[hyteckit]

WTF?!! My Sunday School teacher was female. We going backwards? Women can't be a Priest, but can spread the word of God and teach. Now, they can't even teach unless she is teaching females only?

CNN.com - Sunday school teacher dumped�for being female - Aug 21, 2006

[Dakar]

I wouldn't care unless this becomes a widespread story.

[mojo2]

Pushy damned broads!

[Krusty]

Interesting. A small radical faction of Christianity that believes in categorical subservience of women. Perhaps we should send in troops and "liberate" them.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Krusty

A small radical faction of Christianity that believes in categorical subservience of women.

Bit of a stretch, that.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Krusty

Interesting. A small radical faction of Christianity that believes in categorical subservience of women. Perhaps we should send in troops and "liberate" them.

Like in Waco? Please see the FBI's response.

[Landos Mustache]

Funny how Americans like to point the finger at lets say "other" groups who have issues with educating women.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Funny how Americans like to point the finger at lets say "other" groups who have issues with educating women.

1 church in NY ≠ the majority of the Muslim world

[Kr0nos]

"I believe that a woman can perform any job and fulfill any responsibility that she desires to…

as long as she does what she's told and keeps her god damn mouth shut!" … LaBouf, who is known to be not very well endowed, wrote Saturday.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Dakar

1 church in NY ≠ the majority of the Muslim world

Actually in the Catholic Church woman aren't allowed in any of the higher up positions or allowed to be ministers.

So that is more than 1.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Actually in the Catholic Church woman aren't allowed in any of the higher up positions or allowed to be ministers.

So that is more than 1.

Its pretty damned hard to say the bible treats women as equal to men. At the very least one has to concede it categorically states that women shouldn't teach men.

[n8236]

Religion has become a form of mind control and, male social domination, and political war waging scapegoat.

[miss-haley]

Originally Posted by n8236

Religion has become a form of mind control and, male social domination, and political war waging scapegoat.

100% in agreement to that

[greenamp]

This is nothing new really. Many ultra conservative Christian based churches do not let women participate in positions of authority where such would put them in a leadership position over a man.

It's pretty ludicrous but it's the least of their absurdity. Mennonites and Amish actually make their females wear a covering on their heads as an outward sign of their submission to male authority.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by n8236

Religion has become a form of mind control and, male social domination, and political war waging scapegoat.

Right on, 'cept the thing is, it always has been.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by greenamp

This is nothing new really. Many ultra conservative Christian based churches do not let women participate in positions of authority where such would put them in a leadership position over a man.

It's pretty ludicrous but it's the least of their absurdity. Mennonites and Amish actually make their females wear a covering on their heads as an outward sign of their submission to male authority.

OK, color me confused.

I'm literally surrounded by Amish folks - and I'm fairly certain that 'Amish' is a lifestyle, not a religion. Both men and women wear hats - as well as children.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

OK, color me confused.

I'm literally surrounded by Amish folks - and I'm fairly certain that 'Amish' is a lifestyle, not a religion. Both men and women wear hats - as well as children.

It is both a religion and a lifestyle, however the lifestyle has it's roots in a particular interpretation of Christianity. They don't just drive horses and buggies, wear 19th century clothing, and live without electricity for the heck of it. They do so because they feel living otherwise is "worldly" and feel as followers of Christ they should be seperate from the world. (that is their official reason at least)

Of course, they have been doing it so long it has become their lifestyle, with many sects of both Amish and Mennonite branching off with slightly different beliefs, some being far less conservative than others. But it's a lifestyle based in religion.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

1 church in NY ≠ the majority of the Muslim world

Don't let the facts get in the way of his daily American bashing.

He has to let it out or he gets all nellie when he gets home.

When said church starts cutting off clitorises get back to me.

Originally Posted by n8236

Religion has become a form of mind control and, male social domination, and political war waging scapegoat.

Actually it seems in this thread, it's the non-religious that are doing this.

[Eug]

As has already been said: It's just one church, not all of Christianity.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Actually in the Catholic Church woman aren't allowed in any of the higher up positions or allowed to be ministers.

So that is more than 1.

You were talking about the Americans

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Eug

As has already been said: It's just one church, not all of Christianity.

So ANY other christian church in the world allows female ministers?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

So ANY other christian church in the world allows female ministers?

Yes, most do.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

So ANY other christian church in the world allows female ministers?

Yes.

Also, the article was about Sunday school teachers, not ministers.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

So ANY other christian church in the world allows female ministers?

That's why we have Protestants.

Our priest was a lesbian at my Episcopalian church. While Episcopalians allow women as priests, we got into a little trouble with the arch-daisies over her being a lesbian. In the end, she won the right to preach because her sexual orientation didn't change the message she was delivering.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Actually in the Catholic Church woman aren't allowed in any of the higher up positions or allowed to be ministers.

So that is more than 1.

Also, all the orthodox churches have the same teaching.

In this age of feminism, such policies may seem barbaric or suppressive. They aren't. Women and men are different and have different roles to play in the Church. The Church isn't (or shouldn't be) about power. Secularists only care about who is in power. It doesn't really matter. Christianity is about complete and utter subservience to God. Thus any person who desires power, be they a woman or a man, is not acting in accordance to the Christian spirit. There is a reason why they call them 'ministers' (which means 'servant' in Latin). We can serve God from the lowest place to the highest place. Women are not called to serve God as authority leaders in the Church, but it does not mean that their contribution is inferior to that of men. In fact, so often it is at the lowest place that the greatest work is done - e.g. Mother Theresa.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by undotwa

In this age of feminism, such policies may seem barbaric or suppressive. They aren't. Women and men are different and have different roles to play in the Church. The Church isn't (or shouldn't be) about power. Secularists only care about who is in power. It doesn't really matter. Christianity is about complete and utter subservience to God. Thus any person who desires power, be they a woman or a man, is not acting in accordance to the Christian spirit. There is a reason why they call them 'ministers' (which means 'servant' in Latin). We can serve God from the lowest place to the highest place. Women are not called to serve God as authority leaders in the Church, but it does not mean that their contribution is inferior to that of men. In fact, so often it is at the lowest place that the greatest work is done - e.g. Mother Theresa.

If they're not worried about loss of power, then what do they care if women become priests?

I'll tell you why. It's because it's a long standing tradition that men inherit property, not women. The "church" was/is the central point of power. It was above the king and any nobles. Since women can't own property, they can't become priests and therefor put into a position where they might inherit said property.

It's all about power.

[Kevin]

Not a big fan of Catholicism, but no, it's NOT about power.

[hyteckit]

Right, Christianity is never about power; lower or higher power.

Tell that to the Pope.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

If they're not worried about loss of power, then what do they care if women become priests?

I'll tell you why. It's because it's a long standing tradition that men inherit property, not women. The "church" was/is the central point of power. It was above the king and any nobles. Since women can't own property, they can't become priests and therefor put into a position where they might inherit said property.

It's all about power.

One shouldn't become a priest to get 'in power'. Priesthood has nothing to do with power. The priesthood is simply about working the harvest and bringing souls to Christ. It is about service. Any person who wants to join the priesthood because of power is totally unfit for the priesthood. And this is why all those women who seek ordination because they want to bring balance between the sexes is completely misunderstanding the whole purpose of the priesthood. What we need in this society is more humility. We must recognise that we are all called to different stations in life. Being a sweeper is not inferior to being a CEO. In fact, if a sweeper approaches his work from the perspective of sanctification and devoutly performs his work for the greater glory of God, his work is more valuable (according to Catholic teaching) than that of a CEO that is only concerned about money. We must abandon this materialistic, power based understanding of society that we have inherited from Marx.

Now, I'm not suggesting that what I'm saying conforms with reality. I'm merely trying to outline the paradigm in which we should understand the priesthood. Of course, there is much corruption. But just because there is corruption and that there are many people who abuse the priesthood for their own personal aims does not mean we should redefine the paradigm. The paradigm is to what we must aspire. We must not let our ideals erode because of the deficiencies inherent to human nature.

What you are saying does not really fit into the general history of the Church. What about the millions of sisters? They have had a tremendous impact upon the Church. The protestant reformation proved devastating for women. For as the many convents shut down in protestant countries, women lost a way in which they could be educated.

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not a big fan of Catholicism, but no, it's NOT about power.

This is one of the nuttiest things I've read on this forum in a while.

The church not about power ? Outside the monarchy (and often in tandem with it or in opposition to it), the church is not only about power, it was the very definition of power for most of the millennia until the rise of the money economy a couple hundred years ago. Today, a person's "rank" in society ... their ability to fulfill their needs/wants and impose their will matches closely with the amount of money they have. Throughout most of western history, a person's rank in the Catholic church was synonymous with their rank in society and the highest ranking members of church had political power that matched those of Kings and Queens. Christianity and/or spirituality is not the same thing as "the Church" ... "the Church" is a man-made creation and follows the power rules of any man made organization.

Originally Posted by undotwa

Christianity is about complete and utter subservience to God

If it is, then no organized churches would need to exist at all. Any organization IS an organization specifically to establish a hierarchy. The Pope/Iman/Minister of a church can make decision and interpretations of how you are to behave that are theoretically binding on you but not the other way around. If you disagree with the Pope, he can excommunicate you but you cannot excommunicate the Pope .... in exactly the same way that your boss can fire you but you cannot fire your boss.

Originally Posted by undotwa

Now, I'm not suggesting that what I'm saying conforms with reality.

I'm not sure that what you are saying even conforms with theory ... even in its ideal, the notion of being "called to different stations in life" either in secular life or in the church is the hint that, yes indeed, it's all about power. The fact that women, by virtue of simply not having a penis, are permanently relegated to a lower station is another hint that the its all about power.

Having said all that, I think if any woman is faithful enough (IMHO, foolish enough) to be part of an institution that caps and limits them, that is their own business (i.e. I don't think that the church is necessarily oppressive to women as long as they have the ability to choose whether or not to be a part of it).

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Right, Christianity is never about power; lower or higher power.
Tell that to the Pope.

Heck, the pope is German.

Have the German's ever been power hungry ?

-t

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by greenamp

This is nothing new really. Many ultra conservative Christian based churches do not let women participate in positions of authority where such would put them in a leadership position over a man.

It's pretty ludicrous but it's the least of their absurdity. Mennonites and Amish actually make their females wear a covering on their heads as an outward sign of their submission to male authority.

Damn women. Next thing you know, they'll be wantin' the right to vote.

[Spliffdaddy]

The way I see it is men gave 'em that right - and we can take it away!

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Krusty

...

What is above = non sequitur.

You are just missing the point. There are paradigms and there is reality. Yes, so much of the Church's history has been tainted by power struggles. The Church is human after all and is full of sinners. But that does not mean that the Church is about power. The Church is about the individual salvation of every single soul.

The Church has a hierarchy not because it wants to have power over people but rather because you need a hierarchy in order to function properly. The Church is organised upon human principles - we humans need hierarchy. A government cannot function without hierarchy and nor can the Church. [By the way the same principle applies to the government. The government does not exist because of power but in order to service the needs of humanity. In the same way, power structures within the Church exist in order to service our salvation. This however is the paradigm]

You are seeing the Church from a very secular point of view. The Church has a supernatural function in our society and therefore you must look at the Church from a supernatural perspective. The vast majority of Catholics do not see the Church as an institution that is imposing anything upon them. I'd say too the vast majority of priests see their role as 'pastores' of the flock, leading them to Christ and to salvation. Priests do not generally (although there are some exceptions) use the priesthood to exert control over people, but rather to place themselves at the service of the faithful. You consider what an average priest does daily - visiting prisons, hospitals, helping charities, providing mass, confessions, ministering to the poor, the destitute. This doesn't sound like the stuff someone on a power trip would do. Considering that this is the kind of stuff that the vast majority of clergy do every day (and have done since the beginning of the Church) I just cannot see how you could claim that it 'is all about power'.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Damn women. Next thing you know, they'll be wantin' the right to vote.

Oh don't get me started on universal suffrage... :-)

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by undotwa

What is above = non sequitur.

The Church has a hierarchy not because it wants to have power over people but rather because you need a hierarchy in order to function properly. The Church is organised upon human principles - we humans need hierarchy.

You are seeing the Church from a very secular point of view. The Church has a supernatural function in our society and therefore you must look at the Church from a supernatural perspective.

And herein lies the crux of the disagreement. There are tons of protestant churches that function just fine without the hierarchy. The protestant reformation was in a large degree exactly about this issue. I'm not looking at this from a "secular" viewpoint but from the very same viewpoint that the numerous protestant churches in this country look at it. Many protestant churches have re-formed their own hierarchies (e.g. Southern Baptist Convention)but, believe it or not, many others haven't ... and the end of the line as far as authority in the church literally stops at the individual preacher or minister of that church.
So my question to you would be .... Why .... why is it necessary to have the hierarchy "to function properly"? The (Southern Baptist) church I grew up in taught that the most important thing was the individual's personal relationship with God ... the church was secondary ... a "preferred" way of organizing so that like-minded believers could commune in fellowship with their Christian brethren. But in the end, there was no priest, church or organization that was necessary to intercede between the individual believer and his relationship with God. In other words, the "supernatural function" of the Catholic church is completely superfluous according to many of the protestant churches.

So, is the structure and hierarchy from Pope down to parishioner necessary or not ? If the answer is "yes", then a huge number Protestants are practicing an inferior form of Christianity. If the answer is "No", then that's tacitly admitting that the whole hierarchy of the church is an unnecessary, man-made, "add-on" that is not needed to achieve spirituality.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not a big fan of Catholicism, but no, it's NOT about power.

Catholicsm is absolutely centered around power. A strict heiarchal system with the Pope at the top. No one is closer to your God except the Pope, which makes him the most important, and therefore, holds the most powerful.

Originally Posted by undotwa

What you are saying does not really fit into the general history of the Church.

Yes it does. Religion is about control, and I don't only mean Christianity. Historically, Christianity (and for a while Islam) was the center of faith for most of Europe. There were many priests, cardinals, and popes who attained the position because it brought the most wealth and control. You were more powerful than the King himself.

Religion is used to control people, wealth, and resources. It's still used today (i.e. Bush & stem cell research) to create or veto laws that no reasonable person would do. You don't ware $25,000 worth of silk, gold, and jewelry because it makes you more divine.

While today many priests may not see it that way, women are not allowed to hold preisthood in many Christian occults because of long standing traditions of women not being able to own property or wealth. It has absolutely nothing to do with divinity and everything to do about control.

Originally Posted by undotwa

What about the millions of sisters? They have had a tremendous impact upon the Church. The protestant reformation proved devastating for women. For as the many convents shut down in protestant countries, women lost a way in which they could be educated.

Families could "donate" their unmarried daughters into a convent so they'd no longer be a financial burdon on the family. I agree that closing down the convents had a terrible effect on one of the very few ways for women to recieve an education at the time, but more often than not women didn't enter a convent out of choice.

However, taking down convents and keeping women docile and stupid is very much about control. Keep them in the kitchen and make them raise the kids.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Catholicsm is absolutely centered around power. A strict heiarchal system with the Pope at the top. No one is closer to your God except the Pope, which makes him the most important, and therefore, holds the most powerful.

Well good thing I wasn't arguing about the pope. What I commented on was about the women.

Yes it does. Religion is about control, and I don't only mean Christianity.

To you it is. To Christians it is not. Deal.