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WWDC 2017 comments
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And.reg
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Jun 5, 2017, 03:31 PM
 
Pretty sure my lower jaw hung while Apple introduced the new iMacs...

Anyway, discuss.
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subego
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Jun 5, 2017, 04:36 PM
 
Was that today? I thought it was tomorrow for some reason.

Whoops.


Edit: as an AirPlay person, AirPlay 2 could be cool.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 5, 2017, 04:40 PM
 
ya mean this?
https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/

Putting in request for one now.
     
subego
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Jun 5, 2017, 04:58 PM
 
Unfortunately, my iMac is about 6 months old.
     
reader50
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:29 PM
 
I want more info on the APFS implementation. In particular, can per-file check summing be activated? That was the main gap in data protection when APFS was announced. Such hashing would be prohibitive on watchOS and probably little needed on iOS. But I want my macOS files protected, not just the directory tree.

Also, can High Sierra be booted from HFS+, or is Apple forcing APFS-only booting? For compatibility reasons, I want to see at least one OS be dual-bootable.

Sounds like it will be macOS 10.13 rather than macOS 11.0
     
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:37 PM
 
iMacs: there is still a base model without Retina, but at least it is really cheap now, and the base Retina model is also looking attractive. I wish they'd make Fusion Drives standard, but OK, not too bad. Not info on what those GPUs actually are, but I am going to guess that the 21.5" gets some variant of Polaris 11 (aka Radeon 460/560, aka what is in the 15" MBP) while the 27" has some variant of Polaris 10 (aka Radeon 570/580). This is a straight upgrade of what was, but it is an upgrade to a decent midrange chip.

MacBook: Kaby Lake CPU means more here than anywhere else, and they seemingly get the keyboard from the MBP, but nothing Earth-shattering.

MBP: Kaby Lake, but most importantly there is $1299 model again. No cheaper 15", though.

IMac Pro: Intel's Skylake-X platform in an iMac. That... is actually a bit enticing, even if Intel only made those chips because AMD finally got Ryzen out (Intel makes three variants of the Xeon chips, LCC, HCC and XCC, and usually only makes the LCC chips available on the desktop. Now AMD scared them so they have announced that the HCC chips are coming as well, which is why we can get 18 cores). My only worry is the fan noise when running those things flat out. There is a very really difference between having the fan nose under your desk and having it in your face. Or is there a CLLC?

But no new Mac mini, no more ports on the MBP or MacBook. Can't get everything.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I want more info on the APFS implementation. In particular, can per-file check summing be activated? That was the main gap in data protection when APFS was announced. Such hashing would be prohibitive on watchOS and probably little needed on iOS. But I want my macOS files protected, not just the directory tree.

Also, can High Sierra be booted from HFS+, or is Apple forcing APFS-only booting? For compatibility reasons, I want to see at least one OS be dual-bootable.

Sounds like it will be macOS 10.13 rather than macOS 11.0
State of the union is this afternoon, I think, and details like this will leak soon after.

I am sure that there is booting support from HFS+ - why make the effort to remove it when UFS booting is still there as an option? - but full data checksumming is less clear. For one that thing Apple had solid arguments for why they didn't bother in the first version (basically, that they have more reliability data than we do) and for another there is the question of to react in the event of a failure. Do you tell the user to please find a backup? That is not the "it just works" attitude Apple is known for.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
reader50
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
... and for another there is the question of {how} to react in the event of a failure. Do you tell the user to please find a backup? That is not the "it just works" attitude Apple is known for.
I expect the default behavior would be to silently log, and if a TM backup is online, to silently fix the damaged file. No doubt with a hidden Developer mode that does offer dialog choices. The user might see a dialog if they decided to open a damaged file. I would certainly want to be notified, before I edit and save damage.
     
Chongo
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Jun 5, 2017, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unfortunately, my iMac is about 6 months old.
My iMac is a 27" late 2013. It look like it has a "6th generation i7 Intel processor" (Processor Name:Intel Core i7, Processor, Speed:3.5 GHz) so it should be able to play the new video codec.
As far as VR being supported on the newest Macs "or any supported Mac paired with an external GPU" does the 2013 qualify since it has a separate GPU? (NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M 4096 MB)
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Jun 5, 2017, 06:13 PM
 
My iMac is a 27" mid-2011. It'll hang in there for at least another year, but I'm concerned about the iMac no longer being supported, and as a dev I can't afford to lose the ability to...y'know...do my job

I don't like how Apple creates a hard connection between Xcode and the OS, so if the Mac is too old, you can't build? Seems lame to me.

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Doc HM
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Jun 5, 2017, 06:23 PM
 
So is the Mac Pro dead enough yet?
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mindwaves
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Jun 5, 2017, 08:08 PM
 
Siri is supposed to get smarter and Apple Maps finally (and yes, FINALLY) has lane guidance. The new mall mapping feature should be useful for the malls and airports that I do visit (they are supported).
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mindwaves
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Jun 5, 2017, 08:12 PM
 
Apple Pay with iMessage sounds nice. I may be using this.

A big surprise is that AMD is being used as the GPU for the new iMacs. Good news for AMD.
( Last edited by mindwaves; Jun 5, 2017 at 08:28 PM. )
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subego
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Jun 5, 2017, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Siri is supposed to get smarter and Apple Maps finally (and yes, FINALLY) has lane guidance. The new mall mapping feature should be useful for the malls and airports that I do visit (they are supported).
Aren't you in/near LA? I highly recommend kicking Maps to the curb and using Waze.
     
mindwaves
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Jun 6, 2017, 12:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Aren't you in/near LA? I highly recommend kicking Maps to the curb and using Waze.
Yes, I am, but I'm also overseas a lot. I heard that Waze always tracks your location even when you are not using the app. There is no option in the Privacy settings to "Track only when using the app," as far as I know. That is what I've been told. True?
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Jun 6, 2017, 03:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
ya mean this?
https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/

Putting in request for one now.
How much do they like you? I saw projections of $3500-5000 for the Pro.
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Jun 6, 2017, 04:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
My iMac is a 27" late 2013. It look like it has a "6th generation i7 Intel processor" (Processor Name:Intel Core i7, Processor, Speed:3.5 GHz) so it should be able to play the new video codec.
As far as VR being supported on the newest Macs "or any supported Mac paired with an external GPU" does the 2013 qualify since it has a separate GPU? (NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M 4096 MB)
The new video codec is H.265, I believe (did not watch the keynote, I am on vacation with poor network access), which will render on anything but may not get as much assistance from the GPU as it does on the iOS devices. Doesn't really matter on a desktop, it will just run the fans a bit harder.

As for VR: on Windows, the minimum GPU at launch was the GeForce 970 or Radeon 290. Either of these will destroy a 780M without breaking a sweat. "Polaris 10", what I think is in the 27" iMac, is almost the same performance as a Radeon 290, so I think that you need a new 27" iMac or an external Thunderbolt GPU that qualifies.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
mindwaves
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Jun 6, 2017, 04:33 AM
 
Don't care much for VR, but for AR, that demo where the little guys were battling on the table was nice. I would pay for an Age of Empires type of AR game that I can play on my living room table. Assemble archers at point A and have them battle calvary at point B. I don't like seeing dragons or monsters. I like more historical weapons.
( Last edited by mindwaves; Jun 6, 2017 at 04:47 AM. )
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Jun 6, 2017, 04:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Apple Pay with iMessage sounds nice. I may be using this.

A big surprise is that AMD is being used as the GPU for the new iMacs. Good news for AMD.
Apple has used AMD in iMacs and MBPs for some time now. Usually Apple mixes it up, but I think nVidia is still in the doghouse over its patent trolling.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 6, 2017, 05:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
How much do they like you? I saw projections of $3500-5000 for the Pro.
It will not be cheap. The top iMac is $2300, and on top of that we have upgrade GPU and CPU. We don't know what Vega will cost in consumer versions, but it is at least $300 more than the current GPU. A middling Xeon E5 will be at least $700 more than the current CPU. That is $1000 before we get to the chipset, and then there is minor thing of the gross margin.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2017, 07:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Yes, I am, but I'm also overseas a lot. I heard that Waze always tracks your location even when you are not using the app. There is no option in the Privacy settings to "Track only when using the app," as far as I know. That is what I've been told. True?
They offer a way in the app to put it to sleep, but there's no automatic function.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 6, 2017, 09:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
How much do they like you? I saw projections of $3500-5000 for the Pro.
weeeellll... we are coming up on the 3 year cycle of upgrading, so they will be getting us SOMETHING. I will make the case that the Pro will last longer. The imacs we have now are weaksauce.
     
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Jun 6, 2017, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
How much do they like you? I saw projections of $3500-5000 for the Pro.
They announced a starting price of $5,000.

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Jun 6, 2017, 11:25 AM
 
ah well, they don't like me THAT much.
     
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Jun 6, 2017, 03:46 PM
 
Makes you wonder what the 18-core, 128GB RAM, 4TB SSD and 16GB VRAM version is gonna cost though doesn't it?

Over $10k?
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reader50
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Jun 6, 2017, 03:59 PM
 
A concern about the iMac Pro. Check the Ars article and flip through the pictures. There's no sign of the RAM access door used for upgrades. While it's got lots of ports, upgrades for memory or storage imply the case has to be cracked open. Assuming everything isn't soldered down.
     
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Jun 6, 2017, 04:15 PM
 
The Xeons that Apple seem to be using here have six memory channels, and you're fairly limited in where you put the slots as well (for signalling reasons). I think they'd have to include a way to remove the entire back, similar to the old iMac G5, to enable upgrades.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 6, 2017, 04:17 PM
 
So do the 13" pros now have full-speed TB3 on both sides?

16 lanes, no? So it should be four for the graphics, and four for either side, plus some to spare?
     
ort888
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Jun 6, 2017, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
A concern about the iMac Pro. Check the Ars article and flip through the pictures. There's no sign of the RAM access door used for upgrades. While it's got lots of ports, upgrades for memory or storage imply the case has to be cracked open. Assuming everything isn't soldered down.
Sadly, the RAM is not user upgradable on the upcoming pro iMac.

What is weird is that the RAM is upgradable on the new "regular" 27" iMacs that they just put out.

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Jun 6, 2017, 06:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Sadly, the RAM is not user upgradable on the upcoming pro iMac.

What is weird is that the RAM is upgradable on the new "regular" 27" iMacs that they just put out.
According to the internal picture of the iMac Pro (which may or may not be made up as the actual machine isn't out until December) the RAM isn't laptop RAM in the centre as on the regular 27" iMac, its desktop RAM, to the left, between the left fan and the ports (unless I'm reading the picture wrong and those are SSD storage or something else.



But there's no door on the back of the case in that position either. Again, its a long time until December and the production version might have a door, or maybe a RAM upgrade is a glass out and in through the front job?

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Jun 6, 2017, 06:39 PM
 
I'm most excited about APFS.

Anybody install the developer build and notice a difference?
     
starman
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Jun 6, 2017, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Sadly, the RAM is not user upgradable on the upcoming pro iMac.

What is weird is that the RAM is upgradable on the new "regular" 27" iMacs that they just put out.
How so? I looked and couldn't find anything definitive about that.

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Jun 6, 2017, 08:27 PM
 
I read it somewhere. Sorry, I can't recall where. A journalist probably asked an apple rep at the hands on area or something.

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And.reg  (op)
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Jun 6, 2017, 08:44 PM
 
I worry that it's gonna overheat, or throttle after some long load. How is Apple going to overcome the thermal challenges involved, maintain the high-demand intensity for consistent graphics for potentially hours on end, and not blow a solder connection or warp the display backing after a few months, without significant throttling to keep components from overheating?
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Jun 6, 2017, 10:09 PM
 
Lots of people concerned about the heat. Seems reasonable given Apple's tendencies of late to release machines with inadequate cooling to live long and happy lives.

I too assumed those four slots were the RAM and therefore upgradeable though Apple has confirmed otherwise. Maybe they just aren't user accessible. It has to be desktop RAM I guess, what laptop uses ECC?
Looks like the SSDs are in the centre at the bottom of the image. Could be one either side that are swappable same form factor as some other Macs. I guess the big card on the right of the image is the GPU.
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Jun 6, 2017, 10:43 PM
 
Also, a tidbit of information that was announced in the days before the WWDC keynote is that Swift Playgrounds will now support control of Lego Mindstorms and robots such as built by UBtech. I got a Lego Mindstorms now for this purpose. I'm playing around with Swift Playgrounds. I'm not a coder by any stretch of the means, but got it as a hobby, nothing else.
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Jun 7, 2017, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
So do the 13" pros now have full-speed TB3 on both sides?

16 lanes, no? So it should be four for the graphics, and four for either side, plus some to spare?
Not how it works. The two-chip platform, i.e. the desktops and the quadcore laptop chips, have 16 lanes from the CPU (intended for the GPU) and a further 4 to the PCH, what used to be called the southbridge. From the PCH there are USB ports, SATA, networking and many more PCIe lanes, depending on the exact config, but they all share 4 lanes to the CPU. On the single chip platform - dual core laptop chips - the 16 lanes from the CPU are completely gone. There are still effectively 4 to the PCH, which is part of the same package as the CPU, and from there we have different amounts of lanes and connections just like the PCH on the motherboard for the desktop chips.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9582/i...ure-analysis/4

Right. So what did Apple do? For the 15" it is simple: 8 lanes from the CPU to the GPU, 4 from the CPU to each Thunderbolt controller (there are 2, one for each side, and each supplies two ports) and 4 lanes from the PCH to the storage. Exactly how Apple connected up the rest is not clear, but likely there is at least one lane from the PCH to the network chip, and all the rest uses the USB connections from the PCH. For the 13" it becomes harder, because you no longer have the CPU lanes - you only have 12 lanes from the PCH. 4 go to storage, 4 go to the first TB controller, and then you only have 4 left. Either Apple shares these between the second TB controller and the networking hardware, or it starves the second controller by only giving it two lanes. Doing the latter is obviously easier, and probably what they did

And no, Kaby Lake does not change the number of PCIe lanes. I really don't think it matters, because the whole shebang is stuck behind the same 4 lanes from the CPU to the PCH, and the entire world was stuck behind 2 such lanes on every Intel Mac before this one. TB3 is simply the first time that the external interface is fast enough for this to matter.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 7, 2017, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I too assumed those four slots were the RAM and therefore upgradeable though Apple has confirmed otherwise. Maybe they just aren't user accessible. It has to be desktop RAM I guess, what laptop uses ECC?.
Very few, but "laptop" SO-DIMMs are actually very popular in microservers and blade servers, so there are ECC SO-DIMMs available. Those are not SO-DIMMs in the image, though.

Bottom right has a card that looks to be about an MXM that has heat pipes running to it. That is likely the GPU.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 7, 2017, 01:04 PM
 
An MXM-mounted GPU is very good news. I didn't say anything earlier, but a -pro machine costing $5,000 should have upgradable graphics. Requiring an external chassis is silly when you've reached this price point.

Assuming the MXM card is accurate, and we can see the RAM is slotted, plus generous ports ... the only missing piece is upgradable storage. I don't see a drive bay, that would be too much to ask. But two SSD slots would be encouraging, so you don't have to toss existing storage every time you upgrade. A slot that will accept standard M.2 sticks (in addition to Apple's proprietary sticks) is about the most we could hope for.
     
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Jun 7, 2017, 01:23 PM
 
As always, Apple jacks up their RAM prices. $600 extra for 32 GB of RAM on the new iMacs, it's less than half that in retail. If someone can get a definitive answer about upgradable RAM, that would be awesome. Thanks.

EDIT: Apple finally put it on their web site.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201191
( Last edited by starman; Jun 7, 2017 at 01:40 PM. )

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Jun 7, 2017, 01:55 PM
 
https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-...y-accessories/

Here's the article saying the iMac Pro RAM is not user-upgradable. It's not speculation, but comes from an Apple rep.

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starman
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Jun 7, 2017, 02:00 PM
 
Ok, so the iMac for mortals is upgradable

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Jun 7, 2017, 02:01 PM
 
21" iMac = No
27" iMac = Yes
iMac Pro = No

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ort888
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Jun 7, 2017, 02:06 PM
 
I'm annoyed that Apple keeps slowly raising prices.

I know they cut the prices of a few low end MacBook Pros... (to what they should have been from the start)

But the iPad Pro starts at $650?

They upped the processor in the 12" MacBook, but you have to upgrade to the $1,599 model to actually get the upgrade?

I know this is nothing new, but it felt like prices were sorta coming down for a while.

Remember when you could get a decent low-end pro tower for $1,600 bucks? And it didn't totally suck?

Now the only way to get a "budget" Mac is to get one of previous models that still sell for basically what they sold for 3-5 years ago.

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Jun 7, 2017, 02:30 PM
 
Remember when you needed the entry-level tower to do the kinds of tasks now easily handled by an iMac?
     
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Jun 7, 2017, 03:32 PM
 
I remember when you needed massive tower to match what you can do with a $35 credit card computer today.

(Seriously:Raspberry Pi and the default Raspbian OS install absolutely crushes what you could do with even a powerful computer in say -97 or so, and you could cherry-pick benches to make it win over a ten year old computer.)

In general, Apple is not moving prices on established lines up. The iMac is almost as low as it ever was - the G3 model was lower, but no model since has been this low - and the MBP seems to moving back to where it was. They did keep the MBA around to keep a laptop in that price range, disgusting display or no, and the regular 10" iPad just got a big price drop. They are not unaware of price, even as they're reacting to the critique from pros and trying to stretch their lines to meet that without dropping gross margins. The 10" iPad Pro is the exception, but I think that may just have debuted too low.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
And.reg  (op)
The Mighty
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Well the sports issue was within arm's reach but they closed up shop and kicked me out. And I'm out of toilet paper.
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Jun 7, 2017, 05:03 PM
 
Why did Apple put the HomePod speakers on the bottom (where you get more phase interference from surface reflectivity) and the woofer on the top? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
21" iMac = No
27" iMac = Yes
iMac Pro = No
So then it may be best to start the 27" with 16 GB RAM and upgrade later...?
This one time, at Boot Camp, I stuck a flute up my PC.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 7, 2017, 06:04 PM
 
So has anybody found out whether the 13" MBP still has hobbled Thunderbolt ports, or are they all full-speed now?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
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Jun 7, 2017, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
They announced a starting price of $5,000.
Considering it's ~$3300 in parts, at retail, that's quite a margin.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
starman
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Jun 7, 2017, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Considering it's ~$3300 in parts, at retail, that's quite a margin.
I guess you have to put the parts together yourself, right?

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