[nonhuman]

So we need to replace our water heater. Soon. Personally I think a tankless water heater sounds like a good idea.

We were quoted $850 for a standard tanked heater and $1750 for tankless (both including installation). However we should be able to get some rebates for installing the tankless (we live in Washington DC, not sure of the exact numbers).

The two brands of tankless that were recommended were A. O. Smith and Rheem.

Does anyone have any useful input?

[nonhuman]

Other potentially useful information: it will be gas-fired either way, installed in the basement of our one-story, one bathroom house (technically there's two bathrooms, but the one in the basement is about to get torn out and won't be replaced probably for at least a few years; eventually it will be a three bathroom house).

[residentEvil]

make sure whichever one you pick; that the burner is stainless steel and the heat exchange is copper. they are suppose to; but some of the cheaper ones aren't. that will get your ~20 years of service out of one.

i would also look into DV model (direct vent); instead of having it stacked into your boiler's chimney. but that is a city/code thing to check into. every area is different.

even if it is gas fired; you will still need an outlet/power to it for the controls.

finally, you may want to have a filter (user changeable) on the inlet side of your tankless heater. that will help the unit last longer too as it will filter out all the crap. even with city water, you still have small particles that will build up over time in your burner.

oh, don't buy into the "instant hot water" at your shower/sink. the pipes will still have cold/cool water in them from the last use and it takes awhile to purge that out. so don't be like, "i paid for all this and it still takes 2 minutes to get hot water". or whatever time it is.

and, enjoy! it will pay for itself quickly!

[nonhuman]

Just found the info on the tax credit: 30% of total cost. So would bring the cost of the tankless down to $1225. Based on the numbers that I'm seeing in terms of savings that means it should pay for itself in approx. 4-5 years.

[residentEvil]

your quoted price seems high, but that could be DC.

it typically takes 2 years to pay for itself based on tax credit and utility bill savings.

[Eug]

Also, make sure it suits the needs for your house. How many people? Do you do multiple things requiring hot water at the same time? eg. You take a shower while somebody else in the house washes dishes?

There are also "tankless" water heaters which actually have small tanks, and this avoids the cold water surprise that can happen with tankless. Also, some people have multiple tankless heaters in the house, eg. one near the bathroom and one near the kitchen.

Originally Posted by residentEvil 

your quoted price seems high, but that could be DC.

it typically takes 2 years to pay for itself based on tax credit and utility bill savings.

I guess it depends on the house and locale, cuz my neighbour's quote was higher. But they have a big house, often with lots of visitors.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Also, make sure it suits the needs for your house. How many people? Do you do multiple things requiring hot water at the same time? eg. You take a shower while somebody else in the house washes dishes?

I think it will actually suit us quite well. There are only two of us, and I don't shower at home as often as not (we have showers at work and I prefer to bike to work as much as possible). The only time we're ever doing two things that require hot water at once is if we're doing laundry and washing dishes at the same time.

There are also "tankless" water heaters which actually have small tanks, and this avoids the cold water surprise that can happen with tankless. Also, some people have multiple tankless heaters in the house, eg. one near the bathroom and one near the kitchen.

For the time being, we'll definitely stick with a single heater. However our future plans call for our two-bedroom one-bathroom house to become a three-bedroom three-bathroom house at which point we'll probably put in another tankless heater to help with the extra load of the bathroom and remove the need to pipe hot water up two stories (attic conversion).

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by residentEvil 

your quoted price seems high, but that could be DC.

I suspect it's largely DC. We have a pretty excellent contractor whom I'm generally inclined to trust on prices (in general we've gotten prices from him that are not only accurate but generally acknowledged by all to be great deals).

it typically takes 2 years to pay for itself based on tax credit and utility bill savings.

Payoff in 2 years would be awesome. I'm expecting us to be in this house probably between 5 and 10 years, so the 4-5 that I was guesstimating was on the high end of what I would consider worth it. Of course we thought the same thing about our last place that we lived in for just a year before moving...

[Eug]

How much is natural gas in your neck of the woods? I had estimated (very rough ballpark) that it'd take a decade or longer for me to recoup the cost of a decent tankless setup, vs. keeping my existing tank (which I own).

I figured I'd just keep my tank until it gives me problems and then I'd consider going tankless. However, it'd have to be a pretty powerful unit or come with one of those mini tanks, because I've gotten pretty used to doing laundry or dishes and showering at the same time in the dead of winter with no affect on my nice hot showers.

There are only two people in my house too, but we get lots of visitors and it's nice being able to shower at the same time as an another person showering in a separate bathroom with no issues.

BTW, an aside…

My house actually came with 3 hot water heater tanks. (!) One was gas, and two were electric. They guy did have a bazillion people here at times, so maybe that's why, but I get the impression that the electric ones may not ever have actually been hooked up for heating. When I moved in they were only being used as cold water storage (in-line with the cold water pipes only). Yeah, the old owner was a bit odd in that way. Overbuilt lots of stuff, but that's fine by me.

[reader50]

Originally Posted by Eug 

My house actually came with 3 hot water heater tanks. (!) One was gas, and two were electric. ... I get the impression that the electric ones may not ever have actually been hooked up for heating. When I moved in they were only being used as cold water storage (in-line with the cold water pipes only).

If you live in a very cold area during winter, he may have wanted to set a minimum cold water temperature. For health or pleasure reasons, he didn't want to got shocked by how cold the water was in winter.

So he plumbed in a tank, and planned the wiring to be done before winter. Then sold the place to you before that. This doesn't explain the 2nd electric HWH on the cold water system.

[Oneota]

It's not a "Hot Water Heater." You don't have to heat hot water.

[Eug]

I am reno'ing the basement and took out the two electric tanks to free up the space. Knocked out the wall to the furnace and 'cold water heater' room and rebuilt the wall to make the room that much smaller. I gave the tanks to my contractor.

I think he was actually using them just for cold water storage. If the water got cut off, he would still have 120 gallons of cold water in storage. The house also has an gasoline powered electrical generator in the shed and hooked to my electrical wiring. It's something I've never even started up.

Maybe he was preparing for the apocalypse.

[Phileas]

I've seen people in the boonies do that kind of thing, especially if they were on well water. If the power goes out, and with it your pump, having a reserve of water in the house is not a bad thing.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Maybe he was preparing for the apocalypse.

For keeping too much water and power reserves? Maybe he was growing pot in the closet

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

I've seen people in the boonies do that kind of thing, especially if they were on well water. If the power goes out, and with it your pump, having a reserve of water in the house is not a bad thing.

Yeah, but like you, I live in Toronto. It's a 20 minute drive to the Eaton Centre.

P.S. The other feature that this guy added that I really like is the 1" supply for water.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

For keeping too much water and power reserves? Maybe he was growing pot in the closet

I like my apocalypse theory better.

[reader50]

If you're sure about the apocalypse theory, you should rip up a few floorboards. To find his holdout box, with the gold and silver bullion. Also, finding all the guns and ammo would be cool.

hmm ... maybe I just figured out what the second electric HWH was for. Did one of them have a service hatch? If so, you may have given your contractor quite the gift.

[Eug]

We ripped up the basement slab. (It was very thin 2" to 4" - originally from the 1950s - directly on top of the sandy soil. So we dug 1 foot down and laid down 6" of gravel for better drainage and then put a 6" layer of cement on top.)

We found some old booze bottles - probably whiskey bottles, buried in the sand beneath the slab. Oh to be a construction worker in the 1950s...

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

We ripped up the basement slab. (It was very thin 2" to 4" - originally from the 1950s - directly on top of the sandy soil. So we dug 1 foot down and laid down 6" of gravel for better drainage and then put a 6" layer of cement on top.)

We found some old booze bottles - probably whiskey bottles, buried in the sand beneath the slab. Oh to be a construction worker in the 1950s...

Out of curiosity, how much did it cost to do that? I'm assuming it would be fairly ridiculous to do, but it would be awesome if we could lower our basement floor a foot or two...

[Eug]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Out of curiosity, how much did it cost to do that? I'm assuming it would be fairly ridiculous to do, but it would be awesome if we could lower our basement floor a foot or two...

That's two different questions.

To rip up the floor, remove many, many tons of cement and soil (through the window) and replace it with gravel and new cement cost me well under $10000. However, the height is exactly the same.

To rip up the floor and to actually lower it, that would cost a LOT more. I think it's something like $300+ per linear foot of wall. You need to underpin it, which means reinforcing it from the inside, with regular engineering inspections. So, a 25' x 25' small basement (25 feet x 4 walls) would be CAD$30000. A somewhat bigger average house would be $45000. Plus, you'll probably need to redo all your drains and stuff. Also, you'll have a 1 foot deep bench footing inside the wall all around. That prevents the old foundation from caving in.



Because I didn't lower the floor, my basement height will only be around 6'7" or so in height after the flooring is in. That meets minimum code (6'6") for a "second suite" but it's not very tall of course. However, I didn't feel like spending another $25000 to get the floor lowered, and we're in an area where underground rivers are common, because it's sandy soil on top of not-very-permeable clay. Dig too low and we run an increased risk of flooding. (When we ripped up the basement, I noticed the sandy soil below my house was soaking wet after a rainfall, and two of my neighbours had serious issues with water coming in after digging down - one in the basement and one in the backyard.) Plus, my GF and I and my immediate relatives are relatively short - none over 6' tall, so it's usable. Also, at the back of the basement, it's almost like a walkout, with normal height windows. If I lowered the basement 1 foot, it would no longer look that way.

Lowering the basement is great, but only if you really are willing to spend the cash, and only advisable if you're in a region where the water table isn't an issue.

So why did I even bother ripping up the floor in the first place? Cuz the slab wasn't in the greatest condition, and because I wanted to be sure I had great drainage underneath, by having the gravel there.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That's two different questions.

To rip up the floor, remove several tons of soil (through the window) and replace it with gravel and new cement cost me well under $10000. However, the height is exactly the same.

To rip up the floor and to actually lower it, that would cost a LOT more. I think it's something like $300 per linear foot of wall. You need to underpin it, which means reinforcing it from the inside, with regular engineering inspections. So, a 25' x 25' small basement (25 feet x 4 walls) would be CAD$30000. A somewhat bigger average house would be $45000. Plus, you'll probably need to redo all your drains and stuff.

My basement height will only be around 6'7" or so in height after the flooring is in. That meets minimum code (6'6") for a "second suite" but it's not very tall of course. However, I didn't feel like spending another $25000 to get the floor lowered, and we're in an area where underground rivers are common, because it's sandy soil on top of not-very-permeable clay. Dig too low and we run an increased risk of flooding. (When we ripped up the basement, I noticed the sandy soil below my house was soaking wet after a rainfall.) Plus, my GF and I, and my immediate relatives are relatively short - none over 6' tall, so it's usable.

Yeah, that's about what I figured. Really just not worth it. Sadly, I'm 6'1", and although it looks like I should be able to walk right under the I-beam brace that's down there, it turns out that it would be really nice to have even just a couple more inches of clearance...

[alligator]

We put in a tankless water heater (gas fired) for a two bathroom house. We have 5 people, and it was the best thing I've done. Our gas bill is incredibly low, and we NEVER run out of hot water! I can't believe more people haven't found this technology yet.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Also, you'll have a 1 foot deep bench footing inside the wall all around. That prevents the old foundation from caving in.

Not necessarily. We own an old victorian house downtown. The previous owners spent the money to lower the basement to a depth of 7'.

The way is works is that you actually dig down underneath the original foundations. Then a new, deeper, base is poured that almost but not quite reaches the bottom of the old foundation. Once the concrete is cured an expanding foam is injected between the top of the new foundation and the bottom of the old. Once hardened that foam is as load bearing and solid as concrete.

Obviously that work has to be done in stages, otherwise the house would collapse. The entire bill, including waterproofing the outside of the house, came to 35k.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Yeah, that's about what I figured. Really just not worth it. Sadly, I'm 6'1", and although it looks like I should be able to walk right under the I-beam brace that's down there, it turns out that it would be really nice to have even just a couple more inches of clearance...

Yeah, if I weren't 5'7", I would have thought long and hard about purchasing this home. Having a foot of clearance (as in my case) is fine. Having less than 1/2 a foot clearance would be very claustrophobia inducing.

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Not necessarily. We own an old victorian house downtown. The previous owners spent the money to lower the basement to a depth of 7'.

The way is works is that you actually dig down underneath the original foundations. Then a new, deeper, base is poured that almost but not quite reaches the bottom of the old foundation. Once the concrete is cured an expanding foam is injected between the top of the new foundation and the bottom of the old. Once hardened that foam is as load bearing and solid as concrete.

Yeah, I saw a few pix of that, when people were digging much further down.

What height was the basement originally? I'm told some old homes had basements less than 6' high.

Originally Posted by alligator 

We put in a tankless water heater (gas fired) for a two bathroom house. We have 5 people, and it was the best thing I've done. Our gas bill is incredibly low, and we NEVER run out of hot water! I can't believe more people haven't found this technology yet.

What size, and do you ever get the cold water surprise?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yeah, if I weren't 5'7", I would have thought long and hard about purchasing this home. Having a foot of clearance (as in my case) is fine. Having less than 1/2 a foot clearance would be very claustrophobia inducing.

Yeah, our basement is totally fine as a basement, and I think it will work well for the bar/lounge we plan to put in, but the ceiling's a little low if we wanted to put in another bedroom or something like that.