[besson3c]

Is ranking of women and inferences that their value relates to their appearance sexist? Can you rank and be unattractive yourself, like Donald Trump does?

I don't want to make this thread about Trump, I'm just using him as a recent example, this kind of thing happens frequently though...

[osiris]

Apparently ranking women is sexist, so I hear. So is admiring a woman's beauty, physique, etc anything superficial that pisses less attractive/more intelligent women off, at least from my experience.

imo being unattractive yourself is irrelevant - you can admire a magnificent work of art without being a magnificent work of art yourself.

Trump is an anomaly and an ass, and ruins sexism for the rest of us. But when it comes down to it, if you are ugly as sin but are filthy rich, you'll likely have an attractive mate. Which doesn't say much for feminism or sexism.

[besson3c]

There's a problem in my books when the first thing that comes to mind or is articulated is the attractiveness or ugliness of a person. It suggests that their value is based on their looks - good or bad. This is also a bigger trap with women.

Rating in and of itself is not bad, it's the objectification that is a concern.

[subego]

I feel like "rank" is being used in a way I'm not familiar.

Rank in what context? Ranking skill based on appearance seems dunb.

[osiris]

I take ranking as a way of identifying skills and placing them in some sort of logical order to compare others against. People are against this these days.

[subego]

Well, if one is ranking skill based on appearance, I can see being against it on stupidity grounds.

If I'm ranking appearance based on appearance, that's a different story.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by osiris 

Apparently ranking women is sexist, so I hear. So is admiring a woman's beauty, physique, etc anything superficial that pisses less attractive/more intelligent women off, at least from my experience.

imo being unattractive yourself is irrelevant - you can admire a magnificent work of art without being a magnificent work of art yourself.

Apparently saying they're "ladies", when addressing a group of women, is sexist. I was recently castigated for using the word.

Also "women" is problematic, it should be spelled womyn. (No, I'm not joking, but I wish I was.)

[ort888]

This is one of my big pet peeves on the internet. Pretty much anytime any woman is being discussed, regardless of the reason, someone without fail will always start discussing how attractive she is, and whether or not they would have sex with her.

If she's attractive, it's always, wow, she may have murdered her family with an ax, but she sure is hot... or... Okay, her theory on thermal dynamics is interesting, but woof, are we sure that's even a woman? I can't tell? Look at her huge man hands. LOL...

It's sexist because it assumes that a woman primary place in the world is to be attractive and f**kable for men.

If it's discussion purely about attractiveness and people are ranking women who put themselves out into the world as someone who cashes in on their attractiveness and is a public figure I think it's not a big deal.

But at the same time, we should always strive to conduct ourselves as a gentleman in public. And yes, the internet is the public.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by subego 

Well, if one is ranking skill based on appearance, I can see being against it on stupidity grounds.

If I'm ranking appearance based on appearance, that's a different story.

Well, what are you ranking on - a beauty contest or a pie baking contest? We must be honest here.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Apparently saying they're "ladies", when addressing a group of women, is sexist. I was recently castigated for using the word.

Also "women" is problematic, it should be spelled womyn. (No, I'm not joking, but I wish I was.)

To be fair, I think you may have missed the memo on that one. "Ladies" has been frowned on for a good 20 years.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ort888 

This is one of my big pet peeves on the internet. Pretty much anytime any woman is being discussed, regardless of the reason, someone without fail will always start discussing how attractive she is, and whether or not they would have sex with her.

If she's attractive, it's always, wow, she may have murdered her family with an ax, but she sure is hot... or... Okay, her theory on thermal dynamics is interesting, but woof, are we sure that's even a woman? I can't tell? Look at her huge man hands. LOL...

It's sexist because it assumes that a woman primary place in the world is to be attractive and f**kable for men.

If it's discussion purely about attractiveness and people are ranking women who put themselves out into the world as someone who cashes in on their attractiveness and is a public figure I think it's not a big deal.

But at the same time, we should always strive to conduct ourselves as a gentleman in public. And yes, the internet is the public.

Exactly what I'm driving at.

Also, how about we leave this thread for attitudes and not simply language? Otherwise, this might devolve into a generic PC thread.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by subego 

To be fair, I think you may have missed the memo on that one. "Ladies" has been frowned on for a good 20 years.

The issue is that just 6 months ago the very same womyn were "ladies" and now they aren't. It makes all this bullshit involving gender labels laughable, to the point I refuse to take those people seriously anymore.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by ort888 

This is one of my big pet peeves on the internet. Pretty much anytime any woman is being discussed, regardless of the reason, someone without fail will always start discussing how attractive she is, and whether or not they would have sex with her.

You wander in some very peculiar online circles.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

The issue is that just 6 months ago the very same womyn were "ladies" and now they aren't. It makes all this bullshit involving gender labels laughable, to the point I refuse to take those people seriously anymore.

There is a huge difference between the language PC policing and the stuff I'm talking about, let's not blur the two together.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Apparently saying they're "ladies", when addressing a group of women, is sexist. I was recently castigated for using the word.

Somehow 'ladies' just rolls off the tongue better though. Also, isn't it a fair equivalent to 'gentleman'? As in ladies is to women as gentlemen is to men. Right?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Also "women" is problematic, it should be spelled womyn. (No, I'm not joking, but I wish I was.)

Can you elaborate on this please?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Is ranking of women and inferences that their value relates to their appearance sexist?

Since I make it a point to not associate with or acknowledge individuals or groups who do this, unless it's a unique case involving a beauty contest (which I seldom waste my time with anyway), I fail to see what the ire is about. Just ignore those people.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Can you elaborate on this please?

At the really radical end of feminism, you get ladies who want to remove "man/men" from "woman/women".

The result is "womyn"

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Somehow 'ladies' just rolls off the tongue better though. Also, isn't it a fair equivalent to 'gentleman'? As in ladies is to women as gentlemen is to men. Right?

That's the way I use it, but I suppose I try too hard to be a gentleman.

Can you elaborate on this please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn

oh, and this one too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herstory

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by subego 

At the really radical end of feminism, you get ladies who want to remove "man/men" from "woman/women".

The result is "womyn"

It's quickly becoming the standard within gender studies.

[subego]

For whatever reason, femayl isn't catching on though.

[subego]

As an aside, can someone tell me what the **** this thread is actually supposed to be about?

It doesn't take much to get me on the men-are-pigs war chariot, but it's hopefully to do something other than reiterate men are pigs.

I mean, men are pigs is already on the chariot. Give me something I can kill.

[subego]

Come at me, shitlords!

POW! Right in the privilege.

[osiris]

Harrumph!!

[Jawbone54]

Men may very well be pigs, but women (sorry, womyn) can be absolute devils too.

Also, this movement where people are desperately seeking for sexism in every story and conversation so they can prove how progressive they are is one of my least favorite fads of this century. People need to get over themselves.

[andi*pandi]

I don't mind Ladies in certain contexts (manners), but it does have a sense of the diminutive about it, which gentlemen doesn't have. Ladies who lunch (because they don't have jobs, careers, and have time to kill). Being ladylike implies being quiet, well-behaved, non-controversial, and in a sense, subservient to the gentlemen. Ladies retire at dinner so gentlemen can have their cigars and talk saucy/politics/important stuff. Gentlemen can be polite, but still rule the world.

As a young woman, I was very annoyed by a memo which went up at work, addressed by a male boss to an entirely female staff. It was addressed, Girls, please do blah blah blah... despite that the majority of the girls were grandmothers. I found it patronizing in that context, as compared to a group of friends having a "girls night." Ladies would have been only marginally better, but "Attn all staff:" would have been more professional.

Sexism is the broad umbrella to which implying pretty girls can't be smart and smart girls can't be pretty, is but a subsection.

womyn/herstory isn't a new phenomena, but maybe it's being reclaimed. Semantics doesn't seem a way to solve the problem, aside from grabbing attention by being dramatic.

[subego]

Originally Posted by osiris 

Harrumph!!

Nice cis hominem.

Reported.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

I don't mind Ladies in certain contexts (manners), but it does have a sense of the diminutive about it, which gentlemen doesn't have. Ladies who lunch (because they don't have jobs, careers, and have time to kill). Being ladylike implies being quiet, well-behaved, non-controversial, and in a sense, subservient to the gentlemen. Ladies retire at dinner so gentlemen can have their cigars and talk saucy/politics/important stuff. Gentlemen can be polite, but still rule the world.

As a young woman, I was very annoyed by a memo which went up at work, addressed by a male boss to an entirely female staff. It was addressed, Girls, please do blah blah blah... despite that the majority of the girls were grandmothers. I found it patronizing in that context, as compared to a group of friends having a "girls night." Ladies would have been only marginally better, but "Attn all staff:" would have been more professional.

I'm on board with all that.

Also, equal pay for equally-skilled, educated, experienced employees is a no-brainer.

Sexism is the broad umbrella to which implying pretty girls can't be smart and smart girls can't be pretty, is but a subsection.

womyn/herstory isn't a new phenomena, but maybe it's being reclaimed. Semantics doesn't seem a way to solve the problem, aside from grabbing attention by being dramatic.

Again, I'm on board with andi. Certain issues deserve a reaction from culture, but they don't deserve an overreaction.

For everything that conservatives under-react to, progressives often overreact (and vice versa, depending on the issue).

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

I don't mind Ladies in certain contexts (manners), but it does have a sense of the diminutive about it, which gentlemen doesn't have. Ladies who lunch (because they don't have jobs, careers, and have time to kill). Being ladylike implies being quiet, well-behaved, non-controversial, and in a sense, subservient to the gentlemen. Ladies retire at dinner so gentlemen can have their cigars and talk saucy/politics/important stuff. Gentlemen can be polite, but still rule the world.

My perspective is that everyone possesses an inherent nobility and I treat them that way (unless they provide evidence to the contrary). Women are ladies, men are gentlemen; it's a mild, yet respectful, nod to chivalry that I've maintained for several decades and I'm not going to change now. Reading more into it than that, which some people have done, is simply a search for offense that is in no way intended. I also use "Sir" and "Ma'am", regardless of whether a person is pushing all of their Earthly possessions in a shopping cart or had just stepped out of the back of a half-million dollar Bentley.

"A noble soul alone can noble souls attract; And knows alone, as ye, to hold them." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Sexism is the broad umbrella to which implying pretty girls can't be smart and smart girls can't be pretty, is but a subsection.

I agree, and it's utter BS.

womyn/herstory isn't a new phenomena, but maybe it's being reclaimed. Semantics doesn't seem a way to solve the problem, aside from grabbing attention by being dramatic.

People starved for attention that they feel is entitled.

[subego]

When it comes to chivalry (which I adhere to), or using "sir" and "ma'am" (which I do, glad I'm not alone ), I've found only total assholes react badly.

Normal people react badly to "ladies". I have full faith in your intent, but I'm not kidding when I say this attitude predates outrage culture by at least 15 years.

You know how someone will affect a lisp as shorthand for a gay guy? Around here, people will say "ladies" as shorthand for someone who thinks they're a player with the... ladies, but really has no clue.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by subego 

Normal people react badly to "ladies". I have full faith in your intent, but I'm not kidding when I say this attitude predates outrage culture by at least 15 years.

You know how someone will affect a lisp as shorthand for a gay guy? Around here, people will say "ladies" as shorthand for someone who thinks they're a player with the... ladies, but really has no clue.

I suspect that's regional. In the South, normal people don't react badly to "ladies", which goes along with my theory that people in other areas of the country are wound way too tight for living and are manufacturing things to be upset about.

[besson3c]

Have you guys ever had colleagues that would go on about how various women rank, and suggesting that they only want to date women that are a certain rank? How did you deal with this, both from a personal and moral standpoint but also in a professional environment?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

We ranked the female USSC justices the other day but no one mentioned anything about "hotness".

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

We ranked the female USSC justices the other day but no one mentioned anything about "hotness".

Good story?

[andi*pandi]

As a polite form of address, like I said in some instances Ladies and Gentlemen is fine. I like manners, and being polite and courteous. In some other contexts, Ladies can hold an insulting feeling that Gentlemen does not. I might posit, that unless you are a woman, you may not notice.

Question for the men: Did your coaches ever insult your sports abilities by saying things like, "Well Ladies, is that all you've got? You played like a bunch of little girls. What were you doing out there, having a tea party?"

Did that make you feel good? Bad? Empowered? Capable? Did that motivate you?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

As a polite form of address, like I said in some instances Ladies and Gentlemen is fine. I like manners, and being polite and courteous. In some other contexts, Ladies can hold an insulting feeling that Gentlemen does not. I might posit, that unless you are a woman, you may not notice.

Question for the men: Did your coaches ever insult your sports abilities by saying things like, "Well Ladies, is that all you've got? You played like a bunch of little girls. What were you doing out there, having a tea party?"

Did that make you feel good? Bad? Empowered? Capable? Did that motivate you?

Great questions here. The obvious answer is that in this context it is highly derogatory and sexist. Sure, there are some physical actions that men are better at because of their physical strength, but in this context the implication is complete and utter failure.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

As a polite form of address, like I said in some instances Ladies and Gentlemen is fine. I like manners, and being polite and courteous. In some other contexts, Ladies can hold an insulting feeling that Gentlemen does not. I might posit, that unless you are a woman, you may not notice.

Then what matters is whether the person is trying to be insulting. Context matters.

Question for the men: Did your coaches ever insult your sports abilities by saying things like, "Well Ladies, is that all you've got? You played like a bunch of little girls. What were you doing out there, having a tea party?"

Did that make you feel good? Bad? Empowered? Capable? Did that motivate you?

No, and I played football from grades 4 (Grasscutter league) - 12 (HS varsity), but I have seen it in movies and TV.

[besson3c]

Context matters, but these problems are not addressed when people shut down these conversations by inferring that it is impossible to be insulting this way, or that the affected party is too sensitive.

The fact that there are populations of men (which seems to vary depending on culture) that believe that they can be unfaithful while their woman is required to remain faithful to them, can use the idea of being a women in a derogatory fashion, objectify, etc. suggests that trying to shut down conversations of this nature will not move us forward.

The same is true of racial issues, but that's a whole other can of worms...


Sexism exists. Racism exists. It needs to be confronted, and not made into a gray issue because some people seem to go too far in doing so like Tightpants seemed to be doing earlier in this thread.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

As a polite form of address, like I said in some instances Ladies and Gentlemen is fine. I like manners, and being polite and courteous. In some other contexts, Ladies can hold an insulting feeling that Gentlemen does not. I might posit, that unless you are a woman, you may not notice.

Question for the men: Did your coaches ever insult your sports abilities by saying things like, "Well Ladies, is that all you've got? You played like a bunch of little girls. What were you doing out there, having a tea party?"

Did that make you feel good? Bad? Empowered? Capable? Did that motivate you?

YouTube Clip - The Sandlot

My basketball coaches never said anything like that over the course of 9 years, but I think that sounds like something more likely to happen with football. To be perfectly honest, if it was said at the time, I don't think I would have reacted much either way. I wouldn't have been shocked or confused by it in context. I understand why a female overhearing it might be offended.

One thing: I hear women saying incredibly offensive thing about men (often their husbands) on a regular basis, and the men seem to brush it off without a second thought. Many females refer to "all men" as being perverts, disgusting, stupid, shallow, etc. How is this any different? When they make fun of guys' beer bellies or back hair, no one puts up much of a fuss, including the poor hairy, overweight guy being ripped to shreds. Is this a public outrage double standard?

My wife and I were discussing this issue months ago, and I asked her if she was ever offended when she heard someone say something like, "You throw like a girl!"

She replied, "No, almost every girls throws weird. It's like we're all throwing with our less dominant hand."

However, my wife also refuses to vote for a female presidential candidate for some very non-PC reasons.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

The conversation shuts itself down, because it always comes down to intent. No word is universally offensive, none (especially in the modern Western World). Frankly speaking, if someone believes there is, they're just lazy and need to watch 100 hours of Frankie Boyle and Louis C.K. to desensitize themselves. If you're offended and the person who made the remark isn't trying to be an asshole and hurt your feelings, then it's on you, not them.

[ort888]

It's a "punching down" thing. It's the same reason why most white people aren't typically offended by racial slurs directed toward them.

That said, I do get annoyed by stuff like. I see tv commercials all the time mocking "dumb husbands" or making fun of dads who can't parent. I don't really get offended, but I do notice and roll my eyes.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by ort888 

It's a "punching down" thing. It's the same reason why most white people aren't typically offended by racial slurs directed toward them.

I don't accept that, it isn't equality if your feelings require special treatment.

[osiris]

Nothing offends me, except bad jokes and poor taste.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I don't accept that, it isn't equality if your feelings require special treatment.

But we buy into chivalry, so we're not really buying into equality in the first place.

[osiris]

Is it still women and children first? I lost track of that too.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

The conversation shuts itself down, because it always comes down to intent. No word is universally offensive, none (especially in the modern Western World). Frankly speaking, if someone believes there is, they're just lazy and need to watch 100 hours of Frankie Boyle and Louis C.K. to desensitize themselves. If you're offended and the person who made the remark isn't trying to be an asshole and hurt your feelings, then it's on you, not them.

We're talking about intent here, not simply nitpicking at word choice. I don't think there is much ambiguity of intent in the examples and cases we are discussing here.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I don't accept that, it isn't equality if your feelings require special treatment.

Easy for a wealthy white male to say.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by osiris 

Is it still women and children first? I lost track of that too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u1cbZTwBx4

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u1cbZTwBx4

George reached a new low in that one.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Apparently saying they're "ladies", when addressing a group of women, is sexist. I was recently castigated for using the word.

Also "women" is problematic, it should be spelled womyn. (No, I'm not joking, but I wish I was.)

I was thinking about the use of "ladies" - it's all relative to the age group, perhaps. I've used it when being polite with older grandmotherly types, but I've stopped using it with young ladi- , women.

And this is the first time I've ever heard of "womyn", though I've used Popeye's "wimmin" more than I should. I assume they are not the same.

[subego]

Olive Oyl is a womyn.