[Macpassport]

I am really disapointed with apple engineers, as they promised a lot and got even less that what we had on OS 9.1, I am not moving to OS X until they really give us something real not this crude version af an advanced operating system.

In life, when you take a big step, you do it strongly and all the way, but if you doit half way and weakly you fall down...Watch out Steve!!!!!!!!

[gotterdamm]

zzz...

[Macpassport]

OHH and I forgot to mention that changing the names we all already know and are familiar with is not a good Idea...I like if we change the name CAR just because we think is old fashioned and now we decided to call it TOK just because...that it the case of the CONTROL PANEL noe SYSTEM PREFERENCES

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

yawn...

[Xeo]

I'll humor you and argue, although my response should be "zzz" or "yawn" too, since you don't even make a good argument.

I am really disapointed with apple engineers, as they promised a lot and got even less that what we had on OS 9.1, I am not moving to OS X until they really give us something real not this crude version af an advanced operating system.

In life, when you take a big step, you do it strongly and all the way, but if you doit half way and weakly you fall down...Watch out Steve!!!!!!!!

1) No one asked you to move to OS X yet. Not even Apple

2) OS X is NOT DONE! It just isn't. OK, fine. Speed isn't good. We know. We don't like it. But you're just complaining about it not being like OS 9. It ISN'T OS 9. It's OS X. More features will come. Everything Apple wants, and what users want too, will be added. This is the release that gets developers going. They HAD to get it out the door. Screw us... most of us aren't making apps. This is so developers who didn't want to make their apps for a beta OS can now say they are making it for a "final."

3) Apple isn't done taking the "step" you talk about. The foot is in mid air, working its way forward. You can't call it a half step until the foot hits the ground.

4) You have to be the ONLY person who is actually complaining about the Control Panel -> Sys Pref thing. WTF? Who cares what it's called. Apple called 'em "Control Panels" when they were a bunch of separate files. Now it's one thing. Since it's used differently, they chose a different name. If you put wings on a car, do you still call it a car? No. Most people call it an airplane (of sorts, but definitely not a car). If you DID call it a car, you'd have to call it a "car with wings" so people could tell the difference. So why not just call them "Control Panels without all the individual files and instead put into one convenient place." That would make a lot more sense, wouldn't it.

Quit repeating all the complaints we've heard OVER AND OVER AND OVER for the past month. And stop trying to come up with new ones, you're not that good at it.

Blah, sorry for going off, but sometimes...

------------------

[gotterdamm]

Shh, some people are trying to sleep in this thread ya know!

[Mr Scruff]

It was inevitable that the signal to noise ratio in this forum would plummet when the OS was actually released. Perhaps it will improve when the OS begins to mature.

It was inevitable that the signal to noise ratio in this forum would plummet when the OS was actually released. Perhaps it will improve when the OS begins to mature.

Don't think the signal to noise will improve until OSX boots with a screen that says OS9.something and looks and act like OS9. ;-)

The complaints are getting tedious as they are all the same. Though I do like the NeXT killed my best OS conspiracy theories.

[foobars]

Let me get this straight.

You can run any app writen for Macintosh ever.
You can run any app that will be written for Macintosh in the next few years.
You have all the functionality of UNIX.

All in one OS.

This is LESS?

Originally posted by Macpassport:
I am really disapointed with apple engineers, as they promised a lot and got even less that what we had on OS 9.1, I am not moving to OS X until they really give us something real not this crude version af an advanced operating system.

Have you even considered that you are finished "getting" yet? So, go back to OS 9 and shut up about it until at least they come bundled with new Macs. You haven't made one legitimate complaint.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Macpassport:
I am really disapointed with apple engineers, as they promised a lot and got even less that what we had on OS 9.1, I am not moving to OS X until they really give us something real not this crude version af an advanced operating system.

In life, when you take a big step, you do it strongly and all the way, but if you doit half way and weakly you fall down...Watch out Steve!!!!!!!!

Do we have to constantly rehash the "I'm disappointed" threads??

I would like to say that OS X is not something I would recommend as a full time OS to someone right now, but I am not disappointed in the Apple Engineers one bit.

What they pulled off is amazing. They created and easy to use UNIX system. OS X will eventually be the most amazing OS on the planet.

AND they are listening and making changes probably as I type this. They probably aren't getting as much sleep as me (and I don't get much!)

This IS a complete "strong and all the way" step. It's HUGE. In the next two Macworlds (so by January 2002) we'll have native versions of Quark and all the Adobe and Macromedia apps and people will be upgrading to OS X in droves.

Look at it this way, continue to add features to a house of cards that crashes too often OR start with a solid base and make it backwards compatible. Cocoa is a great API, but getting OS9 apps to run under OSX is a major leap.




------------------
Dave Simon
----------
Windows are easily broken.

[Brad Nelson]

Yes, yes, it's easy enough to shout down a less than eloquent complaint. Don't like OS X? Well...yawn...you're not worthy of an answer. Doesn't it occur to you that this person might have recently purchased OS X? That they haven't been around long enough to know that they're just afraid of change, etc., etc. Gee, I hate to think what will happen when OS X comes installed on all those consumer iMacs and iBooks. Hey, if you don't agree with these people, fine. But would it kill you to treat them with some respect?

[Todd Madson]

All the user here did was complain they didn't meet his "expectations".
Didn't I tell you that your expectations are a prison? They are!

Expect nothing!g

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by Brad Nelson:
Yes, yes, it's easy enough to shout down a less than eloquent complaint. Don't like OS X? Well...yawn...you're not worthy of an answer. Doesn't it occur to you that this person might have recently purchased OS X? That they haven't been around long enough to know that they're just afraid of change, etc., etc. Gee, I hate to think what will happen when OS X comes installed on all those consumer iMacs and iBooks. Hey, if you don't agree with these people, fine. But would it kill you to treat them with some respect?

Public forums are like newsgroups. If you go on to a random discussion newsgroup that you have never read before and post something that has been stated a million times before you will get no respect. Tough, but that's just the way it is.

Everyone is a newbie once, but most will 'lurk' until they have an understanding of the nature of the group/forum, and only post when they are sure they can contribute something useful. So when people register, and say with their very first post what amounts to 'OS X sucks what are Apple thinking blah blah' they are gonna get shouted down.

[griffman]

Here's something I wrote last night while using my 'disappointing' OS X, and posted in another forum:

-----------------------

• Apache (web server) is running
• mySQL (database server) is running
• SSH (remote connectivity) is running
• I'm connected to the OS X box from the PC via SSH as an experiment
• I have my dev site web page up, connected to the local Apache and mySQL
• Using Samba, I've shared my MP3 folder to the PC's on the network
• My wife is playing MP3's from the shared folder across the network, selecting tunes to use on her MP3 player
• I'm using iTunes to rip more MP3's off our CD collection into the shared MP3 folder, listening to the tunes as they're ripped
• I'm running Eudora Classic email and Apple's mail.app, collecting email occasionally in the background
• Not one but two browsers are running; IE is connected to our online bank; OmniWeb is being used for normal web surfing.
• I've been using a terminal session to connect to my ISP to update pages on my website.
• Connected to my iDisk in the Finder to upload some files.
• The following other apps are open and being used occasionally: DragThing, System Preferences, TextEdit, AppleWorks, Preview, GoLive (Classic), Terminal

This has been going on for about the last two hours. I've not had a single hiccup, no skips in iTunes, no glitches in the captured MP3 streams, no application quits, no system lockups, and no stuttering of my user interface, despite the variety of activities occurring. iTunes ripping speed dropped a bit as activity varied, but never below 3x.

I know not everyone agrees with me, but it's examples like this that show the huge potential of this OS because of the solid core. Combine that with constant updates to improve the GUI and speed issues in the Finder, and Apple has an awesome OS on its hands ... for everyone - Mac users and UNIX heads alike!

I just had to write this somewhere ... I know I've never been able to do anything like the above task list under OS 9! I can't conceivably call OS X Public Beta 2; in my opinion, it's an incredibly solid OS in need of some additional features and improvements. Wow.

-----------------------

Put me in the "impressed as HELL by the Apple Engineers" camp. Oh yea, I did all of the above last night without even having to know what UNIX was (other than when I set up mySQL and using the terminal, of course).

-rob.

[This message has been edited by griffman (edited 04-24-2001).]

[typoon]

Originally posted by griffman:
Here's something I wrote last night while using my 'disappointing' OS X, and posted in another forum:

I agree with you. I am in the camp that LOVES OS X. It still needs some features and some speed increases and those will come. I think Apple really has lived up to it's "Power of Unix with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh"

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by griffman:
Here's something I wrote last night while using my 'disappointing' OS X, and posted in another forum:

You know, just because this "unfinished" OS works almost flawlessly for people like you and me doesn't negate the experiences of people who think it's a POS. I feel for those folks, I really do. And I'm glad I'm not one of them. But how is someone whose copy of OSX is working exactly as advertised supposed to respond to someone who just can't seem to get the OS to work properly? "Sucks to be you?"



------------------
The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

[griffman]

>>But how is someone whose copy of OSX is working exactly as advertised supposed to respond to someone who just can't seem to get the OS to work properly? "Sucks to be you?"<<

Well, generally speaking, I try to help figure out what the difference is between their installation and mine, to see if we can identify the cause of the problem.

However, that's when you get better information than:

"I am not moving to OS X until they really give us something real not this crude version af an advanced operating system" and "that it the case of the CONTROL PANEL noe SYSTEM PREFERENCES".

Well, I can't do much about Apple renaming some folders (heck, that seems to happen every time we upgrade, even on minor updates from pre-X days), and it's hard to respond to the first comment. So the more useful info someone can provide on WHY they're having a bad Xperience (so to speak ;-), the better the odds that the readership here can help them...

-rob.

[Chrisspoon]

-----------------------

• Apache (web server) is running
• mySQL (database server) is running
• SSH (remote connectivity) is running
• I'm connected to the OS X box from the PC via SSH as an experiment
• I have my dev site web page up, connected to the local Apache and mySQL
• Using Samba, I've shared my MP3 folder to the PC's on the network
• My wife is playing MP3's from the shared folder across the network, selecting tunes to use on her MP3 player
• I'm using iTunes to rip more MP3's off our CD collection into the shared MP3 folder, listening to the tunes as they're ripped
• I'm running Eudora Classic email and Apple's mail.app, collecting email occasionally in the background
• Not one but two browsers are running; IE is connected to our online bank; OmniWeb is being used for normal web surfing.
• I've been using a terminal session to connect to my ISP to update pages on my website.
• Connected to my iDisk in the Finder to upload some files.
• The following other apps are open and being used occasionally: DragThing, System Preferences, TextEdit, AppleWorks, Preview, GoLive (Classic), Terminal

such things is so stupid.

I can make the same with OS9:
now
-IE running, downloading a 65 meg movie clip
-Netscape running (i wrote this on it)
-Hotline running, uploadinga large file
-Lightwave running doing a render
-Photoshop running
-Illustrator running.
-AFtereffects running

Waou

Oh guy you're great, OS x is great, apple is so great, microsoft is great, and amiga workbench 1.5 too.

[HeatMiser]

Chrisspoon's reply is illustrative of why so many people here are griping about OSX. I believe they just don't understand what's going on.

It's like riding in a car powered by gasoline, then riding in the same car powered by water. Is it incredible that a car is powered by water? Yes. Can you make someone else with no understanding believe that it's incredible? Prolly not. No matter. Eventually OSX will change the way all Mac users compute, and sooner or later everyone's favorite app will take on new and better attributes thanks to X. That's when it will finally dawn on these people.



------------------
The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

[foobars]

Originally posted by HeatMiser:
Chrisspoon's reply is illustrative of why so many people here are griping about OSX. I believe they just don't understand what's going on.

It's like riding in a car powered by gasoline, then riding in the same car powered by water. Is it incredible that a car is powered by water? Yes. Can you make someone else with no understanding believe that it's incredible? Prolly not. No matter. Eventually OSX will change the way all Mac users compute, and sooner or later everyone's favorite app will take on new and better attributes thanks to X. That's when it will finally dawn on these people.

Indeed this begs the question- has Apple's sudden UNIX appeal to powerusers (Rob) alienated the everyday OS9 users (Chrisspoon) who don't fully understand it's potential? Sure OSX is great if you're into UNIX and all it's benefits (I LOVE IT!) but does it impress the average iMac user? Probally not.

Suddenly Apple is Slashdot's new best friends and MacNNs whipping boy. I hope Cuppertino is seeing what's going on here.

[This message has been edited by foobars (edited 04-24-2001).]

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by foobars:
Indeed this begs the question- has Apple's sudden UNIX appeal to powerusers (Rob) alienated the everyday OS9 users (Chrisspoon) who don't fully understand it's potential?

As a Mac user obstinately seated in the latter camp, I can honestly answer with a resounding "No."

Full disclosure: I have an iMac and an iBook at home. The iBook has X installed, and the iMac is still running 9.1. The only reason I turn my iMac on anymore (or at least recently...I'll probably get back to it more when I'm done "playing" so much with X) is to let it act as a software base station for my iBook.

Yes, X takes some getting used to. But, really, learning it has been like learning the Mac all over again, which was a great experience for me the first time around. I'm finding far more advantages than drawbacks to far, maybe because I was willing and able to wipe my 'Book's drive clean and do an X-only install on it.

The only thing I'm missing is the ability to transfer images from my Kodak DC3400, but that'll come. I can wait.


------------------
The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

[Terri]

Originally posted by HeatMiser:
Chrisspoon's reply is illustrative of why so many people here are griping about OSX. I believe they just don't understand what's going on.

It's like riding in a car powered by gasoline, then riding in the same car powered by water. Is it incredible that a car is powered by water? Yes. Can you make someone else with no understanding believe that it's incredible? Prolly not. No matter. Eventually OSX will change the way all Mac users compute, and sooner or later everyone's favorite app will take on new and better attributes thanks to X. That's when it will finally dawn on these people.

The only thing I care about is what it is like to work in it, how much does it crash and how fast it is.

I don't care if it is UNIX, Windozes, or a hamster in the box.

It still crashes, but not as much.

Aqua is the perfect name for the new interface since I feel like I'm trying to move underwater.

I didn't ask for a task bar or a bunch of the other new "great" features.

What I was hoping for was a better Mac OS. What we got was a Next port that kind of looks like a Mac.



------------------
Terri Zamore

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by Terri:
The only thing I care about is what it is like to work in it, how much does it crash and how fast it is.

Even Einstein started out as a crib-wetting, pants-crapping, mute, weak, stupid thing.

I'm just glad his family didn't give up on him.

Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.

[griffman]

>>Oh guy you're great, OS x is great, apple is so great, microsoft is great, and amiga workbench 1.5 too.<<

Chrisspoon - You missed my point entirely. You can NOT do everything in my list on OS 9. Yes, you can do everything on YOUR list in either OS, but not on mine. That's the point I was trying to make about why X is good - it lets you do things you simply CANNOT do under OS 9. Unless, somehow, you can tell me how to ...

- Install mySQL on OS 9?
- Install PHP development language on OS 9?
- Install Apache on OS 9? (NOT Webstar, I need Apache for my site)
- Share a folder with a PC user using free software, giving that user full read/write to the shared folder?
- Have it all function effectively at the same time, without skipping a beat?

Add "ripping iTunes" and "sharing iTunes" and "playing iTunes" to your OS 9 list, and let me know how it goes while doing everything else you listed. For me, whenever I ask OS 9 to do much more than two things at the same time, the OS gets a little confused over priorities ... sounds stutter, disk copies slow to a crawl, rendering stops, etc.

And, for the record, I'm not much of a UNIX head. I'm much more of a traditional Apple power user. I didn't know one word of UNIX until I bought the Public Beta in September. I chose to use X as a reason to learn UNIX, but I still know a trivial amount about UNIX compared to what I know about the Mac OS. I prefer the GUI interface of Mac to the command-line of UNIX, but I'm glad the power's there when I want to use it, and I'm glad authors are wrapping that power in cool little GUIs so that it's truly available for everyone.

>>The only thing I care about is what it is like to work in it, how much does it crash and how fast it is.<<

Me too, and that's why I prefer X. It's faster, it doesn't crash, and it's a blast to work in -- for me. Others have differing opinions.

The more I'm in these discussions, the more I'm convinced that discussing X is like discussing religion and politics: there can be no winners, and friends eventually wind up as enemies if the discussion continues too long.

-rob.

[This message has been edited by griffman (edited 04-24-2001).]

[unimacs]

Originally posted by Terri:
The only thing I care about is what it is like to work in it, how much does it crash and how fast it is.

I don't care if it is UNIX, Windozes, or a hamster in the box.

It still crashes, but not as much.

Aqua is the perfect name for the new interface since I feel like I'm trying to move underwater.

I didn't ask for a task bar or a bunch of the other new "great" features.

What I was hoping for was a better Mac OS. What we got was a Next port that kind of looks like a Mac.

Some of us like the great new features.

You did get a better (but not perfect) Mac OS.

If you don't care whether it's UNIX, Windoze or a hamster, why does OS X's relationship to NeXTStep seem to bother you? Aqua has nothing to do with NeXTStep.

[Terri]

Originally posted by unimacs:
Some of us like the great new features.

You did get a better (but not perfect) Mac OS.

If you don't care whether it's UNIX, Windoze or a hamster, why does OS X's relationship to NeXTStep seem to bother you? Aqua has nothing to do with NeXTStep.

Mac X is a port of NeXT. Aqua is the interface that the port uses.

Don't get me wrong. I'll use Mac X, it's far better then anything else out there, even in this early release. A year from now I really will not have a choice. Classic Mac is dead, Windows is Windoze and the other systems don't run my programs.

I just wish it was a lot more Mac like and a lot less NeXT like.




------------------
Terri Zamore

[unimacs]

Originally posted by Terri:
Mac X is a port of NeXT. Aqua is the interface that the port uses.

Don't get me wrong. I'll use Mac X, it's far better then anything else out there, even in this early release. A year from now I really will not have a choice. Classic Mac is dead, Windows is Windoze and the other systems don't run my programs.

I just wish it was a lot more Mac like and a lot less NeXT like.

Perhaps it's a matter of perspective, but 5 years ago my primary OS was NeXTStep and OS X doesn't seem very NeXT like to me. Some of the applications are familiar, but the overall look and feel is quite different. I won't bother to list the differences, but let's just say that an old NeXTer might very well be disappointed with the "Macification" of the UI.

Xeo-
It's a bit late, but actually it's _always_ been called Control Panel(s). The very first one was just a single panel, and very, very nasty.

Later on it was a lot like it is in OS X (also like what Eudora uses) where there were modules in a scrolling column on the left, and the panel stuff on the right. Only in System 7, to simplify the installation/removal of cdevs did Control Panels start to be seperate of each other. (and many are still pretty small in deference to the size limitations inherent in the System 6 Control Panel.

Personally I don't care all that much, but all things being equal, I'd prefer Control Panels if only b/c people are used to that name after the past 17 years.

But this is a small issue, even to me

HeatMiser-
Yeah, well OTOH Einstein's parents didn't have the option of trading for a cheaper, more immediately useful kid. It took MS years and years to make people finally switch to the NT codebase, and they're still doing it. If MacOS 9 were being continued for some time, and were very popular, it would help. Making a clean break of it may seem better, but in Apple's current state, I'm not convinced that they'll be able to survive it. (or that in their current state of mind, that OS X would really posess a superior user experience anyway)

[Millennium]

OHH and I forgot to mention that changing the names we all already know and are familiar with is not a good Idea...I like if we change the name CAR just because we think is old fashioned and now we decided to call it TOK just because...that it the case of the CONTROL PANEL noe SYSTEM PREFERENCES

Dude, if the only reason you won't use OSX is because they changed the name of the Control Panel, you seriously need a life. Of course, since you haven't listed any of your complaints save that, yet you obviously have more that for some reason you don't want to share with us, I'm afraid I'm going to have to assume you're just a whiner. In other words, "put up (your complaints) or shut up."

Now, I've noticed that a lot of the OSX detractors have lately decided to attack the NeXT foundations of OSX. I find this rather interesting, personally, because I'm not sure why. Most probably haven't even used NeXTStep, which, while very different from the Mac, was frankly its equal. The only GUI out there that wasn't a blatant Mac rip-off (or a Windows rip-off, which amounts to the same thing only of even lower quality) was NeXTStep's. And, like Apple, they got it right. They found non-spatial metaphors that actually worked as well of OSX's spatial ones, had a universal menu that worked nothing like the Mac menubar (and was, I daresay, perhaps even better in most aspects), and actually got the OS right from Day One, with power and ease of use intertwined in ways the Mac never saw until March 24. Shall I also mention the artistic icons, GUI concepts that we never saw on the Mac until much later, the CD-ROM systems that predated the Mac's standardization on the device for years, (ditto for floppyless systems), a sense for design that puts Apple to shame in the corporate world, and so on? It's a shame NeXT was so overpriced; in the end this is what killed them. For a very interesting read, check out the "Steve Jobs" entry in Microsoft's Encarta. Not at all what I expected, to say the least.

I find this interesting, because we now see the best of both worlds coming into play in OSX, and it seems people like Terri are quite afraid of that. The prospect that Apple wasn't the be-all and end-all of interface design, and that someone else may have come up with a design that was different, but just as good. In other words, those who accuse the advocates of being Apple-zealots may in fact themselves be the biggest zealots of all.

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
HeatMiser-
Yeah, well OTOH Einstein's parents didn't have the option of trading for a cheaper, more immediately useful kid.

No, no, we're still on the same hand.

The point, of course, is that all kids of that age are immediately useless. What's more, his parents did have options:

1. Don't have a kid (stay with OS9)

2. Adopt a kid (switch to Windows, in which case XP would simply present them with a child of the same age whose crap smells different and who has a different sleep cycle)

God, I love extended metaphors.



------------------
The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

[Terri]

[quote]Originally posted by Millennium:

it seems people like Terri are quite afraid of that.

Could you just please show me how to mark a bunch of files without moving them or renaming them?



------------------
Terri Zamore

[griffman]

Terri:

You obviously know the answer to your rhetorical question. They're not there. If this is a show-stopper for you, then you can't move to X. If they never add them in, then you'll either have to stay with 9, or choose another platform (but I don't think Win supports labels, either).

If you want to use X, and are willing to work harder to get what you want, just use custom icons as the only work around that I'm aware of. With the new unitary Get Info window, it's pretty quick (I've done it myself, since I'm a label user in 9). Copy one icon. Get Info on the first file you need to change, hit paste, click on next file, hit paste, etc. Yes, I know it's nothing near a replacement for 9, but you asked how to do it without moving or renaming the files.

Another option, which I've also used, is to make aliases of files into different folders - "Need work", "Ready to go", "From the boss". Files stay where they were, I double-click aliases and then delete them when done.

If enough people ask for labels back, perhaps Apple will implement them. There are some bits in the system for label support, but they may just be leftover Finder bits from OS 9. I'm sure part of the issue is resolving labelling in a multi-user system - if I color Excel red, what color should it be when you log in? Label prefs by user by app? Now we're talking about a somewhat complex database of info to manage...

-rob.

[Xeo]

Xeo-
It's a bit late, but actually it's _always_ been called Control Panel(s). The very first one was just a single panel, and very, very nasty.

I think you misunderstood a bit. I didn't mean they started calling them Control Panels when they were a bunch of little files. I just meant they have been calling them Control Panels when they were a bunch of little files. You can append to that the fact that it was called a Control Panel at the start, when it was just one file. Apple changed the way Control Panels were thought of, and at this point they merged them all back together. However it goes, Apple chose to change it.

Has anyone noticed that the original poster hasn't said anything to back himself up? It's been nothing but other people shootin' him down and others picking him back up. He isn't even a part of it anymore.

------------------

[unimacs]

Originally posted by Terri:
Could you just please show me how to mark a bunch of files without moving them or renaming them?

Assuming you're trying to duplicate labels, How about this?

Create folder(s) that represent the states you are trying to convey (work in progress, completed, etc). Place aliases (command-option-drag I think) of the original files in these folders. You can move the aliases from folder to folder or delete them to represent a change in state without affecting the original files in any way.

Using this scheme, the same file can have multiple states which might be good or bad.

Each user of the system also can share a common set of states or use their own.

Just an idea.

[HeatMiser]

[quote]Originally posted by Xeo:

Has anyone noticed that the original poster hasn't said anything to back himself up? It's been nothing but other people shootin' him down and others picking him back up. He isn't even a part of it anymore.

Who's to say the original poster isn't now masquerading as one of the people here who're picking him back up?

Stranger things have happened.



------------------
The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

[osiris]

uhhhhh, what was the question?

[jmatero]

I don't get it...

we're humans... we will ALWAYS expect more and, therefore, perceive what we get as "less" (well, with the exception of buying a Passat....)

It's human nature. The fact of the matter is, in EARLY March we knew EXACTLY what was coming. So, why did you purchase on March 24th? We knew there would be no DVD. We knew there would be few drivers. We knew there would be little/no software. We knew cd-burning wasn't ready. We read that Airport software wasn't ready. We knew from the developers that the speed needed improvement.

So... what were you expecting? I'm not trying to come over as "mean" but really... what were you expecting? This is version 1 of a TOTALLY NEW OPERATING SYSTEM... Chances are, if you're a Mac Person, you've never had the experience of moving to a new operating system because 9.1's roots go back to 1984 (Mac OS 1.0).

I'd like to list a few things that left me thinking "Wow... I expected less and got more" on the 24th:

1. My HP printer worked without installing drivers.
2. My airport Network was detected during the INSTALL.
3. Sleep/Wake-up are instantaneous.
4. ALL of my classic software (Photoshop 6, Office 98, etc) WORKS.
5. TONS of 3rd party software available EVERY DAY (versiontracker.com)
6. The "Command + H" key combination to hide windows/apps.
7. How Beautiful the icons are... choose full-magnification on the dock.
8. Reinstalling OSX will not eliminate your files/settings/prefs

I know some of these sound trivial and I also have some "problems" that I'm sure will be corrected in future releases BUT when you consider how far they came in comparison to the BETA... it's AMAZING, really. I defy you to show me another v1.0 operating system ever released that offered more than OSX. I don't know of one and I've used them ALL. Xenix, Unix, Linux, BeOS, Next, Amiga....ALL OF THEM. NONE were as complete as OSX 10.0.0 was when released on 3/24/01. I remember going from windows 3.1 to windows 95... what a mess. And from 95-98? It was a DOWN-grade. Windows ME? Made the folks at work LONG for windows 95 again. Windows XP looks very promising... I'm running the second beta now and it's still very unstable. I've only rebooted OSX a few times in the past month and one of those was because I installed Keyspan drivers. NONE of the re-boots were due to a system-wide crash.

I can assure your that one year from today, you will be a happy camper.

[This message has been edited by jmatero (edited 04-24-2001).]

HeatMiser-
Ah! But the trick is that the MacOS kid is old and useful and suffers from instability. Worse yet, the Windows kid _looks_ kind of new, but at heart is just old enough to be useful and is not particularly unstable. (certainly not as bad as OS X, which doesn't even do as much) The OS X kid ought to have been old and useful, but turned out not to be.

The parents aren't choosing between kids of the same age - they've got a wide range of choices.

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
HeatMiser-
The parents aren't choosing between kids of the same age - they've got a wide range of choices.

Which moves us further away from the spirit of my original metaphor (pretty sneaky, sis), which is that all newborns are--by definition--not fully-developed, fully-functional human beings.

And you're the one who introduced this notion that the parents are able to choose. My only point is that a reasonable person wouldn't expect an infant to have the physical and intellectual stamina to, say, predict the behavior of a theoretical celestial object like a black hole.

Any longer on this thread and I'm liable to start waxing philosophical about Darwin, mammals, and other evolutionary topics trademarked by Apple.



------------------
The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

[Macpassport]

Hey Hey Hey !!!!! Relax this is a forum right? Since I am a user I have the right to say whatever I feel about OSX. I repect your opinion, pleas respect mine as it is only and no more than my own opinion. I am not a genius I am a user just like you.

You shouls learn how to listen yo other people too not expect everybody agrre with you.

I am sorry but FOR ME, this is a waste of money sorry but this is my opinion and yes, I am not moving to OSX I am stiking with OS 9.1 until the guys at apple give us something better and less crude version of OSX which I am 100% shure they will, do not know when but they will...mayb OSXX who knows!!!!!!!!!!!


Note:
If you do not like my opinion it is OK, let us just talk OK I am not trying to star a war just expressing myself...lets respect each other !!!!

[Terri]

Originally posted by Macpassport:
Hey Hey Hey !!!!! Relax this is a forum right? Since I am a user I have the right to say whatever I feel about OSX. I repect your opinion, pleas respect mine as it is only and no more than my own opinion. I am not a genius I am a user just like you.

You shouls learn how to listen yo other people too not expect everybody agrre with you.

I am sorry but FOR ME, this is a waste of money sorry but this is my opinion and yes, I am not moving to OSX I am stiking with OS 9.1 until the guys at apple give us something better and less crude version of OSX which I am 100% shure they will, do not know when but they will...mayb OSXX who knows!!!!!!!!!!!


Note:
If you do not like my opinion it is OK, let us just talk OK I am not trying to star a war just expressing myself...lets respect each other !!!!

Well first you have to change all your work habits, never mind you will get a lot less done, the dock is fun to watch.

We are the borg you will use Mac X, resistance is futile




------------------
Terri Zamore

[griffman]

Terri:

It really depends on what kind of work you do. For me, I get more done. Others get less done. And I've turned off all the dock animations; I didn't like them one bit. Speed, stability, and multi-tasking are the three selling points that cover a whole bunch of GUI oddities ... for ME.

Macpassport writes: "until the guys at apple give us something better and less crude version of OSX "

Macpassport - it'd be much easier for everyone to respect your opinion if you publsihed the REASONS for your opinion -- see above, where I state why it's OK for X to have some GUI problems and support my opinion. Otherwise, it does just look like you're posting to inflame, instead of posting to inspire conversation. What, specifically, do you find 'crude' about the OS? What will they fix in the year or so that you're waiting?

-rob.

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by Terri:

Well first you have to change all your work habits, never mind you will get a lot less done, the dock is fun to watch.

We are the borg you will use Mac X, resistance is futile

It's amazing to me that someone who claims to do consulting on the installation and setup of new systems is so resistant to change. How do you reconcile this? I mean, when FireWire was introduced I assume you learned as much as you could about it, yes?

Do you expect Apple's hardware and software development to sit still to suit your individual needs? Moreover, are you just going to turn down those customers using OSX who request your services?

I don't understand.



------------------
The power of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of Macintosh.

Macpassport: not to mention following the forum guidelines
and having the common courtesy of not starting a new thread just because you feel like it when there are similar threads already available.

[Terri]

Originally posted by HeatMiser:
It's amazing to me that someone who claims to do consulting on the installation and setup of new systems is so resistant to change. How do you reconcile this?

This is the first OS from Apple that I have not rushed to upgrade. In fact I'm usually the first to upgrade. I remember when Illustrator 7 came out. Adobe completely redid the interface, but it was done to make it more productive. I spent weeks learning it because it was better then 6.

I remember going from 6 to 7 to 8 to 9. I couldn't wait to upgrade all the Macs that I oversee.

Things don't always get better. We all have upgraded to Suitcase 9 because we have had to, but the interface on 8 was much better and faster.

Sometimes we upgrade because it is improved, sometimes we upgrade because we have to, but we always upgrade.

We will upgrade to Mac X, but not right away. This release is feature incomplete and all of our software runs in classic which has the features that we can only hope will make it into Mac X.



------------------
Terri Zamore

[Xeo]

This is the first OS from Apple that I have not rushed to upgrade. In fact I'm usually the first to upgrade. I remember when Illustrator 7 came out. Adobe completely redid the interface, but it was done to make it more productive. I spent weeks learning it because it was better then 6.

I remember going from 6 to 7 to 8 to 9. I couldn't wait to upgrade all the Macs that I oversee.

Things don't always get better. We all have upgraded to Suitcase 9 because we have had to, but the interface on 8 was much better and faster.

Sometimes we upgrade because it is improved, sometimes we upgrade because we have to, but we always upgrade.

We will upgrade to Mac X, but not right away. This release is feature incomplete and all of our software runs in classic which has the features that we can only hope will make it into Mac X.

This is true, mostly. The only thing I disagree about is your use of the word "upgrade."

This is hardly an upgrade. You don't download the new stuff and replace the old stuff like we've always done. It's a complete change-over. It's a different operating system. That's why it's OK to wait. The are not even done with OS 9 yet. Of course, the main reasons for updating it from here on out is to make it more compatible with X, but they are still working on it. OS 9 is what's shipping and that is Apple's current OS.

This is an early adopter's release and a developer's release. It's not your everyday upgrade like 6 -> 7 -> 8 -> 9. This is 9 & X together, for now. Eventually, everyone will have to use X, and X alone because Classic will die. Either that or switch to a PC.

I really think everyone on this forum should use OS X. Maybe not for everyday use, if you need OS 9 to get real work done, but when you're not working boot into OS X. Use it for web browsing. Use it for Mail. Use it for everything you can, and when you hit a snag, fire up Classic or boot into OS 9.

Personally, I like knowing when OS X ships with new computers that I will have experience with it. I can help those around me if needed. I will have the basic knowledge and if I work at it, I'll have some advanced knowledge too. There is so much to learn about how OS X works, and about the differences between it and OS 9. It takes time, and I'm glad I get to learn it before it hits prime time.

OS X isn't ready for everyone, but it's ready enough for us. It's ready for those who know OS 9 inside and out. If you know OS 9, use OS X. Never stop the learning. It's fantastic.

------------------

[xenu]

Terri could always play around with /etc/DIR_COLORS file
(at least that's where it is in Linux) and list files
in the terminal.

I have folders with well over 100 files, colour coded and
listed in order of preference. Look at the ls man page.

[Hey! Who stole my name?!]

;-)

This is the first OS from Apple that I have not rushed to upgrade. In fact I'm usually the first to upgrade. I remember when Illustrator 7 came out. Adobe completely redid the interface, but it was done to make it more productive. I spent weeks learning it because it was better then 6.

I remember going from 6 to 7 to 8 to 9. I couldn't wait to upgrade all the Macs that I oversee.

Things don't always get better. We all have upgraded to Suitcase 9 because we have had to, but the interface on 8 was much better and faster.

Sometimes we upgrade because it is improved, sometimes we upgrade because we have to, but we always upgrade.

We will upgrade to Mac X, but not right away. This release is feature incomplete and all of our software runs in classic which has the features that we can only hope will make it into Mac X.

I don't know anyone who runs alot of machines who has rushed to upgrade an OS like you claim -- well maybe 7.5.1 to 7.6, but for major .0 releases I am always cautious.

Took 6 months to decide to move to Win2K, and it will take at least that long to decide on OSX. Hell Win2K wasn't even a 1.0 release.

As far as Illustrator goes -- it ain't an operating system, and the move from 6 to 7 sucked. That is why Adobe apologized by fixing the UI in 8. And for releasing v9, Adobe owes everyone who uses Illustrator for a living a public apology.