[HeatMiser]

"Students should use Windows-based computers in school, because 99.99999% of the world uses Windows, and our kids need to be prepared for the real world."

Now, I'm no genius, but I grew up on Macs, and I didn't need any Windows classes to be able to use a PC the first time I saw one.

Has our educational system deteriorated so dramatically in the last 15 years that this is really still an issue?

I guess I'm just tired of seeing people trot out this argument when defending their decision to fill a school with PCs.

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The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by HeatMiser:
"Students should use Windows-based computers in school, because 99.99999% of the world uses Windows, and our kids need to be prepared for the real world."

Now, I'm no genius, but I grew up on Macs, and I didn't need any Windows classes to be able to use a PC the first time I saw one.

Has our educational system deteriorated so dramatically in the last 15 years that this is really still an issue?

I guess I'm just tired of seeing people trot out this argument when defending their decision to fill a school with PCs.

I think the argument back to that attitude would be "Well, if 99.9% of students jumped off a bridge, should your son/daughter?"

Just kidding.

I think that the problem exists in the fact that people want to teach kids ANY specific operating system/program. I mean, why teach them Windows 98 when they'll have to use Windows XP 2004.123?

It's like teaching them how to use a specific kind of car, rather then just saying, "Here's the steering wheel. This pedal makes it go faster. This one is the brake. Go."

We should teach kids the CONCEPTS of computing. Windows, Mac, Linux, etc. doesn't matter. Of course I think that they should be getting Macs, but that's MY opinion!



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Dave Simon
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Windows are easily broken.

[sebuchen]

Your right! I'm so sick if hearing that clap-trap that I think I'm gonna puke so hard my socks will come up. I agree with davesimondotcom's statement 100%... When are people gonna get it through their skulls. Heck, you'd think the schools would WANT to teach a little diversity. Another thing I get tired of hearing is: "but all my FRIENDS have Windows". Who gives a skeet? My reply: "If all your friends had festering hemorrhoids would you want them too!"

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by sebuchen:
Your right! I'm so sick if hearing that clap-trap that I think I'm gonna puke so hard my socks will come up. I agree with davesimondotcom's statement 100%... When are people gonna get it through their skulls. Heck, you'd think the schools would WANT to teach a little diversity. Another thing I get tired of hearing is: "but all my FRIENDS have Windows". Who gives a skeet? My reply: "If all your friends had festering hemorrhoids would you want them too!"

LOL! That's a funny retort!



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Dave Simon
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Windows are easily broken.

[finboy]

I would! I would!

I think the response that students should be LEARNING IDEAS and CONCEPTS and how to analyze a situation and respond, rather than learning SKILLS is appropriate. I never learned how to program in basic or pascal or C, I learned how to program.

The example provided above is perfect, but needs refinement. Instead of teaching someone how to drive a specific type of car, we SHOULD start with lessons about friction and momentum (the properties of the internal-combustion engine aren't important, except that it can explode and kill you, BUT the ideas that govern the movement of LARGE DANGEROUS MASSES over distances at speed are fairly important to understand, as are the braking qualities of inflated rubber, or lack thereof). That's what MY folks did, and it worked GREAT.

Now, in a typical college environment at least, we end up teaching lots of skills, so it translates to the classroom for computer stuff as well. Other influences: it's easier to find (arbitrary) goals for students when teaching skills, since there are so many little components when you aren't discussing principles (what we call state-specific events in economics). So lazy teachers who DON'T understand the principles end up teaching skills.

Also, good teachers are hard to find, but bad teachers often have a great mastery of the skills necessary to AFFECT a performance that looks like a good teacher. Form over substance - and the reward system in US education is set up that way.

Students are therefore focused on process and not outcomes, or sometimes too focused on outcomes and not enough focused on process. With the type of learning I'm saying is OPTIMAL here, the process is usually as important as the outcome, but the outcome is usually measurable and of value as well. [I see focus on process all the time with my students, who say "but I spent so much TIME on it, and it still isn't right." Usually, they're grinding away, but many of them think if they spend a lot of time on it that it somehow nullifies the answer being wrong. Wait until THEY get a job, if they get a job. This is obviously the WRONG kind of process focus.] Those students which are too focused on outcomes end up in trouble later on -- they focus on getting a grade rather than learning the principles of the material. According to many professors' teaching styles at the undergrad level, such a superficial treatment is OK, but I see many of these students in a world of pain in graduate school, when the prof expects that if you have a superficial knowledge you have a detailed knowledge.

Anyhow, many too much of a rant, but we shouldn't be teaching students ANY operating systems. In fact, I'd argue that the improper use of computers in school can easily distract students and keep them from learning in an efficient manner. Besides, we've computers in classrooms since I was a kid, and my students are NO MORE computer literate today, even after college level classes, than kids were when I was in college. In addition, they don't read and write as well. Related? Sure. TV hours are probably related too -- many of them are sitting around waiting for life to happen to them, as seen on TV.

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Shop smart, shop S-Mart! You got that!!?!!

[Ken_F2]

I am not sure I agree with the argument of the original poster. Everyone knows that Windows (at least, the current versions) is harder to use than MacOS 9.x. The simple reality is that many Macintosh users find Windows hard to use; few Windows users, however, find the Macintosh hard to use (obviously because it is easier to use). If they are taught the harder-to-use OS at an early age, they will have no problem with either Windows or the MacOS at a later stage.

Even so, don't think it has to do with Windows, but rather the applications for Windows. Now, this seems less of an issue now that Microsoft has a comparable (nearly identical) version of Office for the Mac, but before then, this was significant barrier. There are still hundreds of generic applications and thousands of specialized applications used in business available only (or only in their recent versions) on Windows. While I can't see how this really factors into the decision for most lower grade levels, this argument may make sense for the upper grade levels and/or college (with obvious exception to some graphics and publishing work, where the Macintosh is still the most commonly used platform in business).

Ken

[yoyo52]

Unfortunately, a lot of the claptrap that passes for educational reform in the US comes down to the idea that kids, at whatever grade level, should be trained rather than educated. From that point of view, it makes sense that a kid ought to be trained to use a particular widget, rather than taught to think through a problem. I see a lot of kids who come to my college suffering from a great deal of training and very little education. Fortunately most of them are bright enough to start exercising their brains instead of the muscle reflex loop that their training has developed.

Not to be political about it but the "reforms" in education that are coming down the pike will make the educational system even worse than it is now. And that applies to colleges as well as the primary and secondary school systems. Collegiate accrediting agencies are looking for quantifiable "outcome assessment" results from colleges. But quantifiable results tend to be a reflection of the most superficial training that students get. There are, of course, pretty good ways of figuring out whether a student has learned anything worthwhile in a college--but those ways are incredibly labor intensive, so I would bet you that very few institutions will do more than throw multiple choice tests at their graduates to satisfy the accrediting agencies' need for "hard" data.

And don't forget that the agencies' need is itself fueled by the political demand that schools justify the expenditure of public funds on education. It all makes me want to agree that government has no role in education at all. I don't actually come to that conclusion for a number of reason, but it sure is tempting!

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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[juanvaldes]

while I agree with the above statemnts expecially finboy, I learned on Mac back in 86 and have had no problems whatsoever using any other OS.

But there is a problem, I just did this paper and everyone in my group uses word, and since word dosen't like anyother type of file I had to use word just so they could open my part of the paper! This pissed me off, and posses a problem for schools. If students are typing papers at home in word on their little PeeCee's how are they to open them at school, since they will just put it on a floppy disk? Schools shouldn't standerize at all, they should use all kinds of computers, Mac's, Winblows, Unix...



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"Imagine the disincentive to software development if after months of work another company could come along and copy your work and market it under its own name...without legal restraints to such copying, companies like Apple could not afford to advance the state of the art."
- Bill Gates, 1983 (New York Times, 25 Sep 1983, p. F2)

[yoyo52]

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
If students are typing papers at home in word on their little PeeCee's how are they to open them at school, since they will just put it on a floppy disk? Schools shouldn't standerize at all, they should use all kinds of computers, Mac's, Winblows, Unix...

Word for hte Mac is completely transparent in and for Word for Windows. In fact, you wouldn't believe how often poor students who've worked on their papers on Windows come to me so my Mac can open their Word documents because for some reason the lab PCs refuse to read their disks.


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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[alieng79]

I started using Apple comps when i was in elementary school, but then as i started getting older, Apple products disappeared from the schools :-( And i had to start teaching myself how to use microsoft, which was quite easy but i hated it so much. Its a shame though, i took a class this semester at my college and i did a paper on Apple and made a movie for my final presentation, and about 99.5% of class had no idea about apple products or how to use a Mac...all because Dell has take over my campus and everyone uses windows Go figure....

[scaught]

the world does predominantly use windows based computers. argue about how its not right all you want, but its just a fact.

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you're going to have my foot at your lip in a minute, young man.

scott

[This message has been edited by scaught (edited 05-05-2001).]

[Fred CHOTTIN]

Hopefully, for the US educational system, some schools still buy Macs and more will return. Remember the 23 000 iBooks?
When institutions in the US (or elsewhere) will understand that PCs are not cheaper than Macs for cost of use and that, after less than 1 year of use, the purchase price difference is more than compensated by maintenance costs (many independent studies prove it), then there will be a larger use of our favourite platform in education, and in business (thanks to OS X).

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Fight against the Dark Force (Microsoft)

[BuonRotto]

Considering that Apple tends to be ahead of the curve on at least a few trends, by the time one leaves school, those trends will find their way onto other platforms and you will already be prepared while others must learn the new thing as soon as learned the current thing in school. Happened with me. Used a Mac, one step ahead of other job candidates even though the firm uses PC's.

[MikeM32]

While it's only a certain percentage of the over-all market that uses computers for anything, The Design and Graphics students will suffer as-well using only PC's, since that specific market is still very dominated by the Macintosh.

But I do believe that just pushing this one way mentality on present and future students is rediculous. Sure they probably should know a bit about windows, and Linux, and Unix, and the Mac OS. I think it'll benefit them alot more than just knowing one system. It's sad that only exposing these students to one system will likely end-up in a future of computer users that doesn't even know that "the other" system is better for thier needs (whatever the other system is).

This will ultimately wind-up in a very un-eduacted "bias" towards the only system they've ever been exposed to.

"My school uses this OS therefor it rules"
"Well have you ever tried this other OS?"
"No"


Mike

[MikeM32]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
While it's only a certain percentage of the over-all market that uses computers for anything, The Design and Graphics students will suffer as-well using only PC's, since that specific market is still very dominated by the Macintosh.

But I do believe that just pushing this one way mentality on present and future students is rediculous. Sure they probably should know a bit about windows but they should also be exposed to Linux, and Unix, and the Mac OS, and others. I think it'll benefit them alot more than just knowing one system. It allows them to truly decide what's better for them. When your'e never exposed to anything outside of one system, you just assume it "rules".

It's sad that only exposing these students to one system will likely end-up in a future of computer users that doesn't even know that "the other" system is better for thier needs (whatever the other system is).

This will ultimately wind-up in a very un-eduacted "bias" towards the only system they've ever been exposed to.

"My school uses this OS therefor it rules"

"Well have you ever tried that other OS?"

"No"



Mike

[tie]

I agree. We need more operating system diversity in public schools. Just because their parents are biased toward Windows doesn't mean that the kids should inherit their discriminatory tendencies. All we can hope for is some sort of court busing order to straighten this out.