[macupuncture]

Please tell me you have never had to go through this:

My wizzy, liquid cooled dual 2.5 G5 (last year's high end model) sprung a leak. Whoever decided to put liquid inside an electronic device should have their head examined...

For months, it would boot erratically and would need to start from a CD to get going again. Sounded like an OS glitch and since I fix Macs all the time, I never gave it a lot of thought.
On Oct. 10th, though, it stopped booting altogether. I finally opened it up to reset the PMU (since I had had a blackout the day before), and I found this:

http://homepage.mac.com/macupuncture/PhotoAlbum27.html

Aparently, the machine had been leaking for months, and now was out of warranty. I'm assuming this was the cause of the wigginess I had been experienced. Since I'm not in the habit of checking my computers for spraying fluid, I had no way of knowing this was the problem. Silly me.

Anyway, I took it into a licensed repair shop and on Oct. 11th they told me I would need a new logic board, new chips, new power block, etc. $1900. Ouch. There was a chance that Visa would extend the warranty so I went for it. That was a month ago. A MONTH.

So, every day, I call Apple and everyday they give me the same story. the part is FINALLY definitely in stock and it will ship tomorrow. So far I have heard this 6 times- Oct. 27th, 31st, Nov. 1st, 4th, 6th and 8th. I have the direct number of a woman I spoke to in dispatch who can't seem to return my call eventhough her message says she will get back in touch within 24 hours and she told me to get in touch with her directly.

So far, I have lost 10% of my yearly income potential from this machine (it's how I make my living), I am a month behind on personal work (rewriting a screenplay and video game project), I can't send out bills or invoices to get paid and I still have to pay $2000 for a repair on a machine that is an obvoiusly flawed design and poor construction to boot. And when it breaks as it surely will, parts have to be shipped from Neptune to fix it. In addition, there is no guarantee the parts will actually even work when they go in since they may be refurbished. Grrrrrr!!! If they had told me I would have to wait this long or even half this long, I would have just bought a new machine! I could have already made back the cost of a new one. It's unbelievable.

Apple constructs nearly 11,000 machines a day not including iPods, and they seem to be able to manage having enough parts for those machines even given the failure rate. I have a machine that cost $3000 last year, and another $2000 18 months later and no one can even find parts for it.

Has ANYONE had anything like that happen to them? I certainly hope not.

I don't know about you, but when I get this thing back, I expect Apple to trade it in for a new machine. This one is a lemon of a design and they have botched the process of repair big time. Fortunatley I have documented the crap out of this so I can show them how badly they have screwed up.

I'm furious!!

[chris v]

1. You should definitely be getting better service and support. Time to start raising hell.
2. One word: Applecare.
3. Maybe instead you should put the 1900 towards a new box instead? You'd probably get back to work faster, anyway, & you could just shove you drive in it.

[seanc]

Well if you get in touch with someone high up with Apple they won't be happy about the leak. I read a thread on here a while ago about the same thing.

As chris said, start raising hell. It may also be worthwhile you canceling the repair and buying a Mac Pro, if Apple then replace your G5, sell the replacement on eBay.

[Chuckit]

Can't help beyond dittoing the advice to raise hell, but I just wanted to express my sympathy. Ouch, that looks ugly.

[flame12]

Yikes! Sorry about what has happened. My suggestion would be to email [email protected] This email forwards on to customer service reps very high up in the chain that will have a ton more leverage. I have done this and have had friends do this in the past and it has worked out extremely well. Let me know how it all goes!

[iMacfan]

That sounds really crap. What I'd do is phone apple and stress that the problems started within the warranty period, and that in addition (especially if you are somewhere in the EU), the product should last much, much longer than that and so it should be repaired/replaced, whatever their warranty terms say.

David

[jasonv1]

Like everyone said, raise hell...

ANy decent CSR will admit that this *had* to be going on for months.

[macupuncture]

Thanks for the empathy. I appreciate it.

As for just buying a new machine as you suggested I certainly would have if I thought it would take this long, and that's one of my main problems with Apple right now. Their information has been so innacurate, I can't make any good decisions. If I knew it would take even 2 weeks, I would have bought a new box, but they keep telling me "it will be ready tomorrow". 6 times.

As for AppleCare, that is fine, but even if I HAD it, it would still have taken the same amount of time to fix. I service Macs for part of my living, so I figured I'd be able to handle most things that come up. Never again.

To be fair, I have NEVER had any problems with Apple before. this, however, is so extraordinary, I had to post it.
I have spoken to supervisors, had the issue escalated, received admissions that it's a really bad situation, but the fact remains. I don't have my computer.

A note of advise, though. Be nice to the people you are on the phone with. They will give you a lot more information than if you get in their face. Even if they can't control the chip shipments, they have helped document all this and they are trying to help. ASll this will put me in a better position when I really start to scream at them about making it up to me.

[mduell]

Buy a Mac Pro and sell the G5 when you eventually get it back?

[cgc]

Since you rely on your MAc so much for your livlihood you probably should have a backup Mac in case something like this happens again. Good luck on your G5.

[iMacfan]

Originally Posted by cgc 

Since you rely on your MAc so much for your livlihood you probably should have a backup Mac in case something like this happens again. Good luck on your G5.

I know it doesn't help really with the current problem, but I also say that an intel Mac mini and a firewire drive to clone you main machine to would be a good idea.

David

[blustorm]

Fortunately I knew some friends who worked on macs from time to time. They told me go with the g4 because they knew of cases where this fluid had leaked. So it is a known factor to consider.

You have made me feel better though. My problems are not near as severe as yours. I simply have cds go out and checksum says there is no packets on my install disks which cost about one hundred and forty dollars apiece. I like tiger osx its just that I need to be able to install it. I have had two cd-rw go out this year. I am wondering if I am being hacked todeath or what. People are taking tools off my install disk. I am also getting a two gig file that stays on the hard drive after an erase and root password is changed. This is through a router so someone has to be pretty good to do this.

[svtcontour]

Jesus ! Well I remember when those things first came out, I was having an argument with a friend and I said its a stupid idea and he said Apple knows what they are doing...etc. Well here we go.

Sometimes Apple engineers have their head up their *sses I guess. I'm sure the box could have been cooled with standard coolers. Heck I have a dual 3Ghz Intel xeon box running fairly silently right beside me. I'm sure they ran hotter than the 2.5Ghz cpus in the Dual G5.

Anyway I say you be nice but firm. Also tell them nicely that you're sharing your experience with your Mac friends on assorted computer forums and that you'll be happy to give them news that Apple has come to the rescue in regards to your situation....kinda make them feel bad if they dont help. Dont know if that would work but make them feel a bit obligated....

[lilfordbmx]

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

Jesus ! Well I remember when those things first came out, I was having an argument with a friend and I said its a stupid idea and he said Apple knows what they are doing...etc. Well here we go.

Sometimes Apple engineers have their head up their *sses I guess. I'm sure the box could have been cooled with standard coolers. Heck I have a dual 3Ghz Intel xeon box running fairly silently right beside me. I'm sure they ran hotter than the 2.5Ghz cpus in the Dual G5.

Anyway I say you be nice but firm. Also tell them nicely that you're sharing your experience with your Mac friends on assorted computer forums and that you'll be happy to give them news that Apple has come to the rescue in regards to your situation....kinda make them feel bad if they dont help. Dont know if that would work but make them feel a bit obligated....

off topic i guess, but the G5 processor is the reason there was much needed cooling.. the intel chips run much cooler.. i'd figure just about everyone knew this already, but i guess not?

[Spliffdaddy]

No, the Intel chips run much hotter. Just check the wattage specs.

[svtcontour]

Originally Posted by lilfordbmx 

off topic i guess, but the G5 processor is the reason there was much needed cooling.. the intel chips run much cooler.. i'd figure just about everyone knew this already, but i guess not?

You need to check your facts friend. "INTEL chips" as you so said can cover anything from a 4.77Mhz CPU to the latest four core monster. Which Intel CPU are you referring to? I'm talking about my Xeons. At 3Ghz, each one can peak out about 100W so the two CPU's can consume 200W. Thats just the processors. Thats nearly double what the G5 was using.

This is the box, the coolers I'm running and me deciding to strap on some additional fans on them (running at very low speeds) just to keep things under 55C at full loads.

http://powerthings.com/pics/pc/2.jpg
http://powerthings.com/pics/chenbro/11.jpg
http://powerthings.com/pics/chenbro/14.jpg

If I can make my own box and have it be fairly silent (nearly as quiet as a dual G5 during idle and less noise than the G5 at full load - this is with my box at full load and fans going full speed) then I sure as hell would think apple can figure out a way to dissapage half the wattage in a more logical way.

[itguy05]

Water cooling has been in use for a long time- large systems use it and many OC's swear by it on the PC side of things. What probably happened is something - the rubber tube or clamp sprung a leak a tiny bit.

That being said, I'd definitely raise hell - this is unacceptable.

Although Applecare is definitely something to look into for future purchases, as is a cheap spare machine. Think stripped Mini - it will at least allow you to get work out.

[max power]

1 out of 5+ million units ain't bad
to say they should not have used liquid cooling is insane
this is not a widespread or rampant problem
It is absolutely a defective unit but to say it is a poor design or the engineers are crazy is ludicrous
Apple has a top notch product

yea windows boxes have far less issues .......

[mduell]

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

Jesus ! Well I remember when those things first came out, I was having an argument with a friend and I said its a stupid idea and he said Apple knows what they are doing...etc. Well here we go.

Sometimes Apple engineers have their head up their *sses I guess. I'm sure the box could have been cooled with standard coolers. Heck I have a dual 3Ghz Intel xeon box running fairly silently right beside me. I'm sure they ran hotter than the 2.5Ghz cpus in the Dual G5.

Anyway I say you be nice but firm. Also tell them nicely that you're sharing your experience with your Mac friends on assorted computer forums and that you'll be happy to give them news that Apple has come to the rescue in regards to your situation....kinda make them feel bad if they dont help. Dont know if that would work but make them feel a bit obligated....

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

You need to check your facts friend. "INTEL chips" as you so said can cover anything from a 4.77Mhz CPU to the latest four core monster. Which Intel CPU are you referring to? I'm talking about my Xeons. At 3Ghz, each one can peak out about 100W so the two CPU's can consume 200W. Thats just the processors. Thats nearly double what the G5 was using.

This is the box, the coolers I'm running and me deciding to strap on some additional fans on them (running at very low speeds) just to keep things under 55C at full loads.

http://powerthings.com/pics/pc/2.jpg
http://powerthings.com/pics/chenbro/11.jpg
http://powerthings.com/pics/chenbro/14.jpg

If I can make my own box and have it be fairly silent (nearly as quiet as a dual G5 during idle and less noise than the G5 at full load - this is with my box at full load and fans going full speed) then I sure as hell would think apple can figure out a way to dissapage half the wattage in a more logical way.

Thanks for playing, but you are wrong.

The 3Ghz (5100 series) Xeon TDP is less than the 2.5Ghz PPC970MP TDP.

[svtcontour]

So you're under the impression that this is the first one to leak? Its not. Also considering that the system board replacement could cost so much money and people are tied into the hardware and cannot possibly get a better price for replacement parts, apple should be taking precautions to ensure that this kind of failure cannot happen. I mean there is no reason for the liquid to be in there. None. It was a gimmick to get people to ooh and ah and nothing else.

...should have been a huge chunk of copper for cooling and not water and pumps and radiators and tubing (which are multiple failiure points).

also ya windows boxes do have less issues (when I build them for myself and for my clients). I dont introduce extra things that can fail.

PS. If its not a widespread problem and is such an inconceivable failure, then apple should replace everything without question. I dont think they will. I have a feeling the poor guy is SOL.

Originally Posted by max power 

1 out of 5+ million units ain't bad
to say they should not have used liquid cooling is insane
this is not a widespread or rampant problem
It is absolutely a defective unit but to say it is a poor design or the engineers are crazy is ludicrous
Apple has a top notch product

yea windows boxes have far less issues .......

[svtcontour]

Hey Mduell, sorry, guess I was looking at the 2Ghz when I had read online, but unfortunatly most post with the links does not show a 51xx series Xeon. Its a Nocona and I'm sorry to say that I'm at least right on that one. TDP of the Nocona is 103W
Intel Xeon - Wikipedia

If I can design and build a quiet computer that can dissapate that kind of heat without liquids, then apple should be able to do the same. Its not needed. Its NOT a super computer. Its a home computer in the hands of ordinary people. Nobody should be dealing with leaks in a home computer. I dont care what anyone says. Apple screwed up. Even if its 5 in 5,000,000 computers. That means apple screwed 5 people who didnt have to be screwed.

[anonymac]

While I can understand that your computer is your business, you really should go easier on Apple. Apple can't test every single machine they make, and the fact that it was doing strange things like booting erratically (and you couldn't fix it) should have given you some incentive to take it in while it was under warranty for inspection. Sometimes parts go bad, and it's your job to notice it and allow Apple to fix it under warranty.

Also, if you don't have the foresight to have a few backup computers if you depend on them for your income, then that's a pretty bad decision that Apple is also not responsible for. You should realize that Apple doesn't owe you anything, since you ignored the problem until it was too late. Apple is in business to make money, not to hand out free computers due to your negligence.

[max power]

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

So you're under the impression that this is the first one to leak? Its not. Also considering that the system board replacement could cost so much money and people are tied into the hardware and cannot possibly get a better price for replacement parts, apple should be taking precautions to ensure that this kind of failure cannot happen. I mean there is no reason for the liquid to be in there. None. It was a gimmick to get people to ooh and ah and nothing else.

...should have been a huge chunk of copper for cooling and not water and pumps and radiators and tubing (which are multiple failiure points).

also ya windows boxes do have less issues (when I build them for myself and for my clients). I dont introduce extra things that can fail.

PS. If its not a widespread problem and is such an inconceivable failure, then apple should replace everything without question. I dont think they will. I have a feeling the poor guy is SOL.

Dude give me a break
If you got a flat tire who would you blame ... Its like running your car on a flat for 3 miles and then wanting the rim replaced !



First of all I'm a tech here in LA studios and it not uncommon to get a call about an erratic computer and I Would never just let it go as the user described. I'm sure at that time it was leaking and long before any corrosion he was experiencing this erratic behavior
why would apple replace the logic PCB if the user states that he was experiencing issues and then waited for a total failure and then wanted it replaced . there is a bit of culpability for the end user to use due diligence & care, warranty or not .

He had " problems for months " if you ask me he blew any chance for a satisfactory resolution for that reason alone !!!



YOU honestly dont see any reason for the liquid to be there ... what about cooling do you know anything about thermal dynamics? it is there for a very logical reason ! Everything has a failure percentage even your prized PC's (( FYI I gave up working on PC's because it was all consuming ))
and besides I dont know of a studio here using a PC for that reason alone

the logic you are using would mean that every solder point is a potential failure ! oh my there are like 100,000+ solder connections and there so small ( that cant be a good idea )

ANYTHING can fail


besides the system as designed and was designed is very efficient and FAR more so than a big block of copper with a big fan

( there is a big, big difference between "keeping it cool" and not to just " keep it from getting hot" )
I'm sure this big block would work well with turbo fan attached

why is there not one high performance product that would use this approach, could you imagine taking out a radiator and replacing it with some big thing sticking out of the hood
just so you do not have worry about springing a leak

[mduell]

max power, the point is that Apple chose a less reliable cooling solution that is more complex and more expensive while providing no tangible benefit for an application at this "low" power level. Anything can fail, but that doesn't make this implementation anywhere near the reliability of a metal heatsink and a couple fans.

Just because a pumped-liquid radiator makes sense in a car engine doesn't mean it makes sense inside a desktop PC. Why not go whole-hog and use a Fluorinert spraying system like some supercomputers do? Unnecessary cost and unnecessary complexity for this application.

[svtcontour]

Thanks Mduell, at least you know what I was trying to get at. Max power, its very simple. All computers have solder joints and basic components that make them function. The problem is that Apple decided to introduce an extra variable that can fail more easily than another and when it does fail, it can be a much more severe failiure than it normally would be.

...You can give me any computer that is acting a bit erratic and freezing from time to time and I can say it can be a flaky PSU or RAM or the OS needing a reinstall or what ever BUT no user should have to crack open their computer to check for puddles as a source of their problems. If you dont get this, then I'm not sure what else to say. The user in this post in my opinion did not do anything unreasonable. If there was liquid ON his desk then sure but if not, then he would have no reason to open it.

[dsteinman]

Originally Posted by macupuncture 

Please tell me you have never had to go through this:
So far, I have lost 10% of my yearly income potential from this machine (it's how I make my living),

Sems to me like this alone would justify an APP on this computer..

[dsteinman]

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

...should have been a huge chunk of copper for cooling and not water and pumps and radiators and tubing (which are multiple failiure points).

You really think Apple would have done this if it had not been shown to be necessary and a better alternative than higher flow fans ? Windows boxes are a very bad comparison, as they don't introduce extra components as that introduces extra cost. With most pcs, build the pos as cheaply as possible is the rule, and yes, 50 decibel fans are much less expensive than a water cooled system.

[svtcontour]

Originally Posted by dsteinman 

You really think Apple would have done this if it had not been shown to be necessary and a better alternative than higher flow fans ? Windows boxes are a very bad comparison, as they don't introduce extra components as that introduces extra cost. With most pcs, build the pos as cheaply as possible is the rule, and yes, 50 decibel fans are much less expensive than a water cooled system.

Please dont give me the most PCs are crap thing. I'm not talking about most PC's. I posted earlier in the thread about me building my own dual Xeon box which is air cooled and quiet. I can say that because we have G5 2.0 and 2.5 towers in the office so i know what they sound like. I managed similar sound levels without liquids and even lower temps than that water cooled contraption. 46C idle and 60C full load. All I'm saying is that its possible to get rid of 100W per chip of heat without resorting to water cooling.

[dsteinman]

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

P I posted earlier in the thread about me building my own

Please read my post again, your operative statement is "building my own".

[svtcontour]

Originally Posted by dsteinman 

Please read my post again, your operative statement is "building my own".

So what you're saying is that I'm smarter than Apple and that I shouldnt compare a cooling solution I researched and chose for my home built PC which dissapates the same heat as the 2.5Ghz G5 chips which apple had to watercool?

Lets put it another way. I will pose a question. Can a pair of chips totalling 200W be adequatly cooled without high noise levels without the use of pumps and liquids?

I already know the answer by the way.

[max power]

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

Please dont give me the most PCs are crap thing. I'm not talking about most PC's. I posted earlier in the thread about me building my own dual Xeon box which is air cooled and quiet. I can say that because we have G5 2.0 and 2.5 towers in the office so i know what they sound like. I managed similar sound levels without liquids and even lower temps than that water cooled contraption. 46C idle and 60C full load. All I'm saying is that its possible to get rid of 100W per chip of heat without resorting to water cooling.

What about the FACT the he waited " through Months of problems " then decided it needed to fixed
and this whole time he just essentially ignored the issue .......

As I said prior if you had a flat tire and continued to drive for 3 miles on that flat would you expect the manufacturer to replace the rim ?

Just using a automotive analogy because it conveys the point and not to confuse the feeble minded

[Cold Warrior]

-snip-

[svtcontour]

Originally Posted by max power 

What about the FACT the he waited " through Months of problems " then decided it needed to fixed
and this whole time he just essentially ignored the issue .......

As I said prior if you had a flat tire and continued to drive for 3 miles on that flat would you expect the manufacturer to replace the rim ?

Just using a automotive analogy because it conveys the point and not to confuse the feeble minded

And just what I said earlier. Nobody in their right mind equates a flaky computer with pools of fluid leaking inside their computer. No matter how unstable a machine is, unless fluid is leaking on a desk or floor, nobody is going to look inside! Enough with the flat tire and car comparisions. Its not the same. A flat tire can be heard and seen from the outside and felt. A quirky heater control or funky electrical system in a car acting weird would not equate to a catastrophic failure liked a spun bearing or cracked block.

In a computer, instability and quircks can be found everywhere but 99% of the time, its OS or 3rd party software related OR something like new ram that is installed. If he didnt add any new hardware, then why would he have to wonder that its a hardware probablem causing the instability? I'm sure his fans were running so he wouldnt be thinking it was a cooling issue, the video was working, hard drives working... it was just flaky and acting strange. Maybe you'd be looking for fluid inside the computer because you're used to the retarded cooling system apple designed but 99.99% of people dont go looking for antifreeze leaks IN the computer.

[nerd]

I agree ^. I wouldn't have thought about opening the case to look for a leak.

[anonymac]

But anyone who has common sense would have taken their computer in for diagnostics if they had seen that it was booting erratically:

"For months, it would boot erratically and would need to start from a CD to get going again. Sounded like an OS glitch and since I fix Macs all the time, I never gave it a lot of thought. "

The user doesn't have to open the computer, so the previous argument is moot. The user noticed for months that there was a problem, and didn't really care. That's his fault, not Apple's fault.

[pantie sniffer]

oh dear.....

[max power]

A simple test using the hardware test disk very early on would have hinted towards a hardware problem developing, and then at that point a real Computer tech would have peaked inside to inspect the hardware

[svtcontour]

Originally Posted by max power 

A simple test using the hardware test disk very early on would have hinted towards a hardware problem developing, and then at that point a real Computer tech would have peaked inside to inspect the hardware

This is true and yes to some degree the user did not act fast enough but no matter what anyone says, I will always disagree with apple's choice of watercooling this computer instead of air cooled which would have been sufficient and less problematic and more reliable.

[Todd Madson]

The other issue is: the use of a professional machine without a backup plan.

Not having Applecare in such a situation is asking for the thing to explode.

I'm a semi-pro and I've got that 3 years there for a reason. It was expensive,
but not as expensive as replacing a motherboard, processors and power supply.

I realize that there's a good chance my G5 2.5 dual could do what this users
machine did - I hear about it every now and again. I tend to keep computers
for half a decade at least after I buy them so we're talking about the possibility
of once a year for the next 4-5 to potentially have this happen.

Once the 3 years of Applecare is up I have to re-examine my options. I've
got a G4/400 still chugging away after 6 years but it doesn't have a bizzarre
liquid cooling system inside it.

[TiDual]

For the record, I've got a research lab which has 8-9 G5s (spanning the original dual 2.0GHz right to the dual 2.7s and the quad G5s). These machine get worked pretty hard (often with at least one core under full load for weeks on end), and I've had three G5s fail, complete with coolant leakage. In my case, failure was always complete and immediate (ie. the machine didn't limp along for month). Apple replaced one dual 2.5 with a Quad G5... repaired another (dual 2.7), and replace the third (dual 2.7) with a quad 3.0 Xeon :-)). All were under Applecare, and in my experience, Apple makes an extra effort then.

[svtcontour]

Here is another poor soul who lost their G5 due to leaks

"i didn't mention in my original post, but my G5 actually died due to Liquid Cooling System leak, and i didn't have enough time to back up my files from the Cheetah; which i use for main working drive. (i do audio btw)."

His comment is about 1/3 the way down the page on this thread
Internalizing SCSI HD in a Mac Pro - Mac Forums


Again I say its retarded to have liquid cooling in a computer which doesnt require it.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by svtcontour 

Again I say its retarded to have liquid cooling in a computer which doesnt require it.

The problem is the they needed it. Thanks to IBM those CPUs ran hot too hot at least at the speeds apple was wanting them for.

While I feel for the OP, there was no way I would have plunked any amonut of money down for a liquid cooled computer. There's no amonut of data [on not leaking] or guarantees that would even tempt me to spend my hard earned money on one.

Mechanical parts wear out and break down. That's a fact of life. Another fact of life is that computers and liquids don't mix well. Put those two together and your asking for trouble.

[svtcontour]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

The problem is the they needed it. Thanks to IBM those CPUs ran hot too hot at least at the speeds apple was wanting them for.

While I feel for the OP, there was no way I would have plunked any amonut of money down for a liquid cooled computer. There's no amonut of data [on not leaking] or guarantees that would even tempt me to spend my hard earned money on one.

Mechanical parts wear out and break down. That's a fact of life. Another fact of life is that computers and liquids don't mix well. Put those two together and your asking for trouble.

See I dont think it was needed. The 2.5Ghz G5 which was liquid cooled is about 100W per cpu so thats 200W of cooling needed. I am currently cooling a pair of dual 3Ghz Nocona Xeons which are about 103W per CPU (so its virtually identical) and I'm doing it with large copper coolers and some slow turning fans. The CPU's never exceed 60C under load. It can be done. They just did it in my opinion to be different.