[JohnSmithXTREME]

In western Europe, it is pretty obvious that Christianity is at an all time low. Pews are empty, parishes are starving, and most people just don't believe anymore. I think it's fair to say that only old people go to church in Europe. I have a feeling that religion is at a crossroads now that the pope has died: either Christianity will finally die off for good, or a new pope could revitalize the church. What do you think will happen? Honestly I think that European Christianity will die off within our lifetime, and it will be replaced by New Age religions, and to a lesser extent, Islam.

[Zimphire]

Catholicism does not = Christianity as a whole.

[JohnSmithXTREME]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Catholicism does not = Christianity as a whole.

Yes but when you look at the rate of church attendance across the denominations, the Catholic church is the only viable sect of Christianity left in western Europe. As such, if the Catholic church slips into greater decline with the new pope, there won't be any christians left in Europe. So, keeping that in mind, would you please tell me something I don't know?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
So, keeping that in mind, would you please tell me something I don't know?

This thread is going to go nowhere fast.

[JohnSmithXTREME]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
This thread is going to go nowhere fast.

I can thank you for that. Now please don't reply anymore.

[Zimphire]

Why?

[nath]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Catholicism does not = Christianity as a whole.

No, but even though it is historically the strongest of the European denominations, its congregation in terms of church attendance is still collapsing within that continent. The OP raises an valid point WRT to the collapse of traditional church-going Christianity in Europe.

[RonnieoftheRose]

The decline of religion in Europe has been one of the greatest influences on the modernization and secularization of Islam. Islam's fundamentalists feed off American Christian fundamentalists and vice versa.

[budster101]

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
Yes but when you look at the rate of church attendance across the denominations, the Catholic church is the only viable sect of Christianity left in western Europe. As such, if the Catholic church slips into greater decline with the new pope, there won't be any christians left in Europe. So, keeping that in mind, would you please tell me something I don't know?

Your ass from a hole in the ground.

But, that is besides the point.

I'm sick and tired of the anti-catholic posts and poster children in these forums. The left is now attacking the Pope, and now attacking the Catholic Church.

Why do you even care what the numbers are?
Fact: Europe is overrun with Muslims. They'll probably either soon regret it or give in and be overtaken by them...

Not that I care, but it shows in their policies on terrorism.

France is a great example of the idiocy and lack of seperation between church and state... Same goes for Spain. Get it?

Here is something you don't know as well.

".................." < See? And I'm not going to tell you either.

[Shaddim]

Atheism is the rising religion in Europe. But then, many people have predicted this would happen for some time.

[JohnSmithXTREME]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Atheism is the rising religion in Europe. But then, many people have predicted this would happen for some time.

I believe that the rise in atheism has a whole lot to do with Europe experiencing two world wars, and the subsequent threat of Soviet invasion. There was so much bloodshed and paranoia in 20th century Europe that it is no surprise Europeans lost their faith.

Originally posted by RonnieoftheRose:
The decline of religion in Europe has been one of the greatest influences on the modernization and secularization of Islam. Islam's fundamentalists feed off American Christian fundamentalists and vice versa.

I remember that (the exiled) Empress Farah of Iran said something very similar in an interview with The Times last year. I had always figured that European secularism was responsible for the rise in radical Islam, but it seems to make more sense that American Fundementalism and Muslim Fundementalism mutually effect each other. I consider Farah Pahlavi to be a rather wise woman, and I usually take her opinions with special consideration.

[OAW]

The topic of this thread reminds me of a scene from The Godfather Part III where Cardinal Lamberto is speaking to Michael Corleone about this very topic ....

CARDINAL LAMBERTO

"Look at this stone. It has been lying in the water for a very long time, but the water has not penetrated it."

<He breaks the stone.>

"Look. Perfectly dry. The same thing has happened to men in Europe. For centuries they have been surrounded by Christianity, but Christ has not penetrated. Christ doesn't breathe within them."

Kinda makes you wonder if the writer hit the nail right on the head with that one.

OAW

[budster101]

godfather III? Ack.

[NYCFarmboy]

The new religion that seems to have taken hold now is Environmentalism/Petaism... forcefully replacing Christian/Judeao God with pagan tree/animal worship.

[budster101]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
The new religion that seems to have taken hold now is Environmentalism/Petaism... forcefully replacing Christian/Judeao God with pagan tree/animal worship.

Hey! I worship animals and trees.

Animals when their cooked carcases are on my plate and I'm about to eat them, and trees for when I go and buy the logs to put in my fireplace on a nice winter's night...

[JohnSmithXTREME]

I actually don't know anybody who worships animals or trees. Maybe I should spend more time in Camden Town...

[budster101]

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
I actually don't know anybody who worships animals or trees. Maybe I should spend more time in Camden Town...

From the looks of your sig, you worship, One Animal, One Horrible Television Show, and a Terrorist... or are you saying that you hate these things in your sig?

[JohnSmithXTREME]

The OC is not a horrible television show! Just because it is popular does not make it bad.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
I actually don't know anybody who worships animals or trees.

Meat and mash with gravy. Worthy of worship.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by MacNStein:Atheism is...etc

Atheism is not a religion. Period. This is a statement of fact. It is not an invitation to further discussion.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
Atheism is not a religion. Period. This is a statement of fact. It is not an invitation to further discussion.

[dcmacdaddy]

So, we have the very real possibility that a large swath of the developed Western world has little or no need for contemporary organized religion.

Why is this possible shift so important to some people? All throughout the history of human civilization there have been different cultures with different, and changing, religious practices?

We've had two millenia of Judeo-Chris-lamic religions. This followed a millenia of pantheistic religions (in Greece and Italy), which was somewhat contemporaneous with the end of three millenia of helio-centric religious practices (in Egypt).

Why should the process of cultural change and development--that is fundamental to the human condition--not continue? Perhaps Europe is entering the very beginning stages of a new religio-cultural paradigm that won't be fully manifest for another couple centuries.

So what's the problem?

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
So, we have the very real possibility that a large swath of the developed Western world has little or no need for contemporary organized religion.

Why is this possible shift so important to some people? All throughout the history of human civilization there have been different cultures with different, and changing, religious practices?

We've had two millenia of Judeo-Chris-lamic religions. This followed a millenia of pantheistic religions (in Greece and Italy), which was somewhat contemporaneous with the end of three millenia of helio-centric religious practices (in Egypt).

Why should the process of cultural change and development--that is fundamental to the human condition--not continue? Perhaps Europe is entering the very beginning stages of a new religio-cultural paradigm that won't be fully manifest for another couple centuries.

So what's the problem?

The idea that a religious idea could collapse much like others have is a threat to large part of the lives of some people in this forum. It explains the hostility.

[nath]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
The idea that a religious idea could collapse much like others have is a threat to large part of the lives of some people in this forum. It explains the hostility.

Communism...fascism...socialism...



Come in Christianity, your time is up.

[budster101]

Atheism does qualify as an organized religion.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
Atheism is not a religion. Period. This is a statement of fact. It is not an invitation to further discussion.

Son, you're about a year too late for this argument. The Atheists lost the debate then, and they'd lose it again now. The fact that they argued the issue so fervently only strengthened the case against them.

[budster101]

Originally posted by nath:


Communism...fascism...socialism...



Come in Christianity, your time is up.

Actually,

Communism, Socialism... Fascism,

LIBERALISM, your time is up. These are all synonyms, not what you said.

[tae667]

That wicca thing is getting popular in here, especially with young people. As an atheist I hate it, they should worship original Finnish gods, not some neoneo crap, but the decline of christianity is great.

[JohnSmithXTREME]

Frankly, I have mixed feelings about the decline or religion. Christianity may not have been perfect, but the greatest tragedies of modern history have been perpetrated under the banner of atheism and nordic neo-paganism: the holocaust, stalinist purges, ethnic cleansing, etc.

[budster101]

Whoa. Just. Whoa.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by MacNStein: "The usual condescending blather."

There is no argument. I stated a fact. Whether you recognized it as one is immaterial. Atheism is not a religion. Period.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
There is no argument. I stated a fact. Whether you recognized it as one is immaterial. Atheism is not a religion. Period.

Spoken with the usual religious ire of the faithful. Thanks for proving my point.

[budster101]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
There is no argument. I stated a fact. Whether you recognized it as one is immaterial. Atheism is not a religion. Period.

Whatever you say. Keep *believing* that if you must. We all now the truth.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
There is no argument. I stated a fact. Whether you recognized it as one is immaterial. Atheism is not a religion. Period.

No, it's a faith. There are some atheist religions and there are also many non-religious atheists. The same could be said of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and most of the other faiths typically classed as "religions" when they're really more like categories of faith.

If you truly want a belief system without faith, then you should go with agnosticism: open to any possibility, but with faith in none. Agnosticism does not make a choice, believing that there is no evidence to support any of them. Atheism makes that choice just as any other faith does.

I respect all faiths, even atheism, but I have little patience for people who do not recognize their own faith as such when it's staring them in the face. If you want to subscribe to an atheist faith, this is your prerogative, but you should be aware that it is a kind of faith, not much different from any other. If you don't want to have faith, then atheism isn't for you any more than any of the theistic faiths.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by budster101:
Atheism does qualify as an organized religion.

Not atheism itself, no; it's not a religion any more than "Christianity" or "Judaism" or "Islam". The actual religions are a step below this classification.

There are some atheist organized religions, however. Secular humanists would no doubt be highly offended if I were to call them one such religion, but let's not kid ourselves. A somewhat less controversial choice would be religious humanism, from which secular humanism split several decades ago. Many animist faiths could be considered atheist as well; they do believe in spirits, but it wouldn't really be accurate to call them gods in the same sense that we typically think of gods.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Millennium:
There are some atheist religions and there are also many non-religious atheists. The same could be said of Christianity, Judaism, Islam...

how can you be a "non-religious" christian, muslim or jew? (or are you talking about "practicing"?)

atheism, is by definition, not a "religion", even though it relies on some aspects of faith (in philosophical terms)...

OT, - the future for any religion in europe will be a personal "mosaic" of different kinds of views (spiritual and non spiritual). nobody i know goes to church, but some consider themselves christians and almost all believe in a diety, or some kind of spiritualism (in a very abstract way).

[Millennium]

My personal guess for Europe, by the way, is that although Islam will gain in popularity, religion itself will be outlawed in Europe before Islam gains a majority. This ban will not specifically target Islam -though there will certainly be accusations to that effect- but will target all religions under the claim that they "incite hatred and violence".

[Millennium]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
how can you be a "non-religious" christian, muslim or jew? (or are you talking about "practicing"?)

By believing but not joining up with any church, temple, or the equivalent. I should define my terms a bit better, I suppose; I think I'm using slightly different definitions here than many.

[nath]

Originally posted by Millennium:
My personal guess for Europe, by the way, is that although Islam will gain in popularity, religion itself will be outlawed in Europe before Islam gains a majority. This ban will not specifically target Islam -though there will certainly be accusations to that effect- but will target all religions under the claim that they "incite hatred and violence".

That's an interesting, and quite scary, post.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Millennium:
My personal guess for Europe, by the way, is that although Islam will gain in popularity, religion itself will be outlawed in Europe before Islam gains a majority.

i don't understand how people come to this kind of conclusion. very few (if any people) are converting to islam. turkey and bosnia, which, imho are the largest "muslim countries" (turkey is actually a laecistic state) in europe aren't really all that influentual, and the only muslim "populations" in western europe (and the east) are immigrants.

i really don't see islam becoming that popular.

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by budster101:
Actually,

Communism, Socialism... Fascism,

LIBERALISM, your time is up. These are all synonyms, not what you said.

*sigh*...Fascism is extremist right wing, not left. Get it right for the nth time...please.

This use of labels is so tiring. Jefferson was a liberal as were many of his fellow framers. I know this is the political lounge but can't we just debate this issue without all the usual crap? It's an interesting topic minus the atheism-religion sidebar.

[JohnSmithXTREME]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
This use of labels is so tiring. Jefferson was a liberal as were many of his fellow framers. I know this is the political lounge but can't we just debate this issue without all the usual crap?

[nath]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
the only muslim "populations" in western europe (and the east) are immigrants.

i really don't see islam becoming that popular.

Yes - but the issue (if you see it as an issue) is that immigration levels are generally rising across Western Europe (often from predominantly Islamic countries), whilst church-going by the indigenous populations is generally falling.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by nath:
Yes - but the issue (if you see it as an issue) is that immigration levels are generally rising across Western Europe (often from predominantly Islamic countries)...

yes, i hear a lot about these hoards of immigrants (usually by conservative doomsday sayers), but i just don't see it (maybe i just haven't looked hard enough? )

some numbers would be very interesting. i know the german immigrant percentage from "muslim countries" is around 18% (of the entire population)...i don't think this figure has drastically increased over the years. i'm sure france has a somewhat higher figure...i doubt denmark, sweden etc. are up there.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by Millennium:
My personal guess for Europe, by the way, is that although Islam will gain in popularity, religion itself will be outlawed in Europe before Islam gains a majority. This ban will not specifically target Islam -though there will certainly be accusations to that effect- but will target all religions under the claim that they "incite hatred and violence".

One of the most stupid posts ever made on the internet and by a no less than a moderator.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
*sigh*...Fascism is extremist right wing, not left. Get it right for the nth time...please.

This use of labels is so tiring. Jefferson was a liberal as were many of his fellow framers. I know this is the political lounge but can't we just debate this issue without all the usual crap? It's an interesting topic minus the atheism-religion sidebar.

He and others were liberal for their time, today they'd be considered quite conservative.

[nath]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
yes, i hear a lot about these hoards of immigrants (usually by conservative doomsday sayers), but i just don't see it (maybe i just haven't looked hard enough? )

some numbers would be very interesting. i know the german immigrant percentage from "muslim countries" is around 18% (of the entire population)...i don't think this figure has drastically increased over the years. i'm sure france has a somewhat higher figure figure...i doubt denmark, sweden etc. are up there.

Well, the overall numbers the UK is taking has risen substantially over recent years. Net non-EU migration to the UK increased from 44,000 per year in 1992 to 233,000 per year in 2002. (from http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/ - a widely respected non-partisan group)

Please note that I'm not saying that ANY of this is necessarily bad. The only point I wanted to make is that immigration from predominantly non-Christian countries is running faster than the traditional churches in countries like Britain are growing.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
He and others were liberal for their time, today they'd be considered quite conservative.

Only because the definitions of liberal and conservative have changed...

[nath]

Originally posted by RonnieoftheRose:
One of the most stupid posts ever made on the internet and by a no less than a moderator.

Hardly. Some muslims in France for example, would claim that their religion is already being banned, in schools. Whilst I agree with that policy, they have a point.

[Busemann]

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
Frankly, I have mixed feelings about the decline or religion. Christianity may not have been perfect, but the greatest tragedies of modern history have been perpetrated under the banner of atheism and nordic neo-paganism: the holocaust, stalinist purges, ethnic cleansing, etc.

not quite true