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Skypat · 07:19 AM

Hi

I will order a new power mac soon. I have a pretty noisy Power Mac G4 MDD right now and I would like my next computer to be as silent as possible. I've read that installing a nvidia 6800 can be problematic ... is the card really loud ? Always ? Would an X800 be more silent ?

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences

powertrippin · May 10, 2005, 08:44 AM

Hello. For answers to these types of questions, it's helpful to use the search button. From other threads, I have found out that hte X800 is much much quieter than the 6800.

Skypat · May 10, 2005, 04:16 PM

I did thank you but I did not find satisfying answers and I was looking for more comments about that topic ;-)

Lateralus · May 10, 2005, 04:35 PM

I see no reason to go with the 6800 unless you need to drive to 30" displays. The X800 is much smaller, it is quieter, it only occupies one slot, and it is faster. In addition to that, the ability to enable FSAA and other goodies in games through ATI's control panel makes the X800 a far better gaming card than the 6800 as far as image quality.

Skypat · May 11, 2005, 04:25 AM

Thanks Lateralus ... too bad Apple does not propose the X800 as an option (bto).

Big Mac · May 11, 2005, 04:34 AM

Yeah, we have observed that Apple's BTO graphics card options are presently very lame - even lamer than usual.

Leonard · May 11, 2005, 11:06 AM

Interesting, Apple, has added the X800XT as an item on the Apple Online Store under Displays, but hasn't added it as a BTO option.

jasonsRX7 · May 11, 2005, 11:30 AM

I have a 6800 and while it's louder than I would like, it's not terrible by any means (it's certainly less noisy than my chirping power supply). I chose it over the X800 because I wasn't concerned with any performance differences, but wanted to make sure I didn't have any non-Apple driver issues arise. I've also heard that the ATI drivers install some kind of ATI control panel and I don't want any of that mess on my system. If you're a gamer you probably want that stuff, though.

Lateralus · May 11, 2005, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Skypat

Thanks Lateralus ... too bad Apple does not propose the X800 as an option (bto).

Whats funny is that you can buy a retail copy of the X800 for less than Apple charges to BTO the 6800. So, I'd stick with the stock card and buy the X800 from a reseller, then sell the stock 9650 on eBay for $100-something.

So your end result will be having a faster, quieter card with all the goodies that come in a retail box, for around $100-150 less than it would cost to BTO the 6800.

Here's a link to the X800 on Buy.com for $466. Look around and you can find New Member coupons for $15 or so off your first order.

Eug Wanker · May 11, 2005, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Leonard

Interesting, Apple, has added the X800XT as an item on the Apple Online Store under Displays, but hasn't added it as a BTO option.

$499

powertrippin · May 11, 2005, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

I have a 6800 and while it's louder than I would like, it's not terrible by any means (it's certainly less noisy than my chirping power supply). I chose it over the X800 because I wasn't concerned with any performance differences, but wanted to make sure I didn't have any non-Apple driver issues arise. I've also heard that the ATI drivers install some kind of ATI control panel and I don't want any of that mess on my system. If you're a gamer you probably want that stuff, though.

That doesn't make any sense. The X800 is a faster quieter card that's cheaper. The ATi controller is nice, you don't ever have to touch it, but if you want to futz with things you CAN.

jasonsRX7 · May 11, 2005, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by powertrippin

That doesn't make any sense. The X800 is a faster quieter card that's cheaper. The ATi controller is nice, you don't ever have to touch it, but if you want to futz with things you CAN.

Yeah, I know it sounds odd... but having seen the bloatware control panels that ATI's Windows drivers install, and the horrible mess they make of the display properties (like 10 tabs with a bazillion options) I didn't want to take the chance of the OS X drivers being anything like that.

Lateralus · May 11, 2005, 11:59 AM

So you'd rather have a $500 card that you can't use most of the capabilities of because you don't want to install a piece of software?

Odd...

UnixMac · May 11, 2005, 12:04 PM

if your going to game a lot, the X800 if you want OpenGL performance and such, 6800 (as NV's drives mature, it's going to see a major improvement in OpenGL performance).

jasonsRX7 · May 11, 2005, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

So you'd rather have a $500 card that you can't use most of the capabilities of because you don't want to install a piece of software?

Yeah, pretty much... The only capability I cared about was being able to drive the monitor. If the 5200 that came with my system could have done it, I would have just used that. Maybe I'm still living with the whole Windows concept of too many 3rd party drivers causing problems. So how are the ATI drivers anyway? Are they pretty clean to install, not a lot of useless bloat crap? Skypat might benefit from knowing more about them, too.

powertrippin · May 11, 2005, 12:27 PM

Here's what you see in the control panel:

Just shows some info about what display settings you're using, etc.

This is the only panel you can mess with. You can just enable FSAA and Trilinear filtering on games that don't natively support it, or adjust image quality to speed. That's it.

A+++++ drivers and integration.

I'm also really really digging ATIccelerator, a real time, on-the-fly, no restart required overclocking utility. It's great. http://thomas.perrier.name/software/...leratorII.html

- Rob

Lateralus · May 11, 2005, 12:44 PM

You don't get many options in the ATI Displays panel with the 9600XT. Here are shots of all the options with my 9800 Pro SE:

greenamp · May 11, 2005, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Whats funny is that you can buy a retail copy of the X800 for less than Apple charges to BTO the 6800. So, I'd stick with the stock card and buy the X800 from a reseller, then sell the stock 9650 on eBay for $100-something.

So your end result will be having a faster, quieter card with all the goodies that come in a retail box, for around $100-150 less than it would cost to BTO the 6800.

Here's a link to the X800 on Buy.com for $466. Look around and you can find New Member coupons for $15 or so off your first order.

Just ordered mine today!

Also, Newegg has rufurb X800's for $390. I opted to speand a few dollars more for new and a full warranty though.

Big Mac · May 11, 2005, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by powertrippin

Here's what you see in the control panel:

Just shows some info about what display settings you're using, etc.
This is the only panel you can mess with. You can just enable FSAA and Trilinear filtering on games that don't natively support it, or adjust image quality to speed. That's it.

A+++++ drivers and integration.

I'm also really really digging ATIccelerator, a real time, on-the-fly, no restart required overclocking utility. It's great. http://thomas.perrier.name/software/...leratorII.html

- Rob

Was I supposed to get a utility for my 9800XT? Or did you install it?

Skypat · May 11, 2005, 04:05 PM

Do you think the quality of the Nvidia drivers is superior to the ATI ones ? Which card is the most optimized for OSX?

powertrippin · May 11, 2005, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

You don't get many options in the ATI Displays panel with the 9600XT.

Hey, you're right! No fair! I only get the useful one!

powertrippin · May 11, 2005, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Was I supposed to get a utility for my 9800XT? Or did you install it?

ATi Displays

Your welcome.

powertrippin · May 11, 2005, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Skypat

Do you think the quality of the Nvidia drivers is superior to the ATI ones ? Which card is the most optimized for OSX?

Considering ATi is smacking nvidia with a big stick right now, I'd say ATi's are a bit better. Funny, I remember hating ATi and lusting after nVidea hardware just 4-5 years ago. Times change!

Lateralus · May 11, 2005, 09:13 PM

nVidia got cocky and fumbled. And they did it at the worst possible time because ATi was letting the Radeon 9700 and CATALYST loose when they did it. I don't think nVidia has been able to retain the lead since.

Kristoff · May 12, 2005, 12:39 AM

Ran that ATI Displays thingy on my new Dual 2.0 (9600) and it says "Unknown ATI Display" and none of the fancy crap shows up except it lets me rotate the screen.

Lateralus · May 12, 2005, 01:00 AM

Did you install the drivers as well?

Kristoff · May 12, 2005, 01:12 AM

Um...should I on a new machine? Or should I use the ones that came with Tiger?

Sorry, but I've always just used the ones that come from Apple....what's the benefit of using the other ones?

Kristoff · May 12, 2005, 01:14 AM

And the 9600 isn't listed as being supported.

I'm hesitant to install something made for 10.3.6 on Tiger.....

Edit: The release notes say not to install the drivers on Tiger.

Lateralus · May 12, 2005, 01:21 AM

https://support.ati.com/ics/support/...ge&folderID=27

Kristoff · May 12, 2005, 03:09 AM

uh, yeah...like I said, that link eventually leads to this text:

This installer and its core driver set are not compatible with Tiger, Mac OS X 10.4. Tiger already includes its own versions of the ATI core drivers.

powertrippin · May 12, 2005, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Kristoff

And the 9600 isn't listed as being supported.

Read more carefully. The list of cards are hte 'retail' cards. The 9600 Pro and 9600XT were OEM cards, so they're all supported. Basically anything that says 'radeon' is supported.

powertrippin · May 12, 2005, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Kristoff

uh, yeah...like I said, that link eventually leads to this text:

This installer and its core driver set are not compatible with Tiger, Mac OS X 10.4. Tiger already includes its own versions of the ATI core drivers.

You must not be clicking on the right buttons.

Click on 'mac drivers', then click on OS 10.4, then click download ATi Displays.

jasonsRX7 · May 12, 2005, 12:49 PM

Thanks for the pictures. The ATI drivers don't seem nearly as bad as they are on the pc, assuming those screenshots are from a separate application and not something the drivers integrate into System Preferences.

However, the previous 8 posts indicate the very thing I wanted to avoid, and one reason why I got the 6800 over the X800... Some of you are having a little trouble getting the right drivers, or finding ones that are compatible with Tiger. What would you do if ATI had issues with Tiger and hadn't released compatible drivers yet? Now, I haven't been in the Mac world for too long, so I'm not really sure to what degree the OS supports video cards that it doesn't have a native driver for. Does it fall back to a generic driver, or use a similar products driver instead?

powertrippin · May 12, 2005, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Some of you are having a little trouble getting the right drivers, or finding ones that are compatible with Tiger. What would you do if ATI had issues with Tiger and hadn't released compatible drivers yet? Now, I haven't been in the Mac world for too long, so I'm not really sure to what degree the OS supports video cards that it doesn't have a native driver for. Does it fall back to a generic driver, or use a similar products driver instead?

The only people having those problems are the 'tards who don't click on the right link. There are no problems or issues, you are still using apple's drivers. The ATI displays control panel just allows you to tweak the vid card. There's no need to do anything else. What you are seeing are people going to ATi's website, clicking on the wrong things, and winding up somewhere (who ****ing knows really) that says it's incompatible with tiger.

- Rob

Lateralus · May 12, 2005, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Thanks for the pictures. The ATI drivers don't seem nearly as bad as they are on the pc, assuming those screenshots are from a separate application and not something the drivers integrate into System Preferences.

However, the previous 8 posts indicate the very thing I wanted to avoid, and one reason why I got the 6800 over the X800... Some of you are having a little trouble getting the right drivers, or finding ones that are compatible with Tiger. What would you do if ATI had issues with Tiger and hadn't released compatible drivers yet? Now, I haven't been in the Mac world for too long, so I'm not really sure to what degree the OS supports video cards that it doesn't have a native driver for. Does it fall back to a generic driver, or use a similar products driver instead?

*Sigh*

jasonsRX7 · May 13, 2005, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by powertrippin

There are no problems or issues, you are still using apple's drivers. The ATI displays control panel just allows you to tweak the vid card. There's no need to do anything else.

Well that's good to know. I've just never bought a non Apple-branded video card before, and didn't know what to expect. I don't like the ATI drivers on the PC at all, and didn't want to get into anything like that on the Mac either. I'm a minimalist, I guess.

I'm wondering though, where you guys are seeing that the X800 is faster than the 6800? I've read reviews and benchmarks for both the PC versions and Mac versions, and the two seem to leap frog each other in most tests, with the 6800 coming out in front in the majority. I found a review on Barefeats that was updated in February where the X800 stomped the 6800 in almost everything, but a recent review of the 9650 that also tests the X800 and 6800 shows the two being much more even.

If those results are correct, I'm guessing there have been some major driver improvements from nVidia that are responsible for the 6800's turnaround.

powertrippin · May 13, 2005, 11:44 AM

The Nvidia is also a non apple branded video card...

jasonsRX7 · May 13, 2005, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by powertrippin

The Nvidia is also a non apple branded video card...

By that I meant that it came in a grey and white box with the Apple logo on it, sold and supported and warranted by Apple. I realize that Apple doesn't manufacture the cards themselves.

Skypat · May 15, 2005, 06:32 PM

Just a very practical question : once you have installed physically your new video card in the G5, do you need to install a software or is it already recognized by the mac ?

My plan is to install the X800 card immediately after I have opened the Apple box

So the X800 will be the first card the mac boots on.

Lateralus · May 15, 2005, 06:41 PM

The nVidia and ATI drivers are already built into the OS. Pop her in and go.

Skypat · May 15, 2005, 06:43 PM

Thanks Lateralus

Cadaver · 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

I have a 6800 and while it's louder than I would like, it's not terrible by any means (it's certainly less noisy than my chirping power supply). I chose it over the X800 because I wasn't concerned with any performance differences, but wanted to make sure I didn't have any non-Apple driver issues arise. I've also heard that the ATI drivers install some kind of ATI control panel and I don't want any of that mess on my system. If you're a gamer you probably want that stuff, though.

Actually, you aren't required to install the control panel at all. It'll run just fine with the Apple stock drivers. This isn't like you'd find on Windows with various driver versions, etc. One driver, an optional control panel for tweaking FSAA, etc, and that's it.

Kristoff · May 17, 2005, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by powertrippin

You must not be clicking on the right buttons.

Click on 'mac drivers', then click on OS 10.4, then click download ATi Displays.

No, I did that. I got 4.5.1 and when I launch it, it says "Unknown ATI Display" and only gives me an info screen and the advanced button where I can flip the display. This is even after 10.4.1 which has updated ATI drivers. So, I guess the 4.5.1 version of ATI Displays doesn't support the 9600 that is coming in the new PM G5s.

Kristoff · May 17, 2005, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by powertrippin

The only people having those problems are the 'tards who don't click on the right link. There are no problems or issues, you are still using apple's drivers. The ATI displays control panel just allows you to tweak the vid card. There's no need to do anything else. What you are seeing are people going to ATi's website, clicking on the wrong things, and winding up somewhere (who ****ing knows really) that says it's incompatible with tiger.

- Rob

Ok, Rob.....thanks for calling me a tard. That's really cool.

So, hang with me here so you can follow what my issue is.
I only ever said that the ATI drivers on ATIs website are not compatible with Tiger (according to their very own release notes).
I didn't say the card wasn't, as we all know Apple ships drivers for their OE cards with the OS.

To see where I reached that conclusion here's what I did:

First, I went to:
http://www.ati.com

Then click "Drivers and Software"

https://support.ati.com/ics/support/...ge&folderID=27

Then click "Mac OS Drivers and Software"

https://support.ati.com/ics/support/...ge&folderID=27

The click "Mac OS X 10.4.x"

https://support.ati.com/ics/support/...ge&folderID=27

Then click "ATI DISPLAYS 4.5.1"

I downloaded it, and it says "Unknown Display"

Then, Lateralus said "Did you install the drivers as well?"

So, I went back to the same place, and the only driver listed is "ati-radeon-10-3-6-jan2005.dmg"

Whose release notes are here:

http://www2.ati.com/drivers/ati-rade...05-readme.html

which clearly say:

"This installer and its core driver set are not compatible with Tiger, Mac OS X 10.4. Tiger already includes its own versions of the ATI core drivers. Any future updates will be available on the ATI web site."

So, I don't know who you are calling a 'tard.

Now 10.4.1 has provided a newer ATI driver that exhibits the same issue with ATI Displays 4.5.1.

So if you have some magical link, please provide that instead of calling me a tard and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about when all I have done is use information from ATI's release notes.

rhogue islander · May 17, 2005, 12:42 PM

I'm in a similar position. I have a Dual 2.0 G5 with a 9800 Pro Mac Edition.

I'd like to upgrade the video card and am having trouble deciding btwn the X800 XT and the 6800 GT ddl. Both cards are nearly twice as fast as my current 9800 pro, so either one is a win speedwise I reckon. OpenGL support may be stronger with the Nvidia which could be a factor with programs like Maya, etc.

If Nvidia provided the same override control panel that Ati does I'd be all over the 6800 GT as I have one in my PC and absolutely love it.

I don't care that the Nvidia card takes up two slots, but would like the ability to apply AA and AF selectively to the various games that I play, which the Nvidia lacks.

A bit of a conundrum, I guess. What to do?

powertrippin · May 17, 2005, 02:42 PM

I upgraded to Tiger 2 days ago, and I noticed my ATI displays control panel was no longer in my system preferences panel. I clicked on the website listed above (thanks Kristoff!), downloaded it, installed it, and it works great.

If I were you, I'd go with the X800. It's cheaper, a LOT quieter, smaller, and in many cases, faster. Leave the 6800 for people who are afraid of a control panel like JasonsRX7.

jasonsRX7 · May 17, 2005, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by powertrippin

Leave the 6800 for people who are afraid of a control panel like JasonsRX7.

I'm ok with control panels as long as they don't replace or integrate with the OS's built in display settings. I hate what the ATI drivers do in Windows and having never seen them on a Mac (at the time), I didn't want to risk it. Since all you guys say that they don't integrate, and aren't even required, I'd probably be fine with an X800. I give two sh*ts about speed, as long as Expose isn't choppy.

powertrippin · May 17, 2005, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

I'm ok with control panels as long as they don't replace or integrate with the OS's built in display settings. I hate what the ATI drivers do in Windows and having never seen them on a Mac (at the time), I didn't want to risk it. Since all you guys say that they don't integrate, and aren't even required, I'd probably be fine with an X800. I give two sh*ts about speed, as long as Expose isn't choppy.

Then get a 9650 or a 9800. You don't need a monster card for expose, only for your e-penis bragging rights.