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subego
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Feb 29, 2016, 07:50 PM
 
It's the Lounge's favorite kind of thread!

Have a friend. She's got about $8-$12K to spend on a car.

She likes the Golf GTI she's driven, and she says she's "heard good things about Mazdas".

I'm sure no one has an opinion.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Feb 29, 2016, 09:59 PM
 
She should make a quick list of all the cars that she can afford. Include used cars that are ideally either no more than 2-3 years old, or else have at least a year or two on their factory warranty - assuming she has little interest in an older ride with more potential issues.

Then she has to drive them. All of them. It'll take a few weekends and she should not stop midway when she inevitably finds one that feels right. Go on to the end, and then make her decision. It's really the best way to do it!

Otherwise, we'll need to know more about what she's valuing. At that price, a Mazda3? I'm not a fan but they're okay. The GTI is a nice little car.
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 29, 2016, 10:24 PM
 
She's definitely going to buy used.

She likes the Golf because it's "sporty"

Is going more than 2-3 years just dumb?

I'm definitely going to push her towards test driving stuff, but I thought rather than consider every make within that range, maybe narrow it down a bit.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 29, 2016, 10:30 PM
 
Hard to go wrong with a GTI. Maybe also check out a Golf R, if you can find one. Sounds like an enthusiast? Maybe look into an older E46 Bimmer, they're a great value now. One of my shop guys recently bought a sharp little 02' M3 with <100k miles for $8,500.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 29, 2016, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
She's definitely going to buy used.

She likes the Golf because it's "sporty"

Is going more than 2-3 years just dumb?
No. As long as it's properly serviced. I've seen 3 y/o cars that are falling apart (like a friend's Fiat 500) and 20 y/o cars that are as tight as new.
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subego  (op)
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Feb 29, 2016, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Hard to go wrong with a GTI. Maybe also check out a Golf R, if you can find one. Sounds like an enthusiast? Maybe look into an older E46 Bimmer, they're a great value now. One of my shop guys recently bought a sharp little 02' M3 with <100k miles for $8,500.
Would she get killed on repairs with that?

I mean, not whether a car with 100K miles has lots of repairs, but whether repairs on an old BMW are anything like the cost of repairs on the newer ones?

She'd shit a brick if she could get a BMW, but I'm worried she's not quite financially stable enough yet. That may have to be the next car.

Also, unfortunately, M3s from the early 2000's seem to be in the $15 range around here.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 29, 2016, 11:13 PM
 
Killed on repairs? No more than a GTI. The E46 platform was very robust, just take care of service and it's GTG. A 330CI ZHP from that era is also a good find. It's kind of like a baby M3, most of the M-sport goodies but with less power. This looks okay too: Used BMW 3 Series For Sale Chicago, IL - CarGurus
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subego  (op)
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Feb 29, 2016, 11:21 PM
 
That's a hell of a listing right there. She should definitely take a look! Thanks!

Edit: and yes... she drives a stick.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 29, 2016, 11:27 PM
 
and this one: Used BMW 3 Series For Sale Chicago, IL - CarGurus

Those appear to be the best of the lot near you.
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subego  (op)
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Feb 29, 2016, 11:27 PM
 
She's flipping out over that listing.

The exact quote was

"😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍"
     
mindwaves
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Feb 29, 2016, 11:28 PM
 
Used Honda Civic. The end.
{{{ mindwaves }}}
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 29, 2016, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Used Honda Civic. The end.
Booooooring
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subego  (op)
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Feb 29, 2016, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Used Honda Civic. The end.
Good luck with that now.
     
Paco500
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:33 AM
 
A BMW with those kind of miles, regardless of how well maintained, it going to start costing a good deal of money very soon- even if you are using non-oem parts and going to an independent garage.

BMWs are great fun to drive and are feel great just sitting in them, but I would never own one out of warranty again.

Of course your (her) milage may vary, but I speak from a good deal of experience on owning high-mile BMWs. I've had two, both of which ended up being sold for scrap because the cost of repairs was a good deal more than the value of the car- not for accident repair or misuse, but for age and mile related issues.

I am now driving a '14 520d and I love it, but it will not be hanging around past warranty expiration.
     
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:51 AM
 
It's hard to argue with a sample size of 2, I guess. A BMW isn't "high miles" until it reaches 150K, as long as you keep up with service they're fine (definitely no worse than a GTI). The problem is that people don't, even though they claim they do.

A manual E46 is something every car enthusiast should own, at least once in their life, especially the M3s early in that series (I currently have a coupe and a cabrio and have had more than a dozen over the years). They're some of the best sub-$100k driver's cars ever built.
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subego  (op)
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Mar 1, 2016, 03:09 AM
 
What does "keeping up with service" actually entail on a car of that age?
     
Laminar
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Mar 1, 2016, 08:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
One of my shop guys recently bought a sharp little 02' M3 with <100k miles for $8,500.
A two foot M3?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Would she get killed on repairs with that?
Yes. Everything costs more. E. V. E. R. Y. T. H. I. N. G. At least compared to an American or Japanese car.

Also, unfortunately, M3s from the early 2000's seem to be in the $15 range around here.
Yes, that's the typical price range for a decent E46 M3. $8500 is a huuuuge outlier, and is in no way typical.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's hard to argue with a sample size of 2, I guess.
Says the king of anecdotes (and the guy who mentioned an $8500 E46 M3).

A BMW isn't "high miles" until it reaches 150K, as long as you keep up with service they're fine (definitely no worse than a GTI). The problem is that people don't, even though they claim they do.
Cooling systems, window regulators, subframe tearing, fuel pumps, climate control/electrical, suspension are all stuff that fails before or around 100k on E46s that lasts much longer on basically every other car. Now take what the parts should cost x 1.5 and what the labor should cost x 1.5 and the time it should take x 2 and that's what you'll pay someone else to fix it.

"It's my only car and I'm on a budget." Don't go for a ****ing 15 year old high end German car, that's stupid.

They're some of the best sub-$100k driver's cars ever built.
And the E36 M3 actually beat out the Corvette, Viper, F355, NSX-T, Supra, 911 Carrera S and more to win "Best Handling Car at Any Price" back in '97.

Wouldn't be a MacNN car thread without vehement arguing, right?
     
BadKosh
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Mar 1, 2016, 09:33 AM
 
I'm driving a 2004 Jetta Wagon with the 1.8 Turdbo that has just shy of 200K miles on it driving around the Washington DC area. I've been driving VW's since 1982. Best was a 1983 Rabbit GTI (Get There Immediately) that was somewhat tricked out.
     
Laminar
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Mar 1, 2016, 10:36 AM
 
TrueDelta.com for reliability info.

Edmunds True-Cost-to-Own for info on maintenance and depreciation costs.

Ignore anecdotes. "I've had good luck with...", "I really love my...", "I had a terrible time with..." statements are worthless.
     
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Mar 1, 2016, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post

Yes. Everything costs more. E. V. E. R. Y. T. H. I. N. G. At least compared to an American or Japanese car.
He was talking about a GTI, which is German (if you didn't know).

Yes, that's the typical price range for a decent E46 M3. $8500 is a huuuuge outlier, and is in no way typical.
No, it's actually on the low end of KBB.

Says the king of anecdotes (and the guy who mentioned an $8500 E46 M3).
Are you high?

Cooling systems, window regulators, subframe tearing, fuel pumps, climate control/electrical, suspension are all stuff that fails before or around 100k on E46s that lasts much longer on basically every other car. Now take what the parts should cost x 1.5 and what the labor should cost x 1.5 and the time it should take x 2 and that's what you'll pay someone else to fix it.
Compared to a VW GTI? Untrue, shockingly untrue. You're often a bully but not typically a liar. You must be high.
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Mar 1, 2016, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Edmunds True-Cost-to-Own for info on maintenance and depreciation costs.

Ignore anecdotes. "I've had good luck with...", "I really love my...", "I had a terrible time with..." statements are worthless.
Sites that only go back to ~2011 are pretty worthless too, if you're shopping around $8-10k, fool.
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Laminar
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Mar 1, 2016, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
He was talking about a GTI, which is German (if you didn't know).
I was talking about a BMW compared to the ideal scenario.

No, it's actually on the low end of KBB.
Show me a typical car that qualifies for the low end of KBB and I'll show you a high mileage SMG beat-to-shit custom airbrushed POS that's going to need $5000 in repairs to get road worthy. Any well-maintained 6-speed manual in good shape will cost far more than $12k.

Are you high?
Resotring to personal attacks so soon?

Compared to a VW GTI?
Nope, try to keep up.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Sites that only go back to ~2011 are pretty worthless too, if you're shopping around $8-10k, fool.
If you're on a budget, can't work on your own car, need something reliable, and can spend up to $12k, why wouldn't you get something <5yrs old?
     
BadKosh
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:05 PM
 
How costly a car gets as it ages is important. Going back to 2011 IS WORTHLESS! My 1982 Jetta had NO ISSUES until 1988. My 1995 Jetta bought used had few issues until 2004, at 147K miles.
     
Laminar
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Ignore anecdotes. "I've had good luck with...", "I really love my...", "I had a terrible time with..." statements are worthless.
...
     
Thorzdad
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:42 PM
 
What year of GTI did she drive? If it was a Mk IV (2004 or earlier) I'd have to vote "no" on that. They're nice cars, to be sure, but they have a lot more reliability issues than other cars in that class. I've yet to meet a MkIV owner that isn't always chasing a gremlin of some sort with their car.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:44 PM
 
Definitely a recent model.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I was talking about a BMW compared to the ideal scenario.
He said she wanted a GTI, did you see that?

Show me a typical car that qualifies for the low end of KBB and I'll show you a high mileage SMG beat-to-shit custom airbrushed POS that's going to need $5000 in repairs to get road worthy. Any well-maintained 6-speed manual in good shape will cost far more than $12k.
Not anymore. Get with the times, it's 2016.

Resotring to personal attacks so soon?
I'm, not "Resotring" to anything. Put down the bong.

Nope, try to keep up.


If you're on a budget, can't work on your own car, need something reliable, and can spend up to $12k, why wouldn't you get something <5yrs old?
Age doesn't matter nearly as much as mileage and service record, 5+ y/o cars are where you'll find the best values. I can't seem to find a 5 y/o GTI for <$12k anywhere, so it stands to reason she's been looking for a car that's older than that. If that's the case, and it certainly seems like it is, a well-maintained, low-mileage E46 is a nice car (very fun to drive, too) and at least as reliable as a 5th or 6th gen GTI, if not more.
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andi*pandi
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:46 PM
 
for sporty + reliable, Subaru Impreza.

</predictable>
     
Laminar
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Not anymore. Get with the times, it's 2016.
"Car isn't perfect"

Thanks for proving my point.
     
Laminar
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
for sporty + reliable, Subaru Impreza.

</predictable>
For the past 9 years, you'd be better off with a Mazda3.
     
Laminar
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Mar 1, 2016, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
He said she wanted a GTI, did you see that?
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Hard to go wrong with a GTI. Maybe also check out a Golf R, if you can find one. Sounds like an enthusiast? Maybe look into an older E46 Bimmer, they're a great value now. One of my shop guys recently bought a sharp little 02' M3 with <100k miles for $8,500.
Would she get killed on repairs with that?

I mean, not whether a car with 100K miles has lots of repairs, but whether repairs on an old BMW are anything like the cost of repairs on the newer ones?

She'd shit a brick if she could get a BMW, but I'm worried she's not quite financially stable enough yet. That may have to be the next car.

Also, unfortunately, M3s from the early 2000's seem to be in the $15 range around here.
The question was clearly on whether or not an old BMW would be expensive to repair. Again, please try and keep up.
     
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
What year of GTI did she drive? If it was a Mk IV (2004 or earlier) I'd have to vote "no" on that. They're nice cars, to be sure, but they have a lot more reliability issues than other cars in that class. I've yet to meet a MkIV owner that isn't always chasing a gremlin of some sort with their car.
Indeed, they're great fun, but you might as well buy an old Boxster* for the amount you'll pay in repairs and service. Same goes for the Mk5.


(Okay, that's an exaggeration, but not by much.)
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
"Car isn't perfect"

Thanks for proving my point.
No used car is perfect.
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
The question was clearly on whether or not an old BMW would be expensive to repair. Again, please try and keep up.
and one that has low miles and was well-maintained won't be, especially not compared to a used GTI. Lay off the cannabis.
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
For the past 9 years, you'd be better off with a Mazda3.
Boooooooring. (Though the MazdaSpeed3 is fun.)
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and one that has low miles and was well-maintained won't be, especially not compared to a used GTI.
Says you, not data. Try and stick with me here, you're falling behind.
     
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Boooooooring. (Though the MazdaSpeed3 is fun.)
For someone on a budget looking for a single car to own, boring is a wonderful thing.

For $12k you can get a great 3 with 20,000 miles and some factory warranty remaining. As far as small cars go, they're great to drive and they won't murder you with breakdowns and repair costs.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Ignore anecdotes. "I've had good luck with...", "I really love my...", "I had a terrible time with..." statements are worthless.
Can I say I really love my Promaster?
     
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
*puff* *puff* *pass*
Riiiight. You mean the data that we can't find because the site doesn't go back far enough? And the other site you provided? Going by "smiley face" ratio, the MkV and E46 are the same.

Volkswagen Golf / Rabbit / GTI Reliability
BMW 3-Series Reliability

Anything else, or have you run out of arguments (and dope)?
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
For someone on a budget looking for a single car to own, boring is a wonderful thing.

For $12k you can get a great 3 with 20,000 miles and some factory warranty remaining. As far as small cars go, they're great to drive and they won't murder you with breakdowns and repair costs.
If you hate driving, I guess it would be.
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Mar 1, 2016, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Can I say I really love my Promaster?
Subjective responses about driving and ownership experience are useful. Subjective responses about statistical probability are not.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Riiiight. You mean the data that we can't find because the site doesn't go back far enough?
Why do you need data from before a car was made? Non-gearhead on a budget looking for a single car to be economical and reliable. Why would you recommend anything older than 5 years? Terrible.

Anything else, or have you run out of arguments (and dope)?
Why would I need more arguments? You haven't even been able to keep up with those I've given so far.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
If you hate driving, I guess it would be.
What does this have to do with me? We're not looking for a car for me. Try and keep up.
     
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Mar 1, 2016, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
*Ignorant twaddle*
I guess you missed where he said she enjoys driving. Hell, she even prefers a manual, placing her in the top 20% of most dedicated auto enthusiasts.

Why would I need more arguments? You haven't even been able to keep up with those I've given so far.
That stuff has really blunted your awareness.

What does this have to do with me? We're not looking for a car for me. Try and keep up.
You've never even started, and by that statement are too baked to even understand that.
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Mar 1, 2016, 03:26 PM
 
Man, you're really falling behind, try and follow the conversation.
     
Laminar
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Mar 1, 2016, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Hell, she even prefers a manual,
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit: and yes... she drives a stick.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 1, 2016, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
*herpa derp derp*
and that's why you don't drink the bong water, kids. Sad.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 1, 2016, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
That's no way to go through life, sport.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Mar 1, 2016, 04:28 PM
 
Even your gif game is streets behind. Keep up, dude.
     
andi*pandi
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Mar 1, 2016, 04:42 PM
 
Who needs Rob?

     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 1, 2016, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
BRAAAAPP!
You're too stoned to realize that I've already lapped you twice, hoser.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Mar 1, 2016, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Who needs Rob?
I didn't recommend buying a 1992 Honda or giving a '95 Audi a $5000 paintjob.
     
 
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