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Unbelievable!!! Murder or Self Defense?
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arrested502
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Sep 12, 2002, 04:03 PM
 
Would this be anything but self defense in the USA?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...11040,00.html/
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Sep 12, 2002, 04:07 PM
 
The prosecution claimed that Hastings had overstepped the mark and �meted out his own form of punishment� when he stabbed Williams 12 times, mostly in the back.
12 times, mostly in the back? Yeah, that was self-defense.
     
denim
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Sep 12, 2002, 04:11 PM
 
Sad story. Just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished.
Is this a good place for an argument?
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Korv
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Sep 12, 2002, 04:17 PM
 
Local laws vary in the US. In texas you have the RIGHT to use lethal force in defending your home. No charges. Most places the verdict proably would have been the same. This guy wouldn't get convicted of murder, but would probably have to face manslaughter charges, pleabargained down, and helped by an understanding judge, to very little jail time. Fact is, if he stabs him once, no problem... 12 times in the back... that's too much. He will (probaly) get charged and (probaly) do time even in the US.
     
Captain Obvious
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Sep 12, 2002, 04:18 PM
 
Umm here are three key points:

No machete was found, but the court was told that Hastings may have mistaken a jemmy that Williams was carrying that he had used to force entry to the home.
He was armed.

A struggle ensued during which Williams was repeatedly stabbed. Hastings suffered a hand injury. After the fight spilled outside, Williams staggered away.
There was a struggle it wasn't a one sided attack.

The jury of six men and six women found Hastings guilty of manslaughter on a 10-2 majority verdict after 13 hours of deliberation.
Here he wouldnt have been convicted. It was a hung jury.

It would have been different if he had been shot with a gun and also it depends on the laws of the state it would have happened in.

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Millennium
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Sep 12, 2002, 04:40 PM
 
I'd call this legitimate self-defense myself. If the story the guy gives rings true, of course.

But something in his story doesn't smell right. From the look of it, he didn't just walk into his home to find a burglar in there; he'd been there when the burglar came in. But he didn't know that his own family was at home? That sounds a bit suspicious to me.

If he's telling the truth, then yeah, clear self-defense. But I'd certainly check his story out first, before I said that.
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macvillage.net
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Sep 12, 2002, 06:50 PM
 
As long as you only kill on your own property, and gave warning ahead of time... It should be legal!


I believe it's my right to ax a Door to Door salesman for stepping on my property.


Seriously. Don't like it, skip my house!
     
zigzag
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Sep 12, 2002, 08:42 PM
 
The general rule in the U.S. is the same as in Britain: you're entitled to use reasonable force to defend yourself and your home, but no more than that. It's up to the jury to decide what "reasonable" is under the facts of each case. In this case, they obviously didn't believe the defendant's whole story and therefore thought he was guilty of, ahem, overkill.

Of course, the law differs in each state and there may be some, like Texas, that specifically allow the use of deadly force to protect one's home.

The old saw is that if you kill someone, try to drag some part of their body over the threshold before the police get there so you can argue that they were trying to get into your house.
     
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Sep 12, 2002, 08:52 PM
 
[double post - I keep getting error messages from MacnNN]
     
L'enfanTerrible
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Sep 12, 2002, 09:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
I'd call this legitimate self-defense myself. If the story the guy gives rings true, of course.

But something in his story doesn't smell right. From the look of it, he didn't just walk into his home to find a burglar in there; he'd been there when the burglar came in. But he didn't know that his own family was at home? That sounds a bit suspicious to me.

If he's telling the truth, then yeah, clear self-defense. But I'd certainly check his story out first, before I said that.
Actually Mill, he wasn't home. He said he arrived home to find his door had been forced open..

My opinion: this reminds me of the movie ConAir, where Nick Cage goes to jail for defending himself. I don't think this is a fair case, because of the reasons Cptn. Obvious already pointed out.

Perhaps the man was using excessive force, but no one knows what might have happened had he simply phoned the police, and left the man upstairs. What if the family had been there, and been taken hostage? I can't bare the thought of those kids getting hurt.
     
jcadam
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Sep 12, 2002, 09:38 PM
 
hmmm.... seems the jury was more empathetic toward the career criminal than to the victim.

If I believed that the lives of my family were in danger I would have killed the guy too. Even if he gave up and tried to flee. Who knows? He may have come back better armed.

A story was related to me a few weeks ago about the importance the police place on defending citizens (or their property):

Guy gets home from work after dark. Looks out window into backyard and sees two guys in his shed removing stuff.

Calls police
Guy: "There's two guys breaking into my shed stealing stuff"
Police: "Sorry, we have no available units right now."

Guy hangs up. Thinks for a minute. Calls back
Guy: "It's me again (identifies himself, etc.) You remember those two guys that were in my shed? Don't worry about it. I shot them both."

Several minutes later half-a-dozen police cars pull up. The cops catch the two burgulars and arrest them.
Cops: "I thought you said you shot these two guys"
Guy: "I thought you said you had noone available."

meh. Anyways, the police aren't here to protect people. They are here to investigate crimes after the fact. You are responsible for your own protection, so arm yourself.
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malson
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Sep 12, 2002, 09:48 PM
 
Read at the top of the story, "...his estranged wife Nicola..." So, this wasn't this guy's house. The reason he didn't know that his family wasn't at home was because he didn't live there. Now, I do think it was self-defense when the bad guy came charging down the steps. He was stabbed and that was fair. Now, after the fight "spills out into the yard," that's going a bit far. Beat the guy while he's in the house. Remember, you're protecting your property and want the guy out. If he tramples on your grass, so what?

So, was it his house to defend? Don't know, but it is somewhat likely...

Did he get screwed by the jury? Yes and no. I hope the sentence is a very short one...

Moral of the story: make sure the first stab wound is lethal
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denim
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Sep 13, 2002, 08:50 AM
 
Originally posted by malson:
Moral of the story: make sure the first stab wound is lethal
There's the key: do the job right and you'll be better off. Also, dead criminals don't sue.
Is this a good place for an argument?
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zigzag
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Sep 13, 2002, 10:28 AM
 
Originally posted by denim:


There's the key: do the job right and you'll be better off. Also, dead criminals don't sue.
Their surviving families can sue, however.
     
chris_h
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Sep 14, 2002, 12:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Korv:
In texas you have the RIGHT to use lethal force in defending your home.
god bless texas.

anyone who says that 12 stabs is excessive has probably never been in life-or-death hand-to-hand combat. my thinking is, don't stop until there's no chance they're still alive.
you can't just stab someone once and say "shoo, shoo, getoutahere!"

and besides, lethal force is lethal force. either you can use it or you can't. you can't say 1 stab is okay but 12, or 20, isn't.
     
jcadam
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Sep 14, 2002, 07:45 PM
 
Originally posted by chris_h:


god bless texas.

anyone who says that 12 stabs is excessive has probably never been in life-or-death hand-to-hand combat. my thinking is, don't stop until there's no chance they're still alive.
you can't just stab someone once and say "shoo, shoo, getoutahere!"

and besides, lethal force is lethal force. either you can use it or you can't. you can't say 1 stab is okay but 12, or 20, isn't.
Exactly, keep stabbing the bastard until he stops moving. A mortally wounded foe can still kill you.
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AlbertWu
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Sep 14, 2002, 08:32 PM
 
... a BUTTER KNIFE???

that's just cruel. kinda like bludgeoning someone to death
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shanraghan
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Sep 14, 2002, 11:06 PM
 
No no, you fool. A BREAD knife. A BREAD knife is rather nasty looking with serrated edges, with rather large, hungry-looking arcs between the teeth. You're right though: if it were a butter knife, it'd just be too cruel.
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arrested502  (op)
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Sep 15, 2002, 12:44 AM
 
Bread Knife


Butter Kives
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shanraghan
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Sep 15, 2002, 01:56 AM
 
Hm... not quite the same sort of bread knives I remember. But lethal, no doubt about it.
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RGB
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Sep 15, 2002, 02:09 AM
 
If the guy was face down on the ground after 5 stabs, in too much pain to do anything,then the next 7 are excessive. Personally, I'd rather be killed than suffer w/ the bad wounds.
     
jcadam
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Sep 15, 2002, 10:19 AM
 
what is excessive?

If I were to shoot someone in the head, killing them, and then unload an entire clip into their corpse, would it matter?

I say no. He's just as dead.
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derbs
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Sep 15, 2002, 11:27 AM
 
couple of points that need to be raised here:

Mr Hastings (the guy who stabbed the intruder) is:

a) from Glasgow
b) has previous convictions for burglary, causing actual bodily harm and carrying a knife.

eg. Not a very nice man. I think stabbing an intruder twelve times counts as 'excessive force', especially when it wasn't even his house.
     
MadMacs
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Sep 15, 2002, 01:55 PM
 
( Last edited by MadMacs; Oct 5, 2002 at 02:57 AM. )
     
shanraghan
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Sep 15, 2002, 05:31 PM
 
Originally posted by RGB:
If the guy was face down on the ground after 5 stabs, in too much pain to do anything,then the next 7 are excessive. Personally, I'd rather be killed than suffer w/ the bad wounds.
Bear in mind, however, if you're fighting somebody who's running at you with what looks like a weapon and you think your life's in danger, odds are you won't have the composure to so precisely ration out the 'appropriate' punishment. Needless to say 12 stabs does seem rather excessive, but the situation is different to someone in a far from emotionally sober state of mind.

Originally posted by derbs:
couple of points that need to be raised here:

Mr Hastings (the guy who stabbed the intruder) is:

a) from Glasgow
b) has previous convictions for burglary, causing actual bodily harm and carrying a knife.

eg. Not a very nice man. I think stabbing an intruder twelve times counts as 'excessive force', especially when it wasn't even his house.
Indeed, I think these would be grounds for further consideration... however it is still possible, even with these convictions, that he was acting purely out of self-defense and without any suspicious intentions of his own. At the same time, it is impossible not to regard him with some degree of suspicion, and his story as well.
( Last edited by shanraghan; Sep 15, 2002 at 05:59 PM. )
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nana4
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Sep 16, 2002, 10:07 AM
 
Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Here he wouldnt have been convicted. It was a hung jury.
Indeed. It just shows another example of the increasing slavery of the British "sbujects"
     
   
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