[LightWaver-67]

First, a little background:
When I bought my Dual 2.5Ghz machine earlier this year, the Apple rep on the phone suggested a second video card in ADDITION to the one shipping to run both of my 21" CRT displays. He (erroneously) informed me that it'd perform better. Well... I found-out very quickly that he was wrong. The PCI card did not have the ability to render previews in Motion™ or any of the other fun-stuff supported on my AGP card.

So, I pulled the PCI card and ran (still running) both 21" displays at 1600 x 1200 off this AGP card and it works just fine.

NOW... the question:

I am in a position where I can purchase some really decent Sony flat-panel displays, the Sony SDM-S204/B 20.1" LCD Monitors. They actually spec'-out nicely. Now... I could just buy TWO of them and run the same screen real-estate since they are native 1600 x 1200 with a nice 500:1 contrast (they actually spec' a little BETTER than the Apple displays).

OR...

I could buy THREE of them for more real-estate, but then I'd need to go-back to having a PCI card to run the third display.

MY QUESTION: Will having the PCI card installed and running in my computer DEGRADE the overall performance of my video output...? Will it make my AGP-driven displays LESS responsive or reduce their performance...? I'd REALLY love to have the real-estate, but not at the cost of a performance-hit.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[OogaBooga]

Your AGP cards won't be affected by any PCI cards installed. The problem is that PCI cards don't exactly support Quartz Extreme, which is required by many graphics applications (including Motion). So the only useful aspect of a PCI video card in a Mac is really to be able to move general application windows over when you want to get real work done.

Example:
Working with Final Cut Pro on monitor 1, Motion on monitor 2, and then have Mail & iChat open on the PCI-driven monitor 3. FC and Motion won't experience any measurable slowdown from your PCI card.

[LightWaver-67]

The reason I ask is... there were bizarre anomalies when I WAS using the AGP & PCI card together. For example, when I ran my "planets" screensaver (OpenGL), it would stutter and-or stall (presumably) because of the PCI card... I say presumably because when I pulled it and used JUST the AGP for both... SMOOOTH, very fluent, much more responsive.

The choppiness of my PCI display would occasionally stall the AGP one (for just a second)... so in a way, it WAS affecting the display, even if indirectly.

Also... Dashboard would stutter when animating-in the Widgets... until I pulled the PCI card.

I guess my follow-up question is: What is the best card to get for the BEST PCI performance then...?

[Leonard]

The stuttering and stalling sounds like a wierd problem. How much RAM did you have in the G5. The other solution is to use the hack to turn on Quartz Extreme on the PCI card and see if that gets rid of the stuttering problem.

As for the best PCI card, there is basically only one or two. The best PCI card would be the ATI Radeon 9200 PCI card. The second best would be the ATI Radeon 7000, if it works in a G5, I've heard rumors it does, but the 7000 isn't manufactured any more. You might find it still in retail shops, though.

[MichiganRich]

Lightwaver, it sounds like you're looking for answers from people with less experience with the issues than you yourself have. If you have experienced problems with the additional PCI video card configuration, I think that pretty much trumps anyone around here who is just guessing it won't.

I've never used the configuration you're talking about, but It doesn't surprise me that there are issues when the software is 'going through routines' on both cards. The hardware chain may be proving to be only as strong as its weakest link.

[OogaBooga]

When you're running OpenGL, that's another story. It wouldn't make sense to have one monitor run at 60 FPS and the PCI-driven monitor run slower at say 25 FPS. One monitor would be way ahead of the other if this happened. Thus, they both have to default to the weakest chain in the link. Most OpenGL applications are supposed to render on one video card/monitor only, so as to prevent this problem. You may want to try as suggested above and enable the Quartz Extreme hack for the PCI card. That may speed things up a bit.

Now in OS X, FPS don't matter. So if you're working with Photoshop for example, you can put all your palettes on one monitor and do the actual work on the other. It won't slow things down because there are no FPS.

[Cadaver]

Sounds like its time for two 30" displays

[reader50]

Originally Posted by LightWaver-67

The reason I ask is... there were bizarre anomalies when I WAS using the AGP & PCI card together. For example, when I ran my "planets" screensaver (OpenGL), it would stutter and-or stall (presumably) because of the PCI card... I say presumably because when I pulled it and used JUST the AGP for both... SMOOOTH, very fluent, much more responsive.

The choppiness of my PCI display would occasionally stall the AGP one (for just a second)... so in a way, it WAS affecting the display, even if indirectly.

Also... Dashboard would stutter when animating-in the Widgets... until I pulled the PCI card.

I guess my follow-up question is: What is the best card to get for the BEST PCI performance then...?

It's perfectly fine to run an AGP and a PCI card. Some of the heavier graphics apps like Motion will not work on the weaker cards, but will keep working fine on the more powerful AGP card.

What you have noticed is screen savers that attempt to sync the displays on all monitors. Savers that do that get held back by the weakest video card. Sounds like Dashboard (perhaps Expose too) try to do this.

The effect is annoying but harmless. If it bothers you, do as others suggest and enable the QE on PCI hack. And/or upgrade to a Radeon 9200 for the PCI card.

I've been running 2 19" monitors off an AGP Radeon 8500, and a 3rd 19" monitor from a Radeon 7000. This configuration has been stable for well over a year. I tend to avoid savers that have problems on the weaker video card.

[astepanuks]

Originally Posted by reader50

The effect is annoying but harmless. If it bothers you, do as others suggest and enable the QE on PCI hack. And/or upgrade to a Radeon 9200 for the PCI card.

I've been running 2 19" monitors off an AGP Radeon 8500, and a 3rd 19" monitor from a Radeon 7000. This configuration has been stable for well over a year. I tend to avoid savers that have problems on the weaker video card.

I have been looking at PCI Extreme Hack 3.1 and according to Read Me file it is impossible to have AGP and PCI card with extreme hack in same Mac under Tiger
*****
Information Related to Version: 3.1 http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/16006

Product Description:
PCI Radeon users rejoice! This patch will enable hardware accelerated features in CoreGraphics any PCI video card with the proper hardware. Easy, eh? The patch that PCI Extreme! performs will not allow older cards, such as the Rage II, Rage 128 Pro, Nexus, or any Voodoo or nVidia cards to utilize hardware acceleration. Unless the AGP counterpart to your card can power a feature, the PCI equivalent will not be able to, even with this patch. That is the bottom line.

Unfortunately, because Apple hardcoded the setting into CoreGraphics, I'm not aware of a way to enable both AGP and PCI graphics quartz acceleration at the same time in 10.4. If you know a way, please let me know.

[LightWaver-67]

All good advice.

My PCI card IS the Radeon 9200 card. It's not a BAD card at all. I think I'll do as other have suggested and use thw two AGP-Driven displays for critical work and the third PCI-Driven display for my Mail, iCal, iTunes & iChat configuration.

It really is all the eye-candy stuff that won't perform well for me, but I can live with that in return for getting an additional 1600 x 1200 pixels of real-estate. I guess.

RE: Getting two 30" Apple displays... i'd LOVE that, but as I stated in my initial post above... I am in a position to make some purchases utilizing a gift-card for Staples™. Since they do not carry any Apple displays, I searched for the "best" flat-panels they sell and oddly enough, the ones I am looking at (SONY SDM-S204/B 20.1") are slightly "better" than the Apple displays based on pure specifications. Almost identical numbers, but the SONY(s) have a higher contrast ratio of 500:1 as opposed to the Apple display's 400:1... all the other spec's are the same if not better.

SONY SDM-S204/B 20.1" LCD Display

At $900 per unit for the SONY displays, I think it's a pretty good deal to get a total desktop of 4,800 x 1,200 for $2,700 as opposed to ONE Apple 30" which is selling for $2,900 and is only 2,560 x 1600... and the SONY has the better spec's.

Since this gift-card is just that, a GIFT to me... it's really going to be a missed luxury. I used to run a 3-display system for the longest time, but have been running two for the past year, ever since I got the G5. It'll be good to have the vast expanse of pixels again.

Thanks for all of your help. I think I have decided to go for three (3) of the displays.

[LightWaver-67]

Eh... for those who care... in my boredom, I thought I'd list the spec's for the SONY and closest Apple display for comparison:

Comparing the SONY 20" LCD and the Apple 20" LCD:

PRICE:
SONY $899
Apple $799 (Better)

RESOLUTION:
SONY 1600 x 1200 (Better)
Apple 1680 x 1050

PITCH:
SONY .255 mm (Better)
Apple .258 mm

BRIGHTNESS: (Same)
SONY 250cd/m2
Apple 250cd/m2

CONTRAST
SONY 500:1 (Better)
Apple 400:1

RESPONSE TIME:
SONY 25ms
Apple 16ms (Better)

VIEWING ANGLES: (Same)
SONY 170° Horiz & Vert
Apple 170° Horiz & Vert

Since I do a decent amount of video work, the only real downside I see to the SONY is the Response Time. Apple has the quicker 16ms time as opposed to the SONY 25ms... I don't know HOW noticeable the difference is going to be, but overall... the SONY seems to make sense, especially when you consider I am technically getting them for nothing.



Thanks again!

[crooner]

I'm in a similar boat. For years I’ve run a three display setup. On my recently retired QuickSilver dual 1GHz the configuration was a 22" Apple Cinema Display flanked by two SGI 1600SWs. One was run off the second port on the AGP card while the other was run from the now discontinued Formac Proformance III.

Since getting my 2.7 G5 I planned on getting 30" Apple Cinema Display and two Apple 23" displays. I bought the 9200 and started using it with my existing setup.

Yep, there are certain actions that seem to be affected from the presence of the 9200. While logic leads me to think the 9200 shouldn't affect the AGP (Radeon 850 XT), things like Dashboard and Exposé do seem to stutter a bit. Other than that, applications work fine. Just as suggested I use the center display as my main work area, the second for palettes and such and the third for iCal, iTunes, extra windows, icons, etc.

Incidentally, my 22" went south on me a couple of weeks ago. As I didn’t have the dough to grab a 30" I decided to get two 23" displays to start my migration to my new setup. After doing some research and thinking long and hard about the very heavily documented color issues with the 23" screens, I instead went with a pair of Dell 24" Widescreens. I got them for $899 thanks to a coupon code from dealmac.com. The Dells are GREAT. I couldn’t be happier with them and am now closing in on the 30". Can't wait for that. I’ll be in pixel heaven!

As for the anomalies with the extra graphics card I think it’s just something you must accept and not worry too much about. Kind of a bummer, but one that is overshadowed by the glory that is three displays.