[Kevin]

Oh rlly?

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by ironknee

no. invisible, your god

His signature, right?

[Dr Reducto]

It looks like everyone is gearing up for some sort of holy war.

I wonder when the atheists are going to form their own faction?

[Jawbone54]

You guys are really grasping at straws here. It's nice to know that you guys think that the threat of Christianity is comparable to that of Islam.

For all of you who are seemingly ignorant of Christian terminology, "Giving your life for Jesus," does not mean that you're literally fighting to the death. It means giving up certain parts of our human nature that causes us to sin and instead devoting our lives to showing God's love and reaching out to help others. To equate it with teaching young Muslim children to be suicide bombers is ridiculous.

Perhaps some of these people (especially the big lady) are using fanatical terminology, but to insist that they are promoting the same type of agenda as Muslim jihadists is almost laughable (if you weren't so serious about it).

The stick dancing bit is choreographed to music. It's really an artistic type of activity. It's not like they're handing them swords and guns, and teaching them how to fight. The camo pants are likely, as I've seen countless times, just tying into the theme of the camp.

This movie is going to be another liberal documentary desperately trying to equate Christians with radical Muslims. It's filth. It's garbage. It's ludicrous.

And I doubt a single Christian goes on a killing rampage because of it, unlike a certain cartoon-hating segment of European society.

And for the smug talking head towards the end who mentioned how radical Christians have taken over the White House...

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." ~ Patrick Henry, 1776

"Let divines and philosophers, statemen and patriots, unite their endeavours to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the deity...And leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." ~ Samuel Adams, October 4, 1790.

"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity... I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of god" ~ John Adams

"We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all our heart." ~ James Madison

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free government." - Charles Carrol, letter to James McHenry on november 4, 1800.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

For all of you who are seemingly ignorant of Christian terminology, "Giving your life for Jesus," does not mean that you're literally fighting to the death. It means giving up certain parts of our human nature that causes us to sin and instead devoting our lives to showing God's love and reaching out to help others. To equate it with teaching young Muslim children to be suicide bombers is ridiculous.

Perhaps some of these people (especially the big lady) are using fanatical terminology, but to insist that they are promoting the same type of agenda as Muslim jihadists is almost laughable (if you weren't so serious about it).

I think most Christians share your defination of "Giving your life for Jesus" and I don't think many people would have a problem with that. However, the question is what do the people in this particular documentary mean by it?

The documentary seems to suggest they attach a very different meaning to it but perhaps not.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, I would say you two were projecting ideas or beliefs that simple aren't apparent there because you WANT that to be true.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

You guys are really grasping at straws here. It's nice to know that you guys think that the threat of Christianity is comparable to that of Islam.

The stick dancing bit is choreographed to music. It's really an artistic type of activity. It's not like they're handing them swords and guns, and teaching them how to fight. The camo pants are likely, as I've seen countless times, just tying into the theme of the camp.

This movie is going to be another liberal documentary desperately trying to equate Christians with radical Muslims. It's filth. It's garbage. It's ludicrous.

And I doubt a single Christian goes on a killing rampage because of it, unlike a certain cartoon-hating segment of European society.

And for the smug talking head towards the end who mentioned how radical Christians have taken over the White House...

You have to admit it was some what disturbing. The children seemed fanatical as did some of the people. The odd camo gear. The chanting.

As far as I'm concerned once you cross a certain line it doesn't matter what religion, cult, or belief you hold to. If someone is prepared to blow themselves up they'll do it for whatever they believe in.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

You guys are really grasping at straws here. It's nice to know that you guys think that the threat of Christianity is comparable to that of Islam.

For all of you who are seemingly ignorant of Christian terminology, "Giving your life for Jesus," does not mean that you're literally fighting to the death. It means giving up certain parts of our human nature that causes us to sin and instead devoting our lives to showing God's love and reaching out to help others. To equate it with teaching young Muslim children to be suicide bombers is ridiculous.

There's a difference between "Giving your life to Jesus" and "Give up your life for Jesus". The video clearly states "Give up your life for Jesus".

"Giving your life to Jesus" - Dedicate you life to the teachings of Jesus Christ
"Give up your life for Jesus" - Die to defend Jesus and his teachings.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

There's a difference between "Giving your life to Jesus" and "Give up your life for Jesus". The video clearly states "Give up your life for Jesus".

"Giving your life to Jesus" - Dedicate you life to the teachings of Jesus Christ
"Give up your life for Jesus" - Die to defend Jesus and his teachings.

There's a difference between wearing camo and playing soldier and wearing a bomb around your waist playing suicidal civilian.

There's a difference between going to camp and getting a Bible and going to camp and getting hand grenades.

There's a difference between these fundamental Christians and terrorists.

"Giving your life to Jesus" - Dedicate your life to the teachings of Jesus.
"Giving up your life for Jesus" - Dedicate your life to the teachings of Jesus.

To extrapolate anything more is to succumb to paranoia. A fear propagated by ignorance, prevalent among the Christianaphobic.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

There's a difference between "Giving your life to Jesus" and "Give up your life for Jesus". The video clearly states "Give up your life for Jesus".

"Giving your life to Jesus" - Dedicate you life to the teachings of Jesus Christ
"Give up your life for Jesus" - Die to defend Jesus and his teachings.

In principle to 'Give up your life for Jesus' is a noble promise. Faced with adversity, Christians must be prepared to die as martyrs for their faith. This is quite different from suicide bombings. That is not matyrdom - that is murder.

I wish my faith was strong enough to live up to that promise.

"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church" Tertullian

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

There's a difference between wearing camo and playing soldier and wearing a bomb around your waist playing suicidal civilian.

There's a difference between going to camp and getting a Bible and going to camp and getting hand grenades.

There's a difference between these fundamental Christians and terrorists.

"Giving your life to Jesus" - Dedicate your life to the teachings of Jesus.
"Giving up your life for Jesus" - Dedicate your life to the teachings of Jesus.

To extrapolate anything more is to succumb to paranoia. A fear propagated by ignorance, prevalent among the Christianaphobic.

After seeing pre-teen kids cheering about "giving up your life for Jesus", I definitely becoming Christianaphobic. Damn crazy Jesus Camp.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by undotwa

In principle to 'Give up your life for Jesus' is a noble promise. Faced with adversity, Christians must be prepared to die as martyrs for their faith. This is quite different from suicide bombings. That is not matyrdom - that is murder.

I wish my faith was strong enough to live up to that promise.

"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church" Tertullian

Pre-teen kids have lots of faith in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too. How about we teach kids to give up their lives for Santa Claus.

[Spliffdaddy]

How about you name us something worth dying for then.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

How about you name us something worth dying for then.

Abortion rights. Evidently that's all.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

How about you name us something worth dying for then.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Abortion rights. Evidently that's all.

Touché

-t

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Touché

-t

Everything is all about perception.

[Railroader]

For the ignorant:

Ephesians 6:16-18

In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

"Sword of the Spirit". Metaphor. Symbolism. Not LITERAL sword!!!

Paul says to use the Word of God (aka. the bible) to defeat Satan's influence.

Sheesh.

[goMac]

Apparently the kids at "Jesus Camp" worship pictures of Bush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

I don't think Jesus would be too happy about that...

[Dark Helmet]

Looks like a terrorist training camp for a holy war to me. How long before one of those kids torches an abortion clinic or stabs a gay person?

[hyteckit]

No pre-teen or even early teens should be talking about sacraficing their lives for any God. They are not old enough to drink, to drive, or to vote.

These camps are committing statutory rape on these kids' mind, taking away their innocence.

[Railroader]

And the ignorant will remain purposefully ignorant.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

These camps are committing statutory rape on these kids' mind, taking away their innocence.

That's a new one.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

No pre-teen or even early teens should be talking about sacraficing their lives for any God. They are not old enough to drink, to drive, or to vote.

These camps are committing statutory rape on these kids' mind, taking away their innocence.

Although I have some opposition to camps made for the purpose of indoctrination, I think your appreciation of it is way off. I was educated a catholic, and on my own, I decided this religion did not answer most of my questions.

Some of those kids will make their own mind at some point in time.

[Kr0nos]

…It points the finger against a culture of hatred in which the uneducated are brainwashed to a level where their only solution in life becomes to kill themselves and kill others in the name of a God whose word, as transmitted by other men, has become their only certitude.

To be continued…

[Monique]

There are not 2 kind of people in the world; there are human beings inhabiting our planet. You want to be a loving Christian do not judge, don't try to evangilize the world on your way of thinking, accept that people are different but the same, gays and people from other religions are human beings.

Jesus is not coming back. Get a life and try just try to live it by helping others like opening a door, carrying heavy bags, giving groceries, toys, blankets to those in needs, not judging others, not putting a demonstration outside a legal clinic, not throwing insults at people that are in a difficult situation, not saying things like I love that guy but hate his sinful life when talking about gays (they are gays not by choice but because they are born that way and there is nothing absolutly nothing you can do to change them) and since they are born that way if you hate a part of them you hate all of them. I had a friend that said once gays people cannot be happy because he knew this guy who was gay and unhappy it is totally ridiculous.

So with that Jesus camp crap, you are brainwashing a bunch of kids into hate (hating anyone who is not like them), encouraging them to go and beat up anyone who is different (do you really think that there are no crazy among those kids that will grow up into hating more and more until they beat up to death someone like Andrew Shepeard), and what is that chanting about?

[RAILhead]

I like how Monique types in really long, run-on sentences. TEH HAWT!!11!

[Dakar]

It shows stamina.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Hmm... is there how religion is being taught?

Apple - Trailers - Jesus Camp - Trailer

It's sort of a brianwashing camp to me. Training the next army of Christians?

"Are you a part of it or not?"

To children, that sums up as a threat. You identify to this belief or your out. And when all these kids are cheering up, how can you differ, if not by becoming a dissident?

I retract my words from my previous post. This sort of camp and what it seems to represent is unacceptable to me.

[Monique]

I was able to see a preview, they (the organizers) are nuts and in urgent need of psychiatric help with very strong drugs.

[Kr0nos]

[voodoo]

Well I saw this documentary today. It was very even handed. I wonder if it is descriptive of Evangelicals in general or if this was just an extreme camp.

Also I am curious as to why they concentrate on the name 'Jesus' and not Christ, which is what he was. Jesus is but a name, common for the era. Christ is the Messiah, Son of God.

I know a bunch of Jesuses, but there is only one Christ.

Oh well. I recommend the documentary.

V

[Atomic Rooster]

Nuts

and tales from the crypt.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Well I saw this documentary today. It was very even handed. I wonder if it is descriptive of Evangelicals in general or if this was just an extreme camp.

Also I am curious as to why they concentrate on the name 'Jesus' and not Christ, which is what he was. Jesus is but a name, common for the era. Christ is the Messiah, Son of God.

I know a bunch of Jesuses, but there is only one Christ.

Oh well. I recommend the documentary.

V

In America, Jesus means a lot more than Christ. Maybe they were just trying to avoid annoying alliteration.

[hyteckit]

Jesus Christ, Lord Savior?

Should not use his name in vain.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Another projection.

The Bible talks about in the end Christians being murdered for admitting they believe. That denying Christ would save your "Life"

It says to give up ones life for the truth is something commendable.

It's not talking about suicide bombing.

I would never deny my faith to save my life here.

On the other hand, other religions have "get outs" that give you an ok to deny things about your religion to save your own life here on earth.

I don't think they were speaking of the Great Tribulation in the film.

• A few notes on the film: Jesus Camp was located near Devil's Lake, ND. Irony or birds of a feather?
• Ted Haggard, the mega church leader who admitted to being addicted to meth and "hanging" out with a gay masseuse is featured in the film.
• Jesus Camp has closed done for an undisclosed period of time due to the negative publicity it received in the film.

Haggard complained about how he and Evangelicals were portrayed in the film. The producers responded with a long rebuttal, part of which stated:

As for accusing us of portraying our protagonists (people whom we’ve grown close to over the past year) “sinister,” this is a disturbing charge. Perhaps Pastor Haggard is projecting his own point of view on the film’s characters, as we absolutely do not see them as such, and went out of our way too make sure that they were shown in a human, three-dimensional light. The children come across as kind, passionate and intelligent. Pastor Becky Fischer is a very likeable and real person, both on and off the screen.

Pastor Haggard is the only person in Jesus Camp who has a problem with how he was portrayed, and with the film as a whole. All the others in the movie feel it is accurate and fair and are excited about people seeing it. The subjects in the film very much identify themselves as part of the Evangelical family and are hurt and stung by Pastor Haggard's wholesale and somewhat venomous rejection of them and the film. While they do identify themselves as Charismatics and Pentecostals, they feel (and we agree) that they have much more in common with the greater Evangelical movement—their morals, values, and political beliefs—than they have differences. For Pastor Haggard to marginalize and dismiss them by labeling them a “sub-group” seems unfair, mean spirited and unproductive.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Well I saw this documentary today. It was very even handed. I wonder if it is descriptive of Evangelicals in general or if this was just an extreme camp.

Also I am curious as to why they concentrate on the name 'Jesus' and not Christ, which is what he was. Jesus is but a name, common for the era. Christ is the Messiah, Son of God.

I know a bunch of Jesuses, but there is only one Christ.

Oh well. I recommend the documentary.

V

nm.

[andi*pandi]

the woman's tone was very "you're either with us or against us." Which doesn't seem like something Jesus would condone. I can accept that her comment was taken out of context, perhaps. However, it seemed very extreme to me. Children writhing on the ground.

And no, this is not like the christian camp I went to for 8 years, which aside from prayers before meals and singing kumbayah etc, was pretty much like other camps and had swimming, relay races, and crafts. Jesus was there, sure, but it wasn't just about jesus. It was camp. No one was trying to "save" anyone. If they had, me and a friend would have been first, however they were wacky and open-minded enough to let the only Catholic and Jew in town go to their camp.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

the woman's tone was very "you're either with us or against us." Which doesn't seem like something Jesus would condone. I can accept that her comment was taken out of context, perhaps. However, it seemed very extreme to me.

Originally Posted by John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

He sounds pretty absolute there.

FWIW, I'll be working at a camp this summer playing in the band. I'm pretty excited.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

FWIW, I'll be working at a camp this summer playing in the band. I'm pretty excited.

Calm down, I doubt it'll be like American Pie: Band Camp.

[olePigeon]

I went to a Jesus Camp when I was about 6 or 7-years-old. Being a fat kid when I was little, I learned two very important things about Christian kids: If you're not white and skinny, they spit toothpaste in your hair, poor corn oil into your sleeping bag, and steal all your cloths. When you talk to a camp counselor, they tell you to forgive the other kids.. and then the other kids find out you talked to the counselor, so they superglue your fingers together when you're sleeping.

Christian Camp is awesome!

[andi*pandi]

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I went to a Jesus Camp when I was about 6 or 7-years-old. Being a fat kid when I was little, I learned two very important things about Christian kids: If you're not white and skinny, they spit toothpaste in your hair, poor corn oil into your sleeping bag, and steal all your cloths. When you talk to a camp counselor, they tell you to forgive the other kids.. and then the other kids find out you talked to the counselor, so they superglue your fingers together when you're sleeping.

Christian Camp is awesome!

Don't worry, the same thing would have happened in Atheist Camp. Kids are cruel and have no understanding of religion.

V

[Dakar²]

Well with exception to the counselor telling you to forgive the kids.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Well with exception to the counselor telling you to forgive the kids.

Not at all. They would have taken a fairly modern pedagogic stance on the matter, brought the two parties together and told them to shake hands and forgive and forget.

V

[Dakar²]

They're not going to do that repeatedly. Kids bound to get in trouble.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

They're not going to do that repeatedly. Kids bound to get in trouble.

Well, this is what happened in the secular camps and schools I went to. I did once go to a summer camp that had a Christian theme, but I don't remember any problems there (fighting or teasing).

At least none that I saw. I remember this American kid that was there (we were all about 7 or 8 years old), his name was Tim and he was the palest skinniest kid I've ever seen.

This was a Christian summer camp in northern Iceland by a beautful lake and forest. I don't think I ever saw him get out of the dormatory except to eat. I think he was the first American I ever met. Pale as a ghost. Kind of creepy.

V

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

his name was Tim and he was the palest skinniest kid I've ever seen.

Sounds like the kinda kid Olepigeon should have been.