[Guy Incognito 2]

You may all continue to use tabs on a regular basis. But this dude will be using Expos�.

[OptimusG4]

Um, ok.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Yeah...I admit I sound a bit ridiculous but I really wanted a new window management solution and Apple finally has something that works.

And I was tired of the tabbed-browsing zealotry in these forums. Now I can sleep peacefully knowing Apple is going in the right direction and Dave Hyatt in the wrong direction.

(I actually use tabbed-browsing but only for the loading of "grouped bookmarks"...but as a whole, tabs are an inelegant solution to a window management problem that has been with us since the dawn of multitasking.)

[DrSpookles]

I love the tabs, and probably will continue to with expose. I like not having multiple windows unecessarily open all over the place, even if it is easy to switch amongst them with the new OS My question is, why hasn't IE gotten tabs yet?

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Yeah...I admit I sound a bit ridiculous but I really wanted a new window management solution and Apple finally has something that works.

And I was tired of the tabbed-browsing zealotry in these forums.

haha, nothing like your proteus zealotry

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Now I can sleep peacefully knowing Apple is going in the right direction and Dave Hyatt in the wrong direction.

Dave Hyatt works for apple, if apple didn't approve of the tab use in safari, they wouldn't have let it in. even steve jobs likes tabbed browsing and mentioned its innovation in the keynote. get off your high horse

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
haha, nothing like your proteus zealotry Dave Hyatt works for apple, if apple didn't approve of the tab use in safari, they wouldn't have let it in. even steve jobs likes tabbed browsing and mentioned its innovation in the keynote. get off your high horse

I wasn't really exhibiting any zealotry when talking about Proteus.

Jobs has to tout the features that are introduced...doesn't mean he likes them. Apple also seems to be incorporating highly requested features. I'm sure that if Expos� had been introduced sooner, tabbed-browsing wouldn't have been added to Safari.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I wasn't really exhibiting any zealotry when talking about Proteus.

Jobs has to tout the features that are introduced...doesn't mean he likes them. Apple also seems to be incorporating highly requested features. I'm sure that if Expos� had been introduced sooner, tabbed-browsing wouldn't have been added to Safari.

i guess not strict zealotry, but you do exhibit an air of fanaticism or excessive praise of the product--that's off topic, though, sorry . as far as tabs go, i think they're handy on my 1024x768 resolution, but i'll be getting much use out of expose, which looks like a great feature.

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
And I was tired of the tabbed-browsing zealotry in these forums. Now I can sleep peacefully knowing Apple is going in the right direction and Dave Hyatt in the wrong direction.

And we were sick of all your "Tabs are the devil" bitching and moaning.

Tabs are great. They do what they're supposed to. And once again might I point out that they're OPTIONAL.

99% of your complaining was based on nothing but theoretical "ideals" and supposed "users" who got confused when faced with more than one thing in front of them.

But the truth is: Tabs work. Look how quickly so many of us have gotten used to them, and how many of us think they're a great idea.

No one is forcing you to use them, so don't. Just don't proclaim that somehow you're "right" and believe it.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by ReggieX:
And we were sick of all your "Tabs are the devil" bitching and moaning.

Tabs are great. They do what they're supposed to. And once again might I point out that they're OPTIONAL.

99% of your complaining was based on nothing but theoretical "ideals" and supposed "users" who got confused when faced with more than one thing in front of them.

But the truth is: Tabs work. Look how quickly so many of us have gotten used to them, and how many of us think they're a great idea.

No one is forcing you to use them, so don't. Just don't proclaim that somehow you're "right" and believe it.

What!? Are you serious!? I thought I was forced to use them. Why didn't anyone tell me?

Tabs work...but not well. Expos� works...and works well.

[Brass]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
What!? Are you serious!? I thought I was forced to use them. Why didn't anyone tell me?

Tabs work...but not well. Expos� works...and works well.

I think they have very different purposes (at least for how I'll use them).

I'll continue to use tabs in Camino (and maybe later Safari, when Safari becomes usable on as many websites), because it is easy to switch between various web pages that way.

However, I imagine I'll use Expos� to see windows of multiple applications, not just Camino or Safari.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by Brass:
I think they have very different purposes (at least for how I'll use them).

If they serve different purposes, I don't see them.

Tabs lay out multiple windows textually on one line inside a window. Expos� lays them out graphically across the entire screen.

Tabs, however, force everything into one window and breaks the multitasking aspect that the OS is trying to offer.

But like I said, people can continue to use tabs if they want...but I'm glad Apple finally found a solution for people that found tabs to be inadequate.

[sandman]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
If they serve different purposes, I don't see them.

Tabs lay out multiple windows textually on one line inside a window. Expos� lays them out graphically across the entire screen.

Tabs, however, force everything into one window and breaks the multitasking aspect that the OS is trying to offer.

But like I said, people can continue to use tabs if they want...but I'm glad Apple finally found a solution for people that found tabs to be inadequate.

Here we go again.

[kman42]

Originally posted by Brass:
I think they have very different purposes (at least for how I'll use them).

I'll continue to use tabs in Camino (and maybe later Safari, when Safari becomes usable on as many websites), because it is easy to switch between various web pages that way.

However, I imagine I'll use Expos� to see windows of multiple applications, not just Camino or Safari.

Yup. Guy is an idiot if he thinks that Expose is a solution for browsing akin to tabs. Expose takes way more effort to switch between windows than tabs do to switch between browser pages. My tabs always load in the same order and I have all the web pages I need inside the same window at a moments notice. Expose is great for switching between windows, but it is much slower than tabs. You have to visually identify the window you want to switch to and it could be in any number of different locations on the screen depending on how many apps/windows you have open at any given time. With tabs, I always know the order of my web pages.

Expose is great. Tabbed browsing is great. They serve two very different functions. Expose is more an alternative to Codetek Virtual Desktops than it is an alternative to tabbed browsing in safari.

Guy is an idiot as has been shown many times. He has also shown that he will continue to be an idiot forever and I don't know why I waste my time even looking in his threads. I guess I'm an idiot too.

kman

[Brass]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Tabs, however, ... breaks the multitasking aspect that the OS is trying to offer.

eh???

If you mean the multi-tasking the OS provides, then that's rubbish. All my web pages load at the same time in separate threads (ie, tasks) in Camino.

If you mean human multi-tasking, I can't read more than one web page at a time anyway. Even if I could, expose wouldn't help that any more than tabs.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by kman42:
Expose is great. Tabbed browsing is great. They serve two very different functions. Expose is more an alternative to Codetek Virtual Desktops than it is an alternative to tabbed browsing in safari.

[Judge_Fire]

I'm a rabid tabber,

and Expos� looks promising. Without the hands-on experience, though, I really can't form any real opinion.

+ I like the new aspect of having individual window sizes for every browser page.

- I don't enjoy losing the ability to see all window titles (or a hint) and their status.

How these and other features balance and how the UI feels will soon be answered...

J

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by Brass:
eh???

If you mean the multi-tasking the OS provides, then that's rubbish. All my web pages load at the same time in separate threads (ie, tasks) in Camino.

If you mean human multi-tasking, I can't read more than one web page at a time anyway. Even if I could, expose wouldn't help that any more than tabs.

By multitasking I mean the possibility of looking at two websites simultaneously, dragging and dropping between two windows. It is possible to view two web pages at a time...maybe not read them simultaneously but often I need two webpages up on the screen for comparison or say you've got a movie trailer running in one browser window, and you want to see it while checking out other pages.

Sure, with tabbed-browsing you can open multiple windows, all with their set of tabs...but what's the use when you've got Expos�.

kman, that's not very nice. I was banned once for that kind of rude behavior...are you trying to get yourself banned? If you can't offer a good rebuttal, don't try to rebut at all.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Sure, with tabbed-browsing you can open multiple windows, all with their set of tabs...but what's the use when you've got Expos�.

I believe the use is to hinder visual clutter from having multiple windows open at once. Which Expos� does not remedy at all, just makes it easier to navigate.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
I believe the use is to hinder visual clutter from having multiple windows open at once. Which Expos� does not remedy at all, just makes it easier to navigate.

Isn't that the point of Expos� though? Not needing to worry about cluttering your screen since navigation between windows is now easy.

With Expos�, I won't have to worry about having multiple browser windows or multiple windows period.

Expos� easily clears away windows to reveal the desktop. Expos� shows you all open windows of the app that's in the foreground. And Expos� shows you all the open windows from all apps. All this via either keyboard shortcuts, mouse-buttons or gestures.

Really, I mean it and I said it twice before... everyone can continue using tabs but I've found my solution to clutter. People can keep worrying about tidiness and closing/hiding/minimizing windows and using tabs to contain everything in one window...which is fine. I don't want to spend time doing that though.

I can keeping cluttering without any worries. I suppose that may make my 'an idiot' like kman so elegantly put it...but if using Expos� for this kind of stuff makes me an idiot...then, mister, I'm an idiot and proud of it.

[Sven G]

Expos� reminds a little of the Ion X11 window manager: that is, with the desktop divided into frames, each of which dedicated to a window. A possible evolution and/or user preference for Expos� could maybe be to "frame" the window miniatures (� la iTunes panes), thus reducing clutter even more.

Anyway, personally I think that Expos� and tabs complement each other quite well, Expos� rather being Apple's own, "original" implementation of virtual/multiple desktops/workspaces: maybe there'll even be a truly "multidimensional" Expos� in the future, who knows...

Here are some (big) Ion screenshots (also featuring tabs, BTW):

Screenshot 1

Screenshot 2

Screenshot 3

Screenshot 4

Screenshot 5

Screenshot 6

... Very neat and ordered, IMO.

Another, more "free-floating" variant of this (pseudo-Expos� + tabs, i.e.) is PWM:

Screenshot 1

Screenshot 2

Screenshot 3

Screenshot 4

So, it's definitely possible (and also desirable, IMO) to implement both Expos� and tabs simultaneously (and not only in Safari): and Apple would certainly do it even better than those rather unknown X11 window managers!

P.S.: Talking about tabs, Panther's new "static" tabs (in System Preferences and other apps) are definitely "different": not sure if they're better, however...

[Skywalkers new Hand]

I don't see at all how Expose is a replacement for Tabs.

[kman42]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
or say you've got a movie trailer running in one browser window, and you want to see it while checking out other pages.

I doubt that would be applicable very often unless you had no other apps open. With any reasonable number of windows, expose will make them too small to read for any length of time, if at all. I agree, however, if you want to watch a movie and read a web page, it is better to have two windows. This behavior is not mutually exclusive of using tabs. I did it with the keynote. Three windows, each with a set of tabs. One window had all of the 'live' update websites in tabs, one had this forum and one had appleinsider.

kman

[lookmark]

I could see how Expos�, used in the default F10 mode, could be a very decent way of handling multiple windows in browsing. I'll be curious to see how it works in practice...

I think it'll depend, in part, on whether there's a keyboard hotkey for navigating minimized windows *within* Expos�.

Expos� is brilliant, btw, but -- as a one-time tabbed browsing skeptic -- I have to say that Safari's tab implementation has won me over. Hyatt's detailed, well thought-out defense posted on his web site a few months ago was the icing on the cake. Safari's tabs work very well, IMO, and solve most of the problems in other tabbed browsing implementation.

GMMV. (Guy's Mileage May Vary.)

[eevyl]

Well, I have not tried Expos� yet, but for me it appears as a dirty workaround to a User Interface problem.

I do not get the "user friendly" bit of Expos�. The simple fact that you have to know what the f***k is and how it works step by step, is a bad thing. Not very straightforward to me for the average user.

I mean, a red button with a cross is a bit more intuitive than having to hit a function key just to have your screen coming to live

The current UIs are dying, I expect Apple to come with a revolution soon, rather than hack some more eye candy workarounds.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I wasn't really exhibiting any zealotry when talking about Proteus.

Jobs has to tout the features that are introduced...doesn't mean he likes them. Apple also seems to be incorporating highly requested features. I'm sure that if Expos� had been introduced sooner, tabbed-browsing wouldn't have been added to Safari.

Heh. My sig.

[jocker]

You know, I'm new to MacNN but I've been using macs/windows and linux for 10 years.

Expose is awesome in that it provides a VISUAL representation of EVERYTHING you currently have open on your computer INSTANTLY.

Tabs only provide 13 characters of information. Now press F9 and you've got full visual representation.

You guys slagged off Guy and I bet you haven't even used Expose yet. Go get Panther from Bit Torrent and then tell me Expose is rubbish.

I'm not saying Tabs are bad, heck I refused to use Safari until it had Tabs, but once you've used Expose, you will realise that this is such an amazing innovation, you hope that Apple have patented it.

Sorry kman, you're plain rude.

[eevyl]

And by the way, for me Expos� along with the "new" windows-like application switching interface, just shows that Apple is completely unable to improve the Dock further...

Sad...

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by eevyl:
And by the way, for me Expos� along with the "new" windows-like application switching interface, just shows that Apple is completely unable to improve the Dock further...

Sad...

Tell us how the Dock can be improved...

I'd like to see some improvements to the Dock too but the Dock is supposed to be simple.

My idea of improvement would be to simplify the Dock even more and not allow windows to minimize to it.

[eevyl]

I am not going to repeat the trillion brilliant ideas about Dock improvements (a lot in these very forums, do a search).

I am with you that with the Expos� thing, the Dock should have gone more simplistic, to not let it confuse users when using Expos�.

Expos� shows the minimized windows when invoking? So what windows Expos� shows? Only the visible ones? But the Dock may be visible, and some floating windows are visible when the app is in front, but not when in background... The more I think of it, the more I find it complex...

I am not saying that I won't be using it, in fact I am sure I am going to make extensive use of it, but I am just talking about UIs design, and talking from a non-poweruser point of view.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
My idea of improvement would be to simplify the Dock even more and not allow windows to minimize to it.

Right, with expose I don't see the point in minimizing a window to the dock. What does expose do with minimized windows, treat them just like other open windows?

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
Right, with expose I don't see the point in minimizing a window to the dock. What does expose do with minimized windows, treat them just like other open windows?

Yeah...they unDock and tile up with the rest of the open windows.

[badtz]

Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
I don't see at all how Expose is a replacement for Tabs.

Same here!!!

As for this debate, it's utterly pointless.

Tabs are completely optional on Safari, thus CLOSE IT if you don't like it! But for the one's that do [like myself] use it.

I hate having multiple windows open [even with Expose] it just makes the desktop look to cluttered. Expose only brings the window you want to the foreground, it does not HIDE or MINIMIZE [automatically] any of the windows.

The tabs feature in Safari is a great implementation compared to anything out there.

Anyway, the point of this is that it's pointless to bicker about two great features.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Yeah...they unDock and tile up with the rest of the open windows.

No. They don't.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by Moose:
No. They don't.

They don't? I heard it twice on AppleInsider. Who to believe, who to believe.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
They don't? I heard it twice on AppleInsider. Who to believe, who to believe.

Probably the person who knows what he's talking about.

[Guy Incognito 2]

double post

[kman42]

Sorry kman, you're plain rude. [/B]

yup. Not usually though. If you had been here to put up with Guy's poorly rationalized anti-tab rambling for the last three months, you'd be driven to rudeness too.

I'm actually surprised to hear Guy say that he's okay with tabs being an option now. His previous position was that even as an option it would cause such mass confusion among the user base that it should be banned.

At any rate, I apologize for being rash and interjecting negativity into this thread.

Back on topic: would someone like to show me a screenshot of expose displaying the following web pages in separate windows:

macsurfer.com
forums.macnn.com
thinksecrect.com
macosrumors.com
spymac.com
versiontracker.com
mac.com
osxhints.com
slashdot.org
macslash.org

This is my standard set of morning mac news sites that open at the push of a button and are conveniently arranged for my browsing pleasure at the press of a tab, already loaded. I can switch to all of my morning websites by moving my mouse an inch and clicking between each site. I count a function key, many inches of mouse movement, and a click to accomplish the same thing with Expose, not to mention the PITA loading of each page in a separate window to begin with. Alternatively, I could load them sequentially by clicking in my bookmarks bar and draggin down to a bookmark in a menu, hoping that I hit them accurately, and then wait for them to load. Certainly, even this second option is better than using expose. I'm not bagging on expose as I think it is brilliant for what it does, but it is certainly not an efficient replacement for tabbed browsing.

kman

[allap]

kman42, might i suggest the use of Net News Wire instead of visiting all those sites everymorning. It might save you some time

I think both tabs and expos� are great ui ideas, and since their both optional, why bother choosing sides?

[lookmark]

'Cause it's a dreaded UI philosophy debate.

{cue omnious music}

For instance, I use tabbed browsing. Tabbed browsing is very useful -- I think Safari's implementation is really good in particular.

But I've noticed now, for past few months, people beginning to request tabbed browsing across the OS -- in the Terminal, in the Finder (one post in a recent thread cried indiginantly 'No tabbed browsing in Finder yet??!!'). As a systemwide ability. Quark just gained tabs (of a sort).

So, now tabbed browsing begins to shift from a browsing-focused feature -- where, for intermediate to advanced users, one is opening and closing and moving around lots and lots of windows, and related groups of windows -- to a system-wide feature. At some point it then begins shift from "just an option" to a solution to window management.

Thankfully, Apple came up with Expos� for a systemwide solution for window management; by all accounts it's impressive.

This is so the right way to go. Smart Apple.

I still think that tabbed browsing can be invaluable... on a app-by-app basis. Apple may even be opening the door (very slightly) to this to other apps, as well, if I'm correctly interpreting its redesign of static tabs as joined buttons. We'll see, I guess. But tabbed browsing isn't cure-all for window management woes; all it does is help simplify window management in a single application, where windows are created and closed at great frequency.

[lookmark]

BTW, from another report it appears that hitting tab or command-~ after Expos� is activated will cycle through the minimized windows on screen. Hopefully in load order, too...

Sounds awesome. Can't wait.

[gorgonzola]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2
I wasn't really exhibiting any zealotry when talking about Proteus.

This is absolutely absurd. I am rather amazed that you have the temerity to suggest that you were not rabidly evangelizing Proteus to a bizarre and disruptive extent. At the point where you were intervening in threads about *other* Instant Messaging products to criticize them and push Proteus, it gets to be really ridiculous. I haven't gotten that many complaints about a single user since I banned KellyHogan.

Now it's the same thing with tabs. A lot of people like them. It's one thing to suggest that Expos� will allow people who don't like using tabs a way to manage the clutter of browser windows, but you have to go the extra mile and try to claim that tabs are "wrong" and Expos� is "right". Your surprisingly vehement whining about tabs has been at the very least equal to anyone else's liking of the feature. You seem to have this irritating penchant for annoying people and starting flamewars.

I am also highly surprised to see that you don't think you are being rude anymore.

And finally, we don't ban usernames, we ban users. Once you're banned, please do not reregister. It is not welcome.