[Big Mac]

Switzerland looks like a really wonderful country. Is it as nice as the picturesque views make it seem?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Switzerland looks like a really wonderful country. Is it as nice as the picturesque views make it seem?

Yes, it indeed is. I enjoyed my one year stint there.

-t

[TETENAL]

Yes, Switzerland can be very beautiful.

[Big Mac]

It just seems like they have great views, great governance, very low unemployment, respect for private property and private gun ownership. Can we import some of their political leaders to the United States?

[Doofy]

You don't want their political leaders, Biggie. They're the same as everyone else's political leaders - it's only the Swiss constitution which is keeping them in check.

For example:

US IRS: "Let us have a look at all yer bank accounts, Switzerland."
Swiss Government: "OK, Amerika."
Swiss Supreme Court: "Ummm, no, you can't do that."
Swiss Government: "OK, Amerika, whenever you're ready."
Swiss Supreme Court: "No, No, No!"
Swiss Government: "Did someone say something? Hmmm. OK, whenever you're ready, Amerika."

Etc., etc..

[Eug]

I knew some people who lived there for a while, and they said it was nice, but somewhat exclusionary when it comes to culture and immigration. I don't know how true that is, but I've heard it from several different people.

Comments?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You don't want their political leaders, Biggie. They're the same as everyone else's political leaders - it's only the Swiss constitution which is keeping them in check.

Well how about their judges then?

Just like I suspected, look at their lowest marginal tax rates of the industrialized world.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Comments?

Just ask tooki

-t

[Eug]

Paging tooki!

[andi*pandi]

It was amazingly tidy, from what I saw my few days there.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Well how about their judges then?

They seem sensible.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Just like I suspected, look at their lowest marginal tax rates of the industrialized world.

I wouldn't be taking any notice of that article if I were you.

[mattyb]

I had a job offer there and tried to find out as much about living in Lausanne as possible.

In general : Low crime, clean, reliable, very very little corruption, good respect of the law. Seems to be 'well kept'. Expensive. Buying a house is really really expensive. Long term mortgages.

Bad points : its boring. There are lots of really annoying rules like you cannot run your washing machine after a certain time. You can't mow you lawn on Sundays. Visitors from outside the country cannot stay longer than they have permission for - you could get a visit from the police. In a small family (say 2 young kids) before the kids go to school full-time one parent won't be able to work due to the very odd pre-school hours. Like I already said it is very expensive - it would have cost me more than 10% of my salary to have my kids in school/nursery (both were under 6 at the time).

We were looking at living in France and commuting. Of course the rents in the surrounding French areas are also very expensive. Lucky that we didn't accept the job and then live in France, a few months later the Swiss franc fell against the Euro. The Frontaliers (people who work in Switzerland but live in France) were complaining that they are basically getting pay cuts every month.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I knew some people who lived there for a while, and they said it was nice, but somewhat exclusionary when it comes to culture and immigration. I don't know how true that is, but I've heard it from several different people.

I can confirm that. I lived in Switzerland for over ten years after I got my PhD. I first lived in Geneva (in the French part) and then moved to the German part.

Switzerland is a beautiful small country. If you're interested in hiking/skiing (Alps) or in discovering historic buildings and castles (no WWII damage) you'll have a blast. Life is expensive (a nice house will cost you ~ 1 Million$ and it won't be roomy), but salaries are great (grad students there make up to 45,000 $/year as TAs, don't even ask what lawyers carry home) and taxes are low. Health insurance is private but mandatory. It's really expensive. Civil servants usually know what they're doing and public services are reliable and quick. Corruption is almost nonexistent. The Swiss Federal Railways rock: there's hardly a place in Switzerland you can't reach by train or bus. They don't have real hi-speed rail like Germany or France, but the country's small so travel time is usually short anyway.

Crime is low and people tend to be decent. I mean that exactly that way. The thing is that people are correct, but often not more than that. It's easy to mistake them for cold and distant, but usually they're just much more withdrawn and shy than people in the US. You don't just talk to people if you don't know them. And if you do you'll notice their discomfort. People tend to be a bit 'complicated' about everything and they're usually never what you'd call laid back. They stick to the rules, do stuff by the book. Narrow-minded and boring would be a bit harsh, but you get the gist. Rules are important. Never ever break the rules, no matter how silly they may sound (like no laundry from noon to 2 pm). Repercussions will be harsh and promptly delivered. Your social status will suffer significant damage.

Unemployment is low, but it also has to do with the way they report it. In Switzerland once you've been unemployed for more than 18 months you are no longer considered unemployed. Instead you're "ausgesteuert" (forgot the French expression) which essentially means you've fallen out of the system. If you compare their unemployment to other countries in a more common metric you'll see their unemployment is similar to that of the Netherlands, Denmark, or Norway.

Gun ownership was a touchy subject. A lot of young Swiss men (and very few women) are enlisted and many of them are required to take their assault rifles and sidearms home when they complete military service (around ~19 ) up to the point where they're discharged (~ at age 35). Even then some of them chose to keep their guns. Don't be surprised if you see people in Switzerland walk around downtown shouldering this

on a regular Saturday afternoon. And yes, they're also issued ammo (it's sealed though). Enlisted citizens who carry a rifle (not those with just a pistol, medics for example) are required to go to the rifle range every other year or so until they are discharged. So there are a lot of guns in Swiss households. OTOH shootings in Switzerland are often committed with these guns (especially in cases where some drunk husband decides on a whim to take out his issues on his wife and children) and that usually leads to a huge uproar in the media and the country goes back to debating why soldiers are required to hand back their gas masks after service and/or training, but not their assault rifles. It's been a while since I've been there, but I got the impression this system was going to be changed in the not so distant future.

They respect private property but the irony is that few people in Switzerland own much. There's hardly another county in the world where the ratio of home owners to renters is so low. Most people live in rented apartments or they finally buy a tiny apartment after saving up for it for years only to then discover that every time they want to change something they need half the neighborhood's consent to actually do it. Building codes are ridiculously detailed and strict. The price of owning your home is high and very few people actually do so. On top of that the Swiss taxation system encourages those people who do want to buy a house to take out huge loans that they actually never end up paying back. They just pay interest forever. This leads to the somewhat awkward situation that most of the country actually belongs to banks, insurance companies, and pension funds. People do buy very nice cars though. Not trashy SUVs or silly ass jeeps, but really classy cars. And they do that often. On average a car stays in Switzerland for 7 years after it's bought. Then it's exported to poorer countries in Eastern Europe. I have never seen so many brand new Mercedes S class cars as in Zurich. And those are not leased (leasing the way it's done in the US is in principle illegal in Switzerland).

Finally taxes. They're low and there's no withholding tax. You get your entire salary transferred straight to your account every month. No deductions other than ~5% (unemployment, etc.) plus whatever pension fund you have chosen to pay into. But then once a year an awesome bill shows up in the mail and you think they must have added a zero too many. But that's not the case. So don't spend all your money. If you cheat when filling out your tax declaration you have a good chance of succeeding. If you're a regular employee they only do random checks. Even if they catch you cheating, they'll probably just make you pay the difference plus interest. They can't really charge you with anything though, since in Switzerland they have to prove you had malicious intent. Any 'mistake' you might have made is just that. This is the exact opposite of the IRS. For Swiss people this works quite well (you'd never cheat) but of course they know to check out foreigners. Foreigners new to the country are subject to a hefty withholding tax. Until they prove worthy.

And that's the other problem. Swiss people aren't exactly welcoming. The darker your skin, the more suspicious you become. Foreigners are held to a much higher standard and even though most Swiss are convinced they are not at all bigoted, they fail to recognize that double-standard. It depends a lot on where you go though. Blacks, devout muslims, or orthodox jews as well as openly gay people won't have much trouble in more liberal city like Zurich, but I wouldn't mention being any of those in remote or rural areas. It's not outright dangerous (Switzerland isn't Kentucky), but they'll let you know you aren't welcome to stay. Sometimes people claim the French part is more open than the German part, but I can't say that's my experience. Geneva (French) and Zurich (German) are similarly liberal, just as Fribourg (French, with a small German minority though) and Appenzell (German) are about equally conservative. I'd say it depends rather on how urban the area is. Anyway, there are unfortunately many conceited and even outright racist people who will provide you with a display of self-righteousness like you have never seen before. As a foreigner, forget about becoming part of Swiss society. You do that by growing up in Switzerland and speaking Swiss German dialect (in the German part) fluently. Once you've missed that opportunity, you'll never become a part of it. You don't become a Swiss citizen through a naturalization process. You're granted citizenship as a 'gift' by a municipality that sometimes actually holds a public vote on the matter. You also pay for it like there's no tomorrow. A former colleague of mine from China became Swiss after having lived and worked in Switzerland for over 15 years. It cost him about $12,000 in fees.

It's an interesting country and it's a nice place to live. But I can't say I really miss it. Ten years was enough.

[Phileas]

Personally, I can't stand the place. Narrow minded, bigoted and boring. Self righteous on the surface, but never have the Swiss been known to let morals stand in the way of a good profit.

The Swiss banks were huge supporters of Nazi Germany, propping up the regime until the tide changed, then pretended it never happened.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Simon

And that's the other problem. Swiss people aren't exactly welcoming. The darker your skin, the more suspicious you become. Foreigners are held to a much higher standard and even though most Swiss are convinced they are not at all bigoted, they fail to recognize that double-standard. It depends a lot on where you go though. Blacks, devout muslims, or orthodox jews as well as openly gay people won't have much trouble in more liberal city like Zurich, but I wouldn't mention being any of those in remote or rural areas. It's not outright dangerous (Switzerland isn't Kentucky), but they'll let you know you aren't welcome to stay. Unfortunately there are many conceited and even outright racist people who will provide you with a display of self-righteousness like you have never seen before. As a foreigner, forget about becoming part of Swiss society. You do that by growing up in Switzerland and speaking Swiss German dialect (in the German part) fluently. Once you've missed that opportunity, you'll never become a part of it. You don't become a Swiss citizen through a naturalization process. You're granted citizenship as a 'gift' by a municipality that sometimes actually holds a public vote on the matter. You also pay for it like there's no tomorrow. A former colleague of mine from China became Swiss after having lived and worked in Switzerland for over 15 years. It cost him about $12,000 in fees.

Yes, while I did hear from caucasians that Switzerland isn't exactly welcoming, my impression of what I heard from visible minorities was somewhat more negative. AFAIK, I haven't met any openly gay people that have lived in Switzerland though.

These are people who ended up moving to the US or Canada, so maybe it's a partially biased group, and they didn't move to Podunk USA, but to larger metropolitan cities. They said those cities weren't always exactly welcoming either, but they felt like they were just treated like everyone else - with equal indifference - and that made them feel more comfortable.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I can confirm that. I lived in Switzerland for over ten years after I got my PhD. I first lived in Geneva (in the French part) and then moved to the German part.

Wow, thank you so much for the highly edifying post, Simon. That kind of summary of how things are really like is exactly what I was hoping to get from this thread.

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Personally, I can't stand the place. Narrow minded, bigoted and boring. Self righteous on the surface, but never have the Swiss been known to let morals stand in the way of a good profit. The Swiss banks were huge supporters of Nazi Germany, propping up the regime until the tide changed, then pretended it never happened.

I wasn't going to bring up the Nazi angle (particularly given my reputation for nagging people over Nazis). The bankers did very evil things, but at least they weren't killing people directly, right?

I kind of assumed that Switzerland was closed off and anti-foreigner just based on the fact that it's a homogeneous society that doesn't seem like it accepts change all that readily. I wanted to see if my assumptions were correct, and they were largely verified. Still seems like a nice place to visit though, which is why I guess the financial titans go to Davos.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The bankers did very evil things, but at least they weren't killing people directly, right?

If you, knowingly, give an evil regime the money it needs to buy the guns to kill the people then you are culpable in my book. Anti-semitism in Switzerland was rampant during the early 20th century and support for Hitler's policies widespread.

[stumblinmike]

So summing up...great tax rate, but possibly in cahoots with the Nazi's...hmmm...good for money, bad for people...Pack your bags Mac, you'll love it there! Send me a postcard.....

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by stumblinmike 

So summing up...great tax rate, but possibly in cahoots with the Nazi's...hmmm...good for money, bad for people...Pack your bags Mac, you'll love it there! Send me a postcard.....

I'll join Big Mac.

Much better than payrolling those lazy ass leftists in the US or elsewhere.

-t

[The Final Dakar]

Heh.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by stumblinmike 

So summing up...great tax rate, but possibly in cahoots with the Nazi's...hmmm...good for money, bad for people...Pack your bags Mac, you'll love it there! Send me a postcard.....

So, by that logic, when are you moving to N. Korea?

Also, you do realize that Mac is Jewish, and you may have heard about it, but there was that whole thing with the holocaust? Implying that he would approve of that is disgusting.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

The Swiss Federal Railways rock: there's hardly a place in Switzerland you can't reach by train or bus.

It is quite expensive though.

Every winter I find myself in Switzerland at one point, and the train ticket for a day to get from the airport to the city is about US$40.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

It is quite expensive though.

Well duh, you're in Switzerland. A country where clerks make $70,000/year.

Every winter I find myself in Switzerland at one point, and the train ticket for a day to get from the airport to the city is about US$40.

Their one-day passes are actually quite a bargain. In that one day you could travel from Basle to Geneva, from Geneva to Lausanne, Lucerne, and Lugano and all the way back to Zurich via Chur. You would have ended up traveling about 600 miles in very comfortable trains. Some even with panoramic dining cars. You would have been to four corners of the country and you would have visited four culturally very different areas, seen the borders of Western Europe's Germanic and Romanic heritages. Spoken to people in four languages (or at least you would have heard them speak it), and passed some of the most beautiful scenic routes areas Europe has to offer. All for $40. I can't fly from SFO to LAX for $40. And even then all I get is harassment from TSA and a dirty cramped plane.

There's a lot to criticize about Switzerland. But their public transportation in general and trains in particular are only rivaled by Japan IMHO (I do like the ICE3, TGV, and AVE too though).

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by Simon 

But their public transportation in general and trains in particular are only rivaled by Japan IMHO.

And Hong Kong.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Wow, thank you so much for the highly edifying post, Simon. That kind of summary of how things are really like is exactly what I was hoping to get from this thread.

Glad you liked it, Big Mac.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask. It's been a while since I've been there, but I should still be able to help.

If you do decide to head over there one piece of advice. Go to In-n-Out as often as you can before you leave LA. You won't find a burger like that over there. While I was living in Switzerland that was one of the things I really missed. And whenever I visited back home that's one of the first things I'd do after getting out of SFO.