything in the world I could say that would change your mind?

[budster101]

Originally Posted by james9490

Why do you think other technologies are better than ASP and .NET? Please explain. I guess you are referring to something like PHP. Granted, PHP is widely used in the web development market, but when it comes to serious corporate grade computing ASP is the true winner. Just look through major corporate sites, and you will find more ASP than PHP. Open source, to them, is a major security threat because it is "open." Corporations can't afford such major risk.

I don't expect that many people here will change for better, but the truth needs to be heard.

Yeah, your average user really cares about ASP and .NET
They don't even know what an Active Server Page is...

ASP is the winner? Ha. Wrong.

More doesn't mean it's better... just look at all the Windows users out there...

Why doesn't IE comply with W3C standards? Hmm?

I guess the FBI is wrong by using Macs then eh? WIndows is not secure.

[besson3c]

Guys, James is not looking for a discussion where he reevaluates his opinions. He's set. Leave him alone, you're just wasting your time.

I know it may sound like I'm jumping the gun in light of my last post, but it just occurred to me that there have already been several reasonable points made in this lengthy thread. If he was interested in reevaluating his positions, we would know this by now.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Millennium

So what? Even among Windows users, most people (yes, I can play the "most people" game too) never bother to install anything extra inside their computer whatsoever. If you don't, then that's fine: don't buy an iMac.

Me not buying an iMac is not enough. The more computer users running "alternative OS" the worse, because it means having to deal with several different conflicting standards. We have limited resources. It would be the best if we have one major standard that works for everyone, and that should be Windows PC at this point.

Originally Posted by Millennium

Good for them. Do you buy $500 "consumer-grade" PCs? No doubt you use equipment similar to that which comes with a $500 "consumer-grade" PC, but I very much you'd want to use the kind of hard drive that comes with such a machine, nor the kind of processor, nor the kind of video card, nor anything else. You want a better machine than that, and so your point is pretty much moot. You're comparing a machine you wouldn't ever want to be caught dead using with an iMac; dare I call this an Apples-to-Oranges comparison?

Not necessarily, because some people need higher grade machine yet they can't always afford the highest-priced machine. And that's where PC shines: You can choose to downgrade only the part(s) don't matter to your immediate needs. For example, you could have the highest performance CPU, RAM and a hard drive and then choose to just have a cheap DVD-ROM, a cheap Ethernet card and no sound to save money if you are a 3-D artist and the primary function of your PC is to render graphics. You don't need a high performance DVD burner for rendering. With the Mac, you are stuck with just a few configuration combinations. You are stuck.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

Yeah, your average user really cares about ASP and .NET
They don't even know what an Active Server Page is...

ASP is the winner? Ha. Wrong.

More doesn't mean it's better... just look at all the Windows users out there...

Why doesn't IE comply with W3C standards? Hmm?

I guess the FBI is wrong by using Macs then eh? WIndows is not secure.

This is the ineffective "Michael Moore" style of arguing (i.e. "let me bludgeon you with facts as I see them until you accept my viewpoint").

I know you are perfectly capable of defending these claims, and building on these to put together a reasonable argument. The problem is, James does not want to have a conversation where these is discourse about these ideas. He just wants to tell us how it is (and look like a fool doing so, being factually incorrect in a number of cases).

[james9490]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Guys, James is not looking for a discussion where he reevaluates his opinions. He's set. Leave him alone, you're just wasting your time.

I know it may sound like I'm jumping the gun in light of my last post, but it just occurred to me that there have already been several reasonable points made in this lengthy thread. If he was interested in reevaluating his positions, we would know this by now.

Didn't you catch that I did mention there have been a few people I agree with regarding Mighty Mouse user interface issue, and I've always responded to most counter-posts in this thread. Why would I waste my time talking about this if I didn't think I need to get the truth out and it needs to be heard?

You are just ditching the whole discussion because you are too afraid to discuss Mighty Mouse problem. Mac market share is small, and you are (like other Mac users) afraid of offending anyone who recommends it. Typical....

[budster101]

Funny. I don't feel stuck... Can't you just go play in a PC forum? Why the f.uck are you here?

You want to talk about standards?
Plug any usb device into a Mac, 9/10 times it will just work.
Plug the same one into a PC... don't forget to REBOOT... lol.

IE /= W3C

WIndows just sucks though, why would I want to put myself through that hell again?

You confuse price for value... An expensive PC/Windows computer is still crap because it is running WINDOWS.

You can BUILD TO ORDER on Apple's web site you know. You don't have to have a DVD burner at all...

In the stores they have packages that accomodate most people who are going to use a Mac in varied settings. You really don't have any clue do you?

You are stuck.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by besson3c

This is the ineffective "Michael Moore" style of arguing (i.e. "let me bludgeon you with facts as I see them until you accept my viewpoint").

I know you are perfectly capable of defending these claims, and building on these to put together a reasonable argument. The problem is, James does not want to have a conversation where these is discourse about these ideas. He just wants to tell us how it is (and look like a fool doing so, being factually incorrect in a number of cases).

If you think I am incorrect in some facts I provided, you need to back your claim, too. Just telling people that I am unreasonable and ignore me is NOT an effective way to defend your claim.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by james9490

Didn't you catch that I did mention there have been a few people I agree with regarding Mighty Mouse user interface issue, and I've always responded to most counter-posts in this thread. Why would I waste my time talking about this if I didn't think I need to get the truth out and it needs to be heard?

Why would I waste *my* time arguing with somebody as arrogant as to think that he needs to "get the truth out that needs to be heard"? You clearly are not here to have a discussion, but rather to just tell us how it is. Your mind is made up.

You are just ditching the whole discussion because you are too afraid to discuss Mighty Mouse problem. Mac market share is small, and you are (like other Mac users) afraid of offending anyone who recommends it. Typical....

This is pretty much the school yard bully "why are you being mature and walking away? Come back here and fight me!!". Your problem is, I don't have to. It really wouldn't be a good use of my time now, would it?

I need to get the truth out to everybody else reading this thread though: responding to James is a WASTE OF TIME. Don't do it!

[james9490]

Originally Posted by besson3c

James, do you really want me to respond to this? If I did, would it make a difference? Would it change your mind? You sound pretty convinced of yourself. Is there anything in the world I could say that would change your mind?

I guess my question is whether you are really knowledgeable enough to discuss ASP/.NET while you claim to be a "Net Musician." Most musicians don't know anything about ASP or .NET. If you happen to be one of those rare persons who can do both art and technology, good for you. But I am highly doubtful that you are bluffing.

[budster101]

Going to respond to anything I've posted James?
Guess not. Not much of an expert are you?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by james9490

If you think I am incorrect in some facts I provided, you need to back your claim, too. Just telling people that I am unreasonable and ignore me is NOT an effective way to defend your claim.

Give me one reason why backing up my claim would be a good use of my time?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by james9490

I guess my question is whether you are really knowledgeable enough to discuss ASP/.NET while you claim to be a "Net Musician." Most musicians don't know anything about ASP or .NET. If you happen to be one of those rare persons who can do both art and technology, good for you. But I am highly doubtful that you are bluffing.

What does it matter how knowledgeable I am with ASP or .NET? Does it really make a difference?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by james9490

You are just ditching the whole discussion because you are too afraid to discuss Mighty Mouse problem. Mac market share is small, and you are (like other Mac users) afraid of offending anyone who recommends it. Typical....

This from the guy who ignored everything I said, ignored my inquiries as to why those questions were ignored, and kept ignoring me until I finally called him on his trolling on page 7?

You have yet to even prove a likelihood that Mighty Mouse will be made standard gear, which is a necessary foundation for all of your arguments that everybody needs to be able to use it rather than just those who specifically choose to purchase it. (Why? I guess because proving that doesn't offer enough opportunity to fellate Bill Gates or insult Mac users, which seem to be your primary goals in this thread.)

You also have yet to give us any reason to believe your claim of being "a usability expert." Of course, maybe you've given up on that one after all the holes people have punched in your examples of Microsoft's awesome usability ("Just install and configure a crapload of third-party software and you'll probably not get infected — that's way simpler than using a mouse!").

[budster101]

I'm enjoying my PowerBook right now... hello anyone there? Maybe he crashed...and had to reboot.
We'll wait.

Still waiting for him to answer my questions.

At least answer the IE /= W3C standards...

[budster101]

What about WMA? 163701 5/19/05, 10:38 am EDT
iTunes has one fatal flaw, and it is the lack of native WMA support. Motorola will be under tremendous amount of pressure to support WMA because vast majority of digital music listeners will go for phones that support at least both MP3 and WMA. It will be a matter of time before Motorola is forced out of the current contract because of high WMA demand, and it will be a huge blow to Apple unless they support WMA and let Motorola be in charge of their file format choice.
Comment posted by: james9490

This from the iPodNN page.

Uhm did you see our new phone James? Ain't it great? No WMA support either. Doesn't that just burn you up?



Want to see more of it?

Right, you keep that attitude ok? While my stock goes up and up.

BTW: What are the market percentages when it comes to portable music players and music download companies? I've lost track...

Apple has what, 80 percent of the download marketplace, and 75 percent of the MP3 players?

Hello? Did you have to restart your computer?

[Chris O'Brien]

Originally Posted by james9490

I guess my question is whether you are really knowledgeable enough to discuss ASP/.NET while you claim to be a "Net Musician." Most musicians don't know anything about ASP or .NET. If you happen to be one of those rare persons who can do both art and technology, good for you. But I am highly doubtful that you are bluffing.

There are many of us on these boards who are far more knowledgeable than yourself about 'technology'. I have had the misfortune to work with ASP and .NET and we can have a serious discourse about the advantages and disadvantages if you wish. Some of it comes down to personal preference, I suppose. But why pay Microsoft for the privilege to write/run a web site when you can use a LAMP box for free? Now, if you really want to use .NET on something other than Windows, have a look a Mono.

You are not spreading 'the truth', just your perceived truth. You appear to be under the impression that we've all been brainwashed into using Macs. I'd wager, that for the most part, we moved over to the Mac because of Windows' insufficiencies. It's unfortunate that I have to use Windows as often as I do - it really is rubbish. Honestly. It's annoying to use. I dare say there's nothing you can teach me about Windows, and it's through informed choice that I don't use it unless forced to.

By the way, there is a standard for computers. It's not Windows, it's POSIX.

And all this stuff about building computers: so what? How does that have anything to do with Windows? I build PCs all the time - it's something I enjoy doing. I run Linux or a BSD variant on them, and I'm utterly confused as to why you don't. You build your computers for cheapness and configurability (and use it as something against Apple because they don't quite provide that level of choice), yet your are prepared to just slap on an OS and software that is unconfigurable and costs? Mate, make your mind up. You're one step away from being a true geek. Go on, do it, take the plunge. Compile Linux choosing just the things you want in the same way you do with your computers, then I reckon you'll have a leg to stand on. (It's not hard, I do it all the time).

The thing is, I use my Mac for serious work and every day use, and tend to just use the other machines as routers, servers or play machines, or to test how things I write work on other OSs.

So yet another pointer that you are just a Windows fanboy who isn't going to listen to reason because it would break your heart to do so. Also, (now forgive me if I'm wrong) you building your computers for so cheap would imply that your putting on a cracked version of Windows. If you love it so much, why don't you reimburse Microsoft for its efforts?

Bah, I didn't mean to write that much :/

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

Me not buying an iMac is not enough. The more computer users running "alternative OS" the worse, because it means having to deal with several different conflicting standards.

No, no it doesn't. Standards are protocols, not implementations. If everyone supports the standards, then there is very little need to worry about interoperability. Of course, Microsoft doesn't respect standards, and so we have this problem today. That is Microsoft's fault.

Not necessarily, because some people need higher grade machine yet they can't always afford the highest-priced machine.

That is too bad, but you are essentially saying that people want something for nothing. Who, in this day and age, actually needs the power afforded by the highest-end computers? Very few people indeed need it; they simply want it. Good for them; if they want it; they can pay for it.

And that's where PC shines: You can choose to downgrade only the part(s) don't matter to your immediate needs. For example, you could have the highest performance CPU, RAM and a hard drive and then choose to just have a cheap DVD-ROM, a cheap Ethernet card and no sound to save money if you are a 3-D artist and the primary function of your PC is to render graphics.

Or you could get several even lower-end PCs and cluster them. If you have a renderer which supports it, four Mac Minis can render almost as quickly as the highest-end G5, and they'll do it for much less money. This is exactly the sort of thing that clustering software like Apple's XGrid promises.

With the Mac, you are stuck with just a few configuration combinations. You are stuck.

And I reiterate: so what? The configurations as orderable from Apple (which, by the way, are far more than "just a few", or have you actually bothered to use their store?) may be a relatively small number, but their uses are not. If you're a creative professional, then be creative.