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Woz vs. Jobs
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MacosNerd
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Mar 4, 2008, 03:04 PM
 
Being a slow work day has left me with a lot of time to ponder the great mysteries of the universe.

Such as the Woz/Jobs friendship. Are they still friends, or did some event sever their friendship. It seems more often then naught that Woz criticizes apple (usually justifiable) but I cannot recall the last time you saw the founding fathers of Apple together.

I remember that he was upset when the macintosh was first rolled out and was apple pushing the macintosh more then his beloved apple III and that Jobs took credit for one of woz's creations - not sure.

Thoughts, opinions, insights?
( Last edited by MacosNerd; Mar 4, 2008 at 03:17 PM. )
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 03:11 PM
 
they both suck.
     
osiris
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Mar 4, 2008, 03:20 PM
 
I get the impression that they are not still friends, or perhaps never were.
But they are both rich, and neither of them has ever sent me a birthday card or a nice little fruit basket with the chocolate covered macedamias.
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Mar 4, 2008, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
they both suck.


Jobs did things to Woz that bothered him, like when he cheated him out of money for Breakout. I don't think Woz dislikes Jobs or vice versa, but they're two very different individuals; it's probably hard to be Jobs' friend given his personality.

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Mar 4, 2008, 03:40 PM
 
Woz says they are not close friends, but they keep in touch.

The Seattle Times: Business & Technology: Steve Wozniak Q & A
Welcome to Woz.org

Also, IIRC Jobs still reserves a front row seat for Woz for every Macworld.

I also remember an interview/article a while back where Woz said that once in a blue moon they sit together over lunch or whatever. Woz would make a few product suggestions, and Jobs ignore them.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Mar 4, 2008, 03:53 PM
 
I've never been that big on Woz. Even though he has some hardware talent and is an all round nice guy he doesn't have the design sense nor can he see the bigger picture like jobs can.

The Danger device is a good example of almost there but without jobs it was clunky.
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 03:58 PM
 
I think they share a mutual respect and appreciation that they wouldn't be where they were if it weren't for each other. They aren't friends, they're "old friends".
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 04:03 PM
 
They made nearly perfect business partners at a nearly perfect moment in time. After that the differences in personalities and visions such kept them from being real close, I would assume. I don't think they dislike each other, but I also don't think they'd work together again. They are in very different places as individuals these days.

Its like the high school girlfriend (or boyfriend) that seemed so perfect at the time, and everything seemed to be roses and cupcakes for a good while. But 20 years later you meet up again at a reunion and realize that person is a total nutjob and you leave thanking whatever god you believe in that things worked out the way they did. But you still give em a hug when you see em.
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
I've never been that big on Woz. Even though he has some hardware talent and is an all round nice guy he doesn't have the design sense nor can he see the bigger picture like jobs can.
Well, knowing the big picture doesn't help if you can't actually design the thing.

Remember, the Apple I and Apple ][ guts were designed and programmed by Woz, almost completely alone, and these two products were completely revolutionary for their time.

Gotta have both aesthetic and business sense (Jobs), and engineering brilliance (Woz).
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
I think they share a mutual respect and appreciation that they wouldn't be where they were if it weren't for each other. They aren't friends, they're "old friends".
There's no question that Apple never would have become a company without both of their input. Woz is a genius designer but he never could have built a company to perpetuate his genius without Jobs. Jobs is a brilliant visionary, but he could not have built Apple without Woz's hardware. And anyone who has insufficient appreciation for everyone involved in Apple through 1985 needs to read folklore.org or order the book form (Revolution in the Valley) from Amazon.

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analogue SPRINKLES
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Mar 4, 2008, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Well, knowing the big picture doesn't help if you can't actually design the thing.

Remember, the Apple I and Apple ][ guts were designed and programmed by Woz, almost completely alone.

Gotta have both aesthetic and business sense (Jobs), and engineering brilliance (Woz).
Looking at Apple today though it shows that Woz can be easily replaced though as some of the best products have come out since he was gone.

Steve is the visionary and without him Woz hasn't had many successes.
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 04:33 PM
 
Sure, Woz isn't the only amazing hardware engineer on the face of the earth. He had largely nothing to do with the Mac team. But those who were responsible for the Mac's hardware looked up to Woz and describe his abilities as being far greater than theirs. And these were exceptional engineers on their own. That should tell you something.

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Mar 4, 2008, 05:05 PM
 
Woz is the guy you want as a friend, Jobs is the guy you want running your company.
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olePigeon
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Mar 4, 2008, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Steve is the visionary and without him Woz hasn't had many successes.
I think that's a fundamental difference between the two. I got to see Woz give a speech, and I don't think Woz cares one way or another about making a billion-dollar corporation, he's happy with what he has.

From what I understand, Woz has been offered his job back at Apple several times, and he's always refused it. He likes working on his own projects and challenging himself, not working for someone else and doing only one designated thing. Woz commented that Google is more like the old Apple before he left where the engineers are supposed to work on personal projects and put time aside for themselves to come up with unrelated ideas.
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Mar 4, 2008, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Looking at Apple today though it shows that Woz can be easily replaced though as some of the best products have come out since he was gone.

Steve is the visionary and without him Woz hasn't had many successes.
You miss the point.

At the time, in terms of the product development, it was Woz or nothing. Remember, he designed his initial stuff BEFORE Jobs hooked up with him, and before anyone else in the world designed anything comparable.

Apple exists because of the Apple I and Apple ][ computers. His brilliance with those has no application whatsoever to OS X or the iPod, but that's besides the point. Without Woz, Apple wouldn't even exist.

Before Apple, it was essentially an era when personal computers didn't even exist. Sure, 30 YEARS later Woz can be replaced (not that he has anything to do with the company in a real sense these days anyway), but try finding such an engineer back in the early 1970s.



In fact, I don't think you were even born yet back then.

Anyways, it would stand to reason that this is a big reason why Jobs still treats Woz with respect. Jobs isn't stupid enough to think engineers with Woz's talent were a dime a dozen back then.
( Last edited by Eug; Mar 4, 2008 at 05:32 PM. )
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Woz is the guy you want as a friend, Jobs is the guy you want running your company.
Maybe not. People give Steve Jobs too much credit to Apple's rise back from the screwed 1990's. The iMac e.g. was not a Jobs thing. He did more things right than wrong, though (iPOD, ITMS). Still he is a psychopath and a mobbing tyrant to the troops, and I wouldn't call that behavior something that a company should run on.

PB.
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Mar 4, 2008, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Sure, Woz isn't the only amazing hardware engineer on the face of the earth. He had largely nothing to do with the Mac team. But those who were responsible for the Mac's hardware looked up to Woz and describe his abilities as being far greater than theirs. And these were exceptional engineers on their own. That should tell you something.
Absolutely right.

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Mar 4, 2008, 06:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
Maybe not. People give Steve Jobs too much credit to Apple's rise back from the screwed 1990's. The iMac e.g. was not a Jobs thing. He did more things right than wrong, though (iPOD, ITMS). Still he is a psychopath and a mobbing tyrant to the troops, and I wouldn't call that behavior something that a company should run on.

PB.
Sure, it's just coincidence that Apple was about to die before, and then after Jobs came, everything he touched just happened to turn to gold. That seems likely.
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Mar 4, 2008, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
Maybe not. People give Steve Jobs too much credit to Apple's rise back from the screwed 1990's. The iMac e.g. was not a Jobs thing. He did more things right than wrong, though (iPOD, ITMS). Still he is a psychopath and a mobbing tyrant to the troops, and I wouldn't call that behavior something that a company should run on.
Speaking of important Apple CEOs, damn if I can't remember the quote, but there was a funny one by (I think) Spindler. Doesn't get a lot of credit because he wasn't there for very long, but he may have saved Apple. He said something like, "I wasn't CEO to fix a sinking ship, I was CEO to make sure it was sinking in at least the right direction."

I know I botched it, but it was funny and very true.
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MacosNerd  (op)
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Mar 4, 2008, 10:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
Still he is a psychopath and a mobbing tyrant to the troops, and I wouldn't call that behavior something that a company should run on.
I disagree. Based on what he himself said, when his own company fired him

I didn't see it then, but it turned out that getting fired from Apple was the best thing that could have ever happened to me. The heaviness of being successful was replaced by the lightness of being a beginner again, less sure about everything. It freed me to enter one of the most creative periods of my life.
I think he succeeded at apple (the 2nd go around) because he learned some very powerful lessons, that eventually helped apple succeed again.
     
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Mar 4, 2008, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
I've never been that big on Woz. Even though he has some hardware talent and is an all round nice guy he doesn't have the design sense nor can he see the bigger picture like jobs can.

The Danger device is a good example of almost there but without jobs it was clunky.
If Woz hadn't invented the first personal computer that was practical, Jobs would be pitching something else, and quite possibly not successfully. Woz has/had more than "some" hardware talent. He built machines from scratch, writing code and drawing schematics (that worked) by hand.

Where they parted ways was when Apple started to get big. Woz is not a business type and didn't care about the trappings of success; that doesn't mean that he can't see the big picture.
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Mar 5, 2008, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
Maybe not. People give Steve Jobs too much credit to Apple's rise back from the screwed 1990's. The iMac e.g. was not a Jobs thing. He did more things right than wrong, though (iPOD, ITMS). Still he is a psychopath and a mobbing tyrant to the troops, and I wouldn't call that behavior something that a company should run on.
I disagree. Apple has kept a lot of things from its early times, things you can find only at google and similar companies. `Rumor' has it, Apple keeps a few brilliant software engineers who can work all year long on whatever they want. Every once in a while you can see their work.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by `the iMac is not a Jobs thing:' Jobs also chose Jonathan Ive as head of design (who was chosen over a few famous designers). If you mean it in the way that the iMac was not the first all-in-one, you're right (the original Macintosh comes to mind, for instance, a project Jobs was involved in, and some other `old' computers). Neither was iTunes the first software for digital music management or iPod the world's first mp3 player. From all I've heard Jobs is a control freak, but also a perfectionist with a clear vision. I don't think there is a single project Jobs has not even at least approved. Apple's success is clearly a product of Job's vision of the future and brilliant marketing, despite his shortcomings in other areas. Apple's success is clearly a sign that Jobs is a good leader (but probably not a very pleasant one).
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MacosNerd  (op)
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Mar 5, 2008, 08:30 AM
 
If you want to get technical, even the original Macintosh computer was not his baby. He took the project over from raskin because he got booted from the lisa project.

Does that mean its any less his vision, of course not. Just because he did not sit there and design the computer did not mean his ideas and vision were not there.
     
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Mar 5, 2008, 08:52 AM
 
Right. That's why I said, he contributed to it as opposed to invented it. I think his strength is to recognize good ideas and good implementations of good ideas. Of course, he doesn't get everything right or things take time (e. g. the long evolution of OS X, the iPod, iTunes and Apple TV). From all I've heard, Woz is not so much into this angle. Of course, it's all according to his taste and vision which is good (because he seems to be right on the money with most of the things) and bad (because he can be a draconic ass).

So what? Apple is doing well, because of his decisions (and be it only that he hires/promotes brilliant people such as Bertrand Serlet or Jonathan Ive). I don't care so much whether or not he is `nice' to people he works with. I enjoy their products and it's good that Apple is doing very well, because it means, I will be able to buy their products many moons from now
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Andrew Stephens
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Mar 5, 2008, 09:13 AM
 
enough talk. Time to bring this puppy back OT.

Woz vs Jobs


Jobs talks tough but he's weak. Woz could have him inside two rounds. Woz has the hardest right hook in Silicon Valley.
     
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Mar 5, 2008, 10:01 AM
 
The trouble with Steve - Mar. 4, 2008

Jobs likes to make his own rules, whether the topic is computers, stock options, or even pancreatic cancer. The same traits that make him a great CEO drive him to put his company, and his investors, at risk.
     
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Mar 5, 2008, 10:14 AM
 
`… even pancreatic cancer.'
I mean he's good, but not that good
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Mar 5, 2008, 10:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
`… even pancreatic cancer.'
I mean he's good, but not that good
Yeah. He supposedly waited 9 months to make the decision to have surgery. Considering the situation he was in and the type of tumour he had, that was a poor decision IMO. It may not have affected him in the end, though.

P.S. The whole issue of disclosure is a tricky one. I won't criticize him for not disclosing it early on though.
     
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Mar 5, 2008, 10:24 AM
 
I'd like to see an iron cage deathmatch, no holds barred.
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Mar 5, 2008, 01:26 PM
 
There is no chin behind Woz's beard. There is only another fist.
     
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Mar 5, 2008, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens View Post
There is no chin behind Woz's beard. There is only another fist.
That's Chuck Norris, not Woz.
     
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Mar 5, 2008, 01:50 PM
 
zing
     
TravisReynolds
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Mar 5, 2008, 10:39 PM
 
well whats woz doing now?
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Mar 5, 2008, 11:20 PM
 
Playing Segway Polo
     
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Mar 6, 2008, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Sure, it's just coincidence that Apple was about to die before, and then after Jobs came, everything he touched just happened to turn to gold. That seems likely.
Like the Cube? The premature OSX GUI design? The premature departure of OS9 machines? His lifelong software support warranties, he tried to cancel? The lifelong .mac address he did cancel? The stupid handling of WebObjects? The stupid handling of Shake (killing off 80% of the market)? The flop of the last generation G3 iMacs? The - all in all with mobile market - failure of the G5? ...

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Mar 6, 2008, 08:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I'm not quite sure what you mean by `the iMac is not a Jobs thing:' Jobs also chose Jonathan Ive as head of design (who was chosen over a few famous designers). If you mean it in the way that the iMac was not the first all-in-one, you're right
It isn't. It's an Amelio thing. Jobs had nothing to say or do with it (he was an external OS consultant for Next->OSX migration at that time. )Of course he reaped the success after Amelio was gone
.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
(the original Macintosh comes to mind, for instance, a project Jobs was involved in, and some other `old' computers).
He was not involved in the original Mac project, either. In fact he tried to terrorize and disassemble the Mac team in favor of his Apple III/Lisa team. A gigantic flop and the stubborn handling of all that led to his firing from Apple.


Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Neither was iTunes the first software for digital music management or iPod the world's first mp3 player. From all I've heard Jobs is a control freak, but also a perfectionist with a clear vision. I don't think there is a single project Jobs has not even at least approved. Apple's success is clearly a product of Job's vision of the future and brilliant marketing, despite his shortcomings in other areas. Apple's success is clearly a sign that Jobs is a good leader (but probably not a very pleasant one).
As I said he did more things right than wrong. But check out books and what former Apple people have to say about him. The guy is some psycho. I remember him running around at some Apple fair where ATI announced they'd do the video cards in the new Apple towers. Jobs was furious, inked the "ATI" away on the presentation material and tried to switch to another company just to show them what he could. Years later nearly the same with the PPC->intel switch, I saw some interview with the IBM / Mot guys they said enough about that sort of erratic business style.

PB.
( Last edited by Powerbook; Mar 6, 2008 at 09:22 PM. )
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Mar 6, 2008, 08:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
Like the Cube? The premature OSX GUI design? The premature departure of OS9 machines? His lifelong software support warranties, he tried to cancel? The lifelong .mac address he did cancel? The stupid handling of WebObjects? The stupid handling of Shake (killing off 80% of the market)? The flop of the last generation G3 iMacs? The - all in all with mobile market - failure of the G5? ...
OS X's GUI has matured from what it was originally, BFD. Premature departure of OS 9 machines? It was still the default OS until 2001 - long enough for me. Lifelong .Mac addresses - yeah that was unfortunate but Apple's in business to make money. I don't know much about WO being handled poorly, or Shake, so I can't comment there. Flop of the last generation G3 iMacs? They were more than ready to be retired. And the failure of the G5 in notebooks wasn't Apple's fault.

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Mar 6, 2008, 08:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
Like the Cube?
Great machine without a market.

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
The premature OSX GUI design?
Pre-mature? It had to start somewhere. At the beta and 1.0 it was slightly inferior to OS 9, but it laid the groundwork for what has become vastly superior in it's latest incarnation.

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
The premature departure of OS9 machines?
Not at all. OS 9 should have been killed off by OS 8. Copland anyone?

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
His lifelong software support warranties, he tried to cancel?
Tried? Huh? I can't recall this. Link me please.

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
The lifelong .mac address he did cancel?
This is bandied a lot. Steve never said free for life. Yes, it sucks that .Mac is now a paid service, but services do cost money.

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
The stupid handling of WebObjects?
Does anyone really care? WebObjects were great for it's time, but vastly overpriced. The pricecut was too little too late and better technologies have superseded it.

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
The stupid handling of Shake (killing off 80% of the market)?
Stupid handling of Shake? What? The way that it's now actually affordable for everyone?

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
The flop of the last generation G3 iMacs?
Scraping the bottom of the barrel now are we?

Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
The - all in all with mobile market - failure of the G5...
I don't get it? No G5 PowerBooks? The failure of IBM to deliver a mobile G5 is the reason we are on Intel now. A win win for everyone!

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