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Silky Voice of The Gorn · Jun 25, 2002, 09:03 AM

<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=77&e=1&cid=77&u=/mc/20020625/tc_mc/adobe_ships_incopy_2_0" target="_blank">http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=77&e=1&cid=77&u=/mc/20020625/tc_mc/adobe_ships_incopy_2_0</a>

Adobe InCopy. Basically their answer to Quark CopyDesk. F you Quark. I'm recommending our layout and editorial people test an InDesign workflow. Particularly now that we're migrating to OS X and do lots of PDFs...

chris v · Jun 25, 2002, 11:28 AM

I'm one of the three knuckleheads who ordered Quark 5, and I've about had it. I'm thinking about springing for InDesign as soon as I can afford it.

Quark 5 goes totally unresponsive for 15 seconds about every five minutes, and it you were typing when this happens, you've got to type all over again. Plus, switching back and forth between Quark in Classic, and OS X appplications fills the quark window with artifacts form the other app and you've got to windowshade to get the Quark window to redraw. Royal pain.

I've got to keep Quark around because clients send me Quark files all the time, but I sure don't have to generate files in Quark any more.

Is there an InDesign demo?

CV

Vanquish · Jun 25, 2002, 11:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Is there an InDesign demo? <hr /></blockquote>yep, there is: <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html" target="_blank">http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html</a>

Timo · Jun 25, 2002, 11:39 AM

I'm one of the other knuckleheads with Quark 5. You gotta wonder if and when they are going to address that pause thing (I get two pauses, about 10 seconds apart). Unbelievably annoying.

KidRed · Jun 25, 2002, 11:40 AM

Because-

1)QUARK's AWESOME attention to mac customer support
2) Frequent Updates
3) Platinum menus since version 4
4) An excellent made from scratch cocoa version of Quark
5)everyone uses it
6)It's got a cool name
7)It keeps classic and 9 alive
8) Indesign is made by Adobe and we all know Adobe makes vaporware and doesn't update for years
9)There is no other choice
10) Awesome 32-bit grainy images in layout mode

If you need any more reasons then your not a true Quarker and Quaker or whatever....

Worst. Episode. Ever. · Jun 25, 2002, 01:23 PM

You guys get those pauses too? Good grief! I thought it was just me.

Worst. Episode. Ever. · Jun 25, 2002, 01:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
Because-
3) Platinum menus since version 4
<hr /></blockquote>Oh, and let's not forget the really cool "retro" open and save dialog boxes.

Silky Voice of The Gorn · Jun 25, 2002, 02:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:

3) Platinum menus since version 4
<hr /></blockquote>It blows my mind that 4.1 still has SYSTEM FRIKKIN 7 scrollbars and menus. Unbelievable. Does 5 fix at least THIS?

Guy Incognito · Jun 25, 2002, 02:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:

3) Platinum menus since version 4
<hr /></blockquote>It blows my mind that 4.1 still has SYSTEM FRIKKIN 7 scrollbars and menus. Unbelievable. Does 5 fix at least THIS?<hr /></blockquote>Awww c'mon...you don't like the System 6 look? It's timeless!

::maroma:: · Jun 25, 2002, 02:30 PM

Xpress is slowly dying. It will take a couple more years, but if Quark doesn't shape up, it's over. The fat lady is clearing her throat and the curtain is about to be raised. Go with InDesign. Show Quark that we won't stand for it's complete disregard for its users. Their heads got REALLY big when they had no real competition, and they could just sit on thier bread & butter app without spending ANY money on improving it. But now that InDesign is in full swing, you know they are sweatin' bullets. Question is, do they have what it takes to regain their old glory? My guess is, NO!

I have given up on Xpress. It is the app I know the best out of all the other apps, but I guess all good things must come to an end. Time to start learning InDesign.

Mac Guru · Jun 25, 2002, 02:42 PM

We went to InDesign ASAP. Quark was just ****ing us off.

SALES for example:

Us: Hey, we'd like a copy of Quark
Quark: Well then, stay on hold for 3 years and if we FEEL you are worthy we'll get back to you, (they pick back up *oh boy! we must be worthy!*), ok well we're going to need 800 forms of ID, 3000 business references, and your first born child so we can test to see if you are going to be able to purchase Quark.
Us: Ugh, NEVERMIND we're going to call Adobe!

Us: Hey, we'd like a copy of InDesign.
Adobe: Ok, what's your credit card number, here's InDesign, hope you enjoy it!

Adobe is GREAT I've used ALL of their apps and with the exception of GoLive they ROCK.

Mac Guru

Timo · Jun 25, 2002, 03:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Worst. Episode. Ever.:
You guys get those pauses too? Good grief! I thought it was just me.<hr /></blockquote>There's a long-winded thread about it at Quark's forum. One partial work-around may be disabling appletalk, but I need it for PRINTING.

There's speculation the pause is a badly-implemented sweep for license codes on a network.

MacGorilla · Jun 25, 2002, 04:03 PM

There is speculation that Quark actually exists in another demension where time runs slower than in a 100:1 porporation, explaining their very slug like upgrade cycle.

Silky Voice of The Gorn · Jun 25, 2002, 04:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Timo:
There's speculation the pause is a badly-implemented sweep for license codes on a network.<hr /></blockquote>Quark's networking code is such a byzantine mess; to this day they STILL officially advise that you copy files to your HD to work on, not opened across a network. Why? Because if Quark crashes when you have a file open, be prepared to wait at least 10 minutes before you can open it again (assuming it hasn't corrupted).

chris v · Jun 25, 2002, 04:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Vanquish:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Is there an InDesign demo? <hr /></blockquote>yep, there is: <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html" target="_blank">http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html</a><hr /></blockquote>Taking the bull by the horns-- I just downloaded the demo. Will ID 2.0 read Quark 4 and 5 files?

CV

cpac · Jun 25, 2002, 04:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
Will ID 2.0 read Quark 4 and 5 files?

CV<hr /></blockquote>Yes. (at least those I had to import turned out pretty well - can't be more specific though).

sizzle chest · Jun 25, 2002, 05:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Vanquish:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Is there an InDesign demo? <hr /></blockquote>yep, there is: <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html" target="_blank">http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html</a><hr /></blockquote>Do NOT download this demo unless you are prepared to spend money. The difference between Quark & InDesign is too great to ignore any more. My Adobe Design Collection arrived today!

Mac Guru · Jun 25, 2002, 06:42 PM

I find it to be VERY easy to use if you know your way around Quark.

I've had no setbacks from converting to InDesign. I love it.

Why would you need to spend money if you download a Demo?

Mac Guru

billybob · Jun 25, 2002, 08:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Why would you need to spend money if you download a Demo?
<hr /></blockquote>I think he means, you'll like it so much compared to quark, that you'll have to have it

Mac Guru · Jun 25, 2002, 09:40 PM

Well DUH on me!

Sorry, didn't read it right.

Mac Guru

chris v · Jun 25, 2002, 10:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sizzle chest:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Vanquish:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Is there an InDesign demo? <hr /></blockquote>yep, there is: <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html" target="_blank">http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/demodnld.html</a><hr /></blockquote>Do NOT download this demo unless you are prepared to spend money. The difference between Quark & InDesign is too great to ignore any more. My Adobe Design Collection arrived today!<hr /></blockquote>I've worn a hole right through my credit card-- I *think* I can make this one a business expense, though.

Spent about 20 minutes just poking around, and just the little things, like command+ and command- to zoom, or the spacebar to scroll with the hand tool, things that become second-nature when you work in Photoshop or Illustrator half the day, then have to forget when you switch to Quark to do your layout.

I've got to try to print a job to my imagesetter first, but I'm about sold.

CV

pdjr · Jun 25, 2002, 11:39 PM

lots of printers can barely get their way past a familiar Quark file. for those of us stuck in print, we can't jump ship just yet.

::maroma:: · Jun 25, 2002, 11:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
Spent about 20 minutes just poking around, and just the little things, like command+ and command- to zoom, or the spacebar to scroll with the hand tool, things that become second-nature when you work in Photoshop or Illustrator half the day, then have to forget when you switch to Quark to do your layout.<hr /></blockquote>That's another thing I hate about using Quark. I almost constantly use Photoshop, Illustrator and Quark at the same time. Going from one program to another. I have to make a conscious effort to switch my mode of thinking to get into 'Quark-Shortcut-Mode' from 'Adobe-Shortcut-Mode'.

That can't be good for my brain! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Alex Duffield · Jun 26, 2002, 12:34 AM

SHHH!!!!

Would you guys quiet down!!!

Some idiot at Quark might finaly realize that there customers are getting POed and crack the wip to get a half ass carbon port out (yes the pause will still be there)

Then a bunch of even stupider department managers will say "See there is no reason to move to InDesign, Quark is maintaining there software just fine"

And that will only slow down the demise of Quark...

The final knock out for Adobe will come in the next round... InDesign 2.5 "with killer knock out"

Alex Duffield · Jun 26, 2002, 12:38 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pdjr:
lots of printers can barely get their way past a familiar Quark file. for those of us stuck in print, we can't jump ship just yet.<hr /></blockquote>OLD dogs cant learn new tricks.

But there are lots of young pups (and damn smart ones to) that have no problem with change.

Its amazing how quick an old dog trys harder when he learns that.

Macola · Jun 26, 2002, 10:51 AM

Well, the problem is that designers depend on commercial printers for output. It doesn't matter how much we might like InDesign, if the print houses don't support it. There are a few who are slowly moving to PDF workflows, and that's really the direction to go. However, it's going to take a while before there's a full-scale switch from Quark.

JLL · Jun 26, 2002, 11:23 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Macola:
Well, the problem is that designers depend on commercial printers for output. It doesn't matter how much we might like InDesign, if the print houses don't support it. There are a few who are slowly moving to PDF workflows, and that's really the direction to go. However, it's going to take a while before there's a full-scale switch from Quark.<hr /></blockquote>When I worked in prepress we had to have what the customers used - not the other way around.

MacGorilla · Jun 26, 2002, 12:47 PM

I agree. You support what the customer wants, or you wont be in business for very long,

chris v · Jun 26, 2002, 01:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Macola:
Well, the problem is that designers depend on commercial printers for output. It doesn't matter how much we might like InDesign, if the print houses don't support it. There are a few who are slowly moving to PDF workflows, and that's really the direction to go. However, it's going to take a while before there's a full-scale switch from Quark.<hr /></blockquote>I AM the print house! Muahahahhh!

The more I mess with the demo, the more I like it. One major bug-- no dot in the "close window" widget to indicate an unsaved file.

But look-- I can have registration marks without crop marks! Revolutionary!

It feels pretty snappy� too!

CV

Timo · Jul 3, 2002, 06:30 PM

Quark 5.01 is out, for those of us who still are resisting InDesign...

Macola · Jul 3, 2002, 10:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Timo:
Quark 5.01 is out, for those of us who still are resisting InDesign...<hr /></blockquote>Still sticking with Quark 4.x. No point in paying $850 for a non-Carbonized app, and then paying another $850 ($900? $1200?) when they finally do release a Carbonized version.

Antenor · Jul 4, 2002, 02:26 AM

I'm no DTP expert, but I've heard good things about an alternative program which reminds me a lot of XPress. It's called M-Layout by SoftMagic. It's a Cocoa program and they have a demo for it. Check it out at <a href="http://www.softmagic.com/mdownload.htm" target="_blank">http://www.softmagic.com/mdownload.htm</a>.

Cheers,
Antenor

ps: here's a screenshot: <a href="http://www.softmagic.com/graphics/howitworksimage/howitwoksgif/m1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.softmagic.com/graphics/howitworksimage/howitwoksgif/m1.jpg</a>

[ 07-04-2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: Antenor ]

undotwa · Jul 4, 2002, 03:07 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Macola:
Well, the problem is that designers depend on commercial printers for output. It doesn't matter how much we might like InDesign, if the print houses don't support it. There are a few who are slowly moving to PDF workflows, and that's really the direction to go. However, it's going to take a while before there's a full-scale switch from Quark.<hr /></blockquote>I AM the print house! Muahahahhh!

The more I mess with the demo, the more I like it. One major bug-- no dot in the "close window" widget to indicate an unsaved file.

But look-- I can have registration marks without crop marks! Revolutionary!

It feels pretty snappy� too!

CV<hr /></blockquote>I wouldn't call that a bug. It's a cocoa feature which isn't in carbon (I think) which carbon developers have to specifically program for (I think).

chris v · Jul 4, 2002, 05:15 PM

It turns out there is a problem with InDesign as far as printing for me. I print to a EcoPro dry film imager, which is basically a desktop postscript machine. Oyo Instruments doesn't give 2 sh*its about OS X, and may never write a ppd file for OS X. They hadn't even bought a copy of OS X the last time I called their "support" dept. in January. The tech I talked to said I was the only person who'd ever even inquired as to OS X drivers. Not a good sign.

I worked around this in Illustrator 10 by selecting the OS 9 ppd file in the OS 9 system folder, and somehow, it works. Quark also prints fine from Classic.

InDesign won't let me change PPD files from within the application the way Illustrator does. When I select my printer (in the InDesign print dialog) from the pop-up menu, the list of PPD files right below it is greyed out, no matter what I do. It appears to have selected a PPD file for an EcoPro, but no film ever prints. The printer just hangs on "loading."

Bummer.

CV

cutter766 · Jul 4, 2002, 10:59 PM

I'm gradually making the transition to InDesign, but I'm suprised no one else is bothered by the sluggishness of ID. I can't speak for Quark 5.0, but I love Quark's responsiveness on screen.

aehaas · Jul 5, 2002, 10:48 AM

I just got the 5.01 updater and it starts then stops. A dialog box indicates that a file is missing. Useless update.

aehaas

King Chung Huang · Jul 5, 2002, 11:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
InDesign won't let me change PPD files from within the application the way Illustrator does. When I select my printer (in the InDesign print dialog) from the pop-up menu, the list of PPD files right below it is greyed out, no matter what I do. It appears to have selected a PPD file for an EcoPro, but no film ever prints. The printer just hangs on "loading."

Bummer.

CV<hr /></blockquote>I had the same problem printing directly to a film imager a couple months ago at a print shop from my PowerBook. I ended up restarting in Mac OS 9 and printing from there. InDesign runs in both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X.

chris v · Jul 5, 2002, 02:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by King Chung Huang:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
InDesign won't let me change PPD files from within the application the way Illustrator does. When I select my printer (in the InDesign print dialog) from the pop-up menu, the list of PPD files right below it is greyed out, no matter what I do. It appears to have selected a PPD file for an EcoPro, but no film ever prints. The printer just hangs on "loading."

Bummer.

CV<hr /></blockquote>I had the same problem printing directly to a film imager a couple months ago at a print shop from my PowerBook. I ended up restarting in Mac OS 9 and printing from there. InDesign runs in both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X.<hr /></blockquote>I can print from Quark fine in both X and Classic-- the point for me is as much to be able to go 9 and Classic free, as to move away from Quark. I'm not so sure I want to drop multiple hundreds of dollars on apps that'll only work in 9 right now.

CV