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NYCFarmboy · Nov 10, 2004, 09:06 AM

Of God and Europe
Unlike America's, Europe's political establishment is hostile to Christianity.

BY ROCCO BUTTIGLIONE
Wednesday, November 10, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

ROME--George W. Bush concluded his election victory speech with "God bless America." It's likely that in the European Parliament, the U.S. president would be considered unfit for his job on account of his religious beliefs. Even worse, for Europe's legislators, would be that he's not ashamed to express those beliefs so clearly and so publicly.

If you consider that Mr. Bush won re-election in part because of his firm stand on family values and other moral issues, it becomes apparent that Europe and United States are drifting apart not only on foreign policy but also on their vision of a democratic society and of the proper relationship between politics and ethics.

One of America's founding fathers, Alexander Hamilton, was convinced that politics needed values it could not produce itself and had to rely on other agencies (mainly the churches) to nurture the virtues civil life needs. The state could therefore not privilege any church in particular but had to maintain a positive attitude to religion in general.

Jean Jacques Rousseau thought, on the contrary, that the state needed a kind of civil religion of its own and the existing churches had to bow to this civil religion by incorporating its commandments in their theology. Many scholars see in this idea of Rousseau's the seminal principle of totalitarianism. The tradition of Rousseau and of the Jacobins has survived in Europe in less virulent forms than in the not too distant past, but it's still part of the European political and ideological landscape.

These differing philosophical approaches to religion and politics do not give us, however, the whole truth. In the 1960s, both Europe and the United States lived through a cultural era that belittled traditional values and wanted to prepare the young generation for a world of tomorrow in which individual responsibility, self-sacrifice and other virtues of the past would be needed no more. In this world nobody would need moral convictions. It would be a world without the constraint of limitedness disposable resources. Nobody would need to toil for his bread.

Unfortunately that tomorrow did not come. What came, on the contrary, was the collapse of communism. We still live in a world in which resources are limited, we have to work hard to have our share of them, we need the support of a family and we need the old traditional virtues that had been too easily dismissed. Americans have become aware of this state of affairs sooner than Europeans. This is another explanation of the difference between the two sides of the Atlantic. But we can expect also in Europe a change of attitudes within a comparatively short period of time. Our struggling economy and ageing society can survive and be modernized only if we recover at least some of the values of the past--among them the ethics of hardworking and caring fathers and mothers.

This is difficult to accept in Europe because our intellectuals were always convinced that modernity brings with itself the extinction of religious faith. Now America, the most advanced country in the world, shows us that religion may be and indeed is a fundamental element of a free society and of a modern economy.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005873

tae667 · Nov 10, 2004, 09:18 AM

Religion is a personal affair and it should be kept as far as possible from politics. It doesn't have anything to do with believing in god(or any other fairy tale).

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 09:23 AM

You have no idea who Rocco Buttiglione is do you??? [Directed to NYCFarmboy]

NYCFarmboy · Nov 10, 2004, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
You have no idea who Rocco Buttiglione is do you??? [Directed to NYCFarmboy]

Oh I know very much who he is, and disagree with him on many fundemental issues. But it is a debate of ideas...no?

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Oh I know very much who he is, and disagree with him on many fundemental issues. But it is a debate of ideas...no?

(This post will be deticated to Dr. Rocco Buttiglione to help people see where he's coming from...)

I have to question your intentions then.

A disclaimer before continuing: I'm a Christian. This is not 'religion bashing' for I'm very much for religion and am concerned about the atheist trends of the shallow RealityTV trend all over.

Speaking of which, Dr. Buttiglione describes himself as a devout Christian as well. Roman Catholic to be precise. He's a man with deep moral convictions and sense of purpose. He's convinced homosexuality is a sin. Be that as it may be he has never tried to hide that opinion. To quote him:

"I may think that homosexuality is a sin, and this has no effect on politics, unless I say that homosexuality is a crime,"

Too bad he was being interviewed for the position of commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security of the European Union. Tsk tsk. And the Italians were upset when he became persona non grata?

Furthermore Buttiglione has strong opinion of immigration. He'd rather have much much less of it. And he'd like to set up camps in Africa (humanitarian camps -- what else?..)
I can sympathize with Dr. Buttiglione to some extent here, from what I hear Rome and many parts of Italy are overflowing with illegal immigrants.

Lastly Dr. Buttligione is a misogynist. How last century of him. He fully supports papal pronouncements on reproductive rights and sought to reduce women�s control over their own bodies by seeking to increase the involvement of men in the abortion decision in Italy.
He has 0% respect for women's rights, whether it concerns their bodies or their carrier.

Good work there.

He's not done yet.

�The family exists in order to allow women to have children and to have the protection of a male who takes care of them. This is the traditional vision of marriage that I defend.�

He's naturally against - as in vehemently - gay marriages. Being gay is a sin. And his definition above does not fit with gay marriages I fear. Sorry.

He did say the following:

"The rights of homosexuals should be defended on the same basis as the rights of all other European citizens. I would not accept the idea that homosexuals are a category apart."

...But I guess he didn't really mean it. Not that anyone expected him to. The quote above was taken from a statement of his with the EU commission. One has to be polite when addressing those guys.

Unfortunately for Dr. Rocco he declared that:

�All are free to call me a bigot and intolerant, but I very freely define homosexual behaviours as an indicator of moral disorder.�

I think I'll just take him up on his offer and call him a bigot and intolerant. I think he could at least have held his integrity had he been honest with the EU commission - the job he would never get.

�I would not want, as a Spanish citizen, to have a minister of justice who thinks that homosexuality is a sin and that a woman should stay at home to have children under the protection of her husband�. These are shocking attitudes�that is the least that one can say.�

-Josep Borell, president of the European Parliament, October 7, 2004.15

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 10:36 AM

My reaction to the opinion piece written by Dr. Rocco Buttiglione was mild confusion to begin with. The title see, is Of God and Europe - Unlike America's, Europe's political establishment is hostile to Christianity.

I'm not that concerned about the US or his comments on how things are or are not there. I don't live there, probably never will and can't really comment on the religious climate there. I'm simply not in any contact with it. I'll just trust Rocco on that one.

I am on the other hand quite familiar with how it is to be a Christian in Europe. It's pretty good. Christianity is very strong here in Spain and apparently Italy and Portugal. Religion is a very strong motivational force in people's lives here and it is taken very seriously. My experience isn't bound to southern Europe. In the north I've become quite familiar with Scandinavia where Lutherian protestantism is the most common flavor of Christianity. It's not exactly the same as Catholicism but similar. It is nothing like US Evangelism or heretic fringe-religions like that.

Norway is headed by Kjell-Magne Bondevik, himself a protestant minister and throughout Scandinavia the church is either a part of the state or under its protection. The national hymns of every country in Europe that I know of praise God, of all nations perhaps Iceland stands out for the Icelandic national hymn is more like a psalm than a hymn. The first verse can be read here in English

So in the very beginning I didn't quite follow where Dr. Rocco was going. He wasn't describing the Europe I live in.

Having read the opinion piece I can't say I think much of it. The title is inflammatory, tricks you into reading it (thinking this will be about God and Europe -- ) and it ends up being either a piece on why Bush won the elections this month, on how god-fearing US people are or a whiny 'me and my bestest buddy the Pope didn't get to have the word 'God' in the EU constitution'. Take your pick.

It certainly wasn't about God and Europe, religion and Europe.. pretty much not about Europe at all.

I think his entire piece can be summed up in his last line:

"Now America, the most advanced country in the world, shows us that religion may be and indeed is a fundamental element of a free society and of a modern economy."

Agree or disagree? I choose option 3. I don't care. Especially when it comes from the mouth of Dr. Rocco Buttiglione.

OreoCookie · Nov 10, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Of God and Europe
Unlike America's, Europe's political establishment is hostile to Christianity.

[snip]

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005873

Do you have an idea who this guy is? And what kind of events made him write that?

UnixMac · Nov 10, 2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by tae667:
Religion is a personal affair and it should be kept as far as possible from politics. It doesn't have anything to do with believing in god(or any other fairy tale).

pretty silly concept really... everything political has a personal nature, thus the term's origin.

Religion is important, but tolerance is equally important as God is the final judge.

However, governments which represent the people, should also represent their views. So if some laws are colored by religiosity then that is humanity at work.

Tarambana · Nov 10, 2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:

[Long snip of great post]

I think I'll just take him up on his offer and call him a bigot and intolerant.

�Fant�stico!

Me has ahorrado bastantes l�neas tratando de explicar por qu� la cuesti�n con el Sr. Buttiglione no tiene nada (o casi nada) que ver con la libertad de creencias religiosas.

Cojonudo el mensaje. As� da gusto.

Saludos.

OreoCookie · Nov 10, 2004, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Oh I know very much who he is, and disagree with him on many fundemental issues. But it is a debate of ideas...no?

Nope, if you try to point out that Europe is anti-Christian, just because an extreme right-winger cries foul.

UnixMac · Nov 10, 2004, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Nope, if you try to point out that Europe is anti-Christian, just because an extreme right-winger cries foul.

Sorry to rain on your pride... but Europe turned their back to God with the WWII Generation. France and Italy both are the worse offenders.

Disgraceful, really.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 10, 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by UnixMac:
Sorry to rain on your pride... but Europe turned their back to God with the WWII Generation. France and Italy both are the worse offenders.

Disgraceful, really.

Interesting theory.

I'd be interested in even the slightest bit of background to your reasoning, because I think you're full of it.

If you're attempting to criticize the clear separation of church and state, then I'm afraid you're going to have serious trouble justifying whatever argument you're trying to make.

-s*

Sherwin · Nov 10, 2004, 01:55 PM

I had a read of an original print of this last night and it kinda sums up the situation in England...

"Also, the common people are without definite religious belief, and have been so for centuries. The Anglican Church never had a real hold on them, it was simply a preserve of the landed gentry, and the Nonconformist sects only influenced minorities. And yet they have retained a deep tinge of Christian feeling, while almost forgetting the name of Christ. The power-worship which is the new religion of Europe, and which has infected the English intelligentsia, has never touched the common people."

TETENAL · Nov 10, 2004, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by UnixMac:
Europe turned their back to God with the WWII Generation. France and Italy both are the worse offenders.

Disgraceful, really.

Offenders? Since when is it a crime again not to be Christian?

TETENAL · Nov 10, 2004, 02:27 PM

Americans' argument that Europeans favor gay marriage because they have lost touch with their religious base is simply not true, said Michael Bochow, a Berlin sociologist who studies gay relationships and marriage. Indeed, various conservative parties have the word "Christian" in their party name (aka Christian Democrats) and take their religion quite seriously. They just don't, says Bochow, combine it with their politics. [...]

"Bush and other conservative American politicians are constantly calling for God to play a role in their policies," he explained. "Religious Germans are shocked by this mix of religion with politics. In Europe we call that blasphemy. It is the usurping of religion and God for a political agenda. We just can't understand it. And on the one hand we see America putting people to death (through capital punishment) and we also see that men and women don't have the right to love other men and women and marry them. To us it's crazy."

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...327229,00.html

Sherwin · Nov 10, 2004, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
"To us it's crazy."

Meanwhile, to Americans it's crazy how Germany is the number one market for Mr Hasselhoff's audio products. Even if they were looking for freedom.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 10, 2004, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Meanwhile, to Americans it's crazy how Germany is the number one market for Mr Hasselhoff's audio products. Even if they were looking for freedom.

Lame, old, untrue, and what exactly was your point again?

UnixMac · Nov 10, 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Interesting theory.

I'd be interested in even the slightest bit of background to your reasoning, because I think you're full of it.

If you're attempting to criticize the clear separation of church and state, then I'm afraid you're going to have serious trouble justifying whatever argument you're trying to make.

-s*

Purely anecdotal I'm afraid... but I travel quite a lot in my work, and church attendance alone in Europe is abysmal.

UnixMac · Nov 10, 2004, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Offenders? Since when is it a crime again not to be Christian?

Offense can be taken from non-criminal acts... like farting in public is offensive, but not criminal. Understand the language better please.

And nobody said anything about Christian... there are other religions with moral values out there.

Shaddim · Nov 10, 2004, 05:45 PM

In which European countries is gay marriage legal? So far, I can only find 2, the Netherlands and Belgium.

UnixMac · Nov 10, 2004, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
In which European countries is gay marriage legal?

Holland I believe? But their all on their way.. Europe is very "modern"

This is why they're the economic titan that the are for some 760,000,000 people.

TETENAL · Nov 10, 2004, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
In which European countries is gay marriage legal? So far, I can only find 2, the Netherlands and Belgium.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,327229,00.html

legislators in Denmark, Holland, Belgium and most recently Spain have voted to give gays marriage rights just like heterosexuals. Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg, Hungary, Portugal, Switzerland, Finland and Croatia have civil union laws, which stop short of calling themselves gay marriage, but which grant gay couples most rights enjoyed by married couples. The United Kingdom, which outlawed homosexuality until 1967, is poised to pass a similar law any day. And in Germany, the civil partnership law got amended in October to allow for the adoption of children by gay partners. When the original law passed, in July 2001, 72 percent of women and 61 percent of men supported gay marriage.

Shaddim · Nov 10, 2004, 05:53 PM

Ok, so Civil Union

, marriage

And everyone is alright with the "seperate but equal" treatment in most of Europe?

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
In which European countries is gay marriage legal?

In Holland/Netherlands, Denmark, Germany (does not cover adoption), Norway, Catalunya (Spain) and in many other European countries (such as Iceland) countries gay partnerships have most the legal rights of the married partnerships. It is of course always up to the church in question whether they allow same sex marriages, but the above countries and states ok it if they do.

http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/alt...d_/index.shtml

Wiskedjak · Nov 10, 2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Of God and Europe
Unlike America's, Europe's political establishment is hostile to Christianity.

Perhaps Europeans simply understand the concept of "separation of church and state" better than American's do ...

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Ok, so Civil Union , marriage

And everyone is alright with the "seperate but equal" treatment in most of Europe?

no, read the posts before jumping to your already formed conclusion.

Spliffdaddy · Nov 10, 2004, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Ok, so Civil Union , marriage

And everyone is alright with the "seperate but equal" treatment in most of Europe?

Aw c'mon. All you hafta do is agree to stay together for 6 months and then jump through a lot of other hoops - and maybe you can have some of the 'rights' of heterosexual married couples.

lol.

America, BAD.

SimeyTheLimey · Nov 10, 2004, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Perhaps Europeans simply understand the concept of "separation of church and state" better than American's do ...

Hardly. Most of Europe has state supported churches with official religions funded by taxpayers.

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Hardly. Most of Europe has state supported churches with official religions funded by taxpayers.

No that is wrong.

Greece, Iceland, Norway, Denmark and what? Finland hardly make up most of Europe.

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Aw c'mon. All you hafta do is agree to stay together for 6 months and then jump through a lot of other hoops - and maybe you can have some of the 'rights' of heterosexual married couples.

lol.

America, BAD.

Make your own thread about the US if you want. This one is ours!

Spliffdaddy · Nov 10, 2004, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
No that is wrong.

No, Simey is right.

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
No, Simey is right.

Make your own thread about your fictional world then.

Stay on topic please.

Spliffdaddy · Nov 10, 2004, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
Make your own thread about your fictional world then.

Stay on topic please.

You're drifting off topic.

PS, I WAS discussing Europe - just as the title implies. Europeans haven't embraced gay marriage AT ALL. In the few countries where there is any legislation, there are prohibitive rules which aren't present in heterosexual marriages - and their 'gay marriage' ain't called 'marriage'.

Shaddim · Nov 10, 2004, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
no, read the posts before jumping to your already formed conclusion.

I read the above, and that's what it said.

Legislators in Denmark, Holland, Belgium and most recently Spain have voted to give gays marriage rights just like heterosexuals. Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg, Hungary, Portugal, Switzerland, Finland and Croatia have civil union laws, which stop short of calling themselves gay marriage, but which grant gay couples most rights enjoyed by married couples. The United Kingdom, which outlawed homosexuality until 1967, is poised to pass a similar law any day. And in Germany, the civil partnership law got amended in October to allow for the adoption of children by gay partners. When the original law passed, in July 2001, 72 percent of women and 61 percent of men supported gay marriage.

Most ain't all, and seperate ain't equal [period]

SimeyTheLimey · Nov 10, 2004, 06:11 PM

Countries with established religions

That's much of Europe. The US states disestablished just after the Revolution.

Shaddim · Nov 10, 2004, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
No that is wrong.

Greece, Iceland, Norway, Denmark and what? Finland hardly make up most of Europe.

Germany? The UK? Spain? Italy? Croatia (and most other Slovakian and Ukrainian Orthodox states)?

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Ok, so Civil Union , marriage

And everyone is alright with the "seperate but equal" treatment in most of Europe?

This is what you wrote.

Not most, or some but implied ALL.

So many gay European citizens enjoy full marriage rights, most enjoy civil union rights with some limitations and yeah most Europeans are just fine with it and are moving towards giving full marriage rights to ALL citizens - be they gay or not. That is what is 'alright' with everyone in Europe.

Your Anti-European sentiments are so shallow.

Spliffdaddy · Nov 10, 2004, 06:15 PM

Odd how 'Europe' includes & excludes different countries all the time - depending on who you ask - and when.

Is there some sort of comprehensive list of European countries?

SimeyTheLimey · Nov 10, 2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Germany? The UK? Spain? Italy? Croatia (and most other Slovakian and Ukrainian Orthodox states)?

Germany is an odd case. It doesn't have a state religion, but there is a Church Tax that the state imposes if you are a member of a church. Obviously, when the state is collecting money for a religion, that can't really be called separation of church and state, even if it is semi-voluntary.

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Germany? The UK? Spain? Italy? Croatia (and most other Slovakian and Ukrainian Orthodox states)?

I'm talking about churches that are state controlled. Directly.

Churches may or may not get temporary or incidental funds from states. That is regardless of their faith or origin.

What is your point.

Shaddim · Nov 10, 2004, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
This is what you wrote.

Not most, or some but implied ALL.

So many gay European citizens enjoy full marriage rights, most enjoy civil union rights with some limitations and yeah most Europeans are just fine with it and are moving towards giving full marriage rights to ALL citizens - be they gay or not. That is what is 'alright' with everyone in Europe.

Your Anti-European sentiments are so shallow.

I'm just pointing out some observations, and you get "touchy". If you don't take what I'm dishing out, you'd better shut up regarding US matters. We take a lot of European "probing" regarding our affairs and laws, it's about time you did the same.

And I wrote Most, go back and check, amigo.

SimeyTheLimey · Nov 10, 2004, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
I'm talking about churches that are state controlled. Directly.

Churches may or may not get temporary or incidental funds from states. That is regardless of their faith or origin.

What is your point.

Funding religion through taxes is not separation of church and state.

Shaddim · Nov 10, 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Germany is an odd case. It doesn't have a state religion, but there is a Church Tax that the state imposes if you are a member of a church. Obviously, when the state is collecting money for a religion, that can't really be called separation of church and state, even if it is semi-voluntary.

Yeah, I know, that's why I lumped it in. It's not truly "seperate" and it's an odd situation.

Doesn't Germany also restrict which churches (especially new churches) can establish there? I know many European countries do.

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Odd how 'Europe' includes & excludes different countries all the time - depending on who you ask - and when.

Is there some sort of comprehensive list of European countries?

Depends whether you're talking about the EU or Europe as a continent.

EU and Europe aren't interchangeable terms but it is easier to say Europe rather than 'the EU, Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein and a number of other countries' when talking about Western Europe. IMO

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I'm just pointing out some observations, and you get "touchy". If you don't take what I'm dishing out, you'd better shut up regarding US matters. We take a lot of European "probing" regarding our affairs and laws, it's about time you did the same.

And I wrote Most, go back and check, amigo.

Ah don't get me wrong. I'm jabbing you back for the endless retorts I've had from YOU from daring to talk about US issues

Hence the Anti-European comment. quid pro quo

Yeah you wrote 'most' but I didn't want you to misunderstand anything so I made it absolutely clear.

UnixMac · Nov 10, 2004, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Funding religion through taxes is not separation of church and state.

We don't really have a "Separation of Church and State" here the way liberal interpreters of the Constitution like to say. We have an establishment clause as it's known that basically prohibits the state from establishing a religion or preferring one over another. It doesn't prohibit the government from working with all of the various religions like Bush wants to do with his initiative.

Atheists have their own view about this, and it's not constitutionally accurate IMHO.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 10, 2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Germany is an odd case. It doesn't have a state religion, but there is a Church Tax that the state imposes if you are a member of a church. Obviously, when the state is collecting money for a religion, that can't really be called separation of church and state, even if it is semi-voluntary.

Actually, it gets weirder than that:

The church "tax" is called a "tax", even though it is only collected if you're a registered church member; the state is only a proxy and passes it on directly, untouched. Since it's technically a donation to a non-profit organization, the church "tax" is in fact tax-deductible (you note on your tax forms how much church tax you donated the previous year).

Why it's called a church "tax", I don't know - though I suspect it's merely because the state collects it for the churches. I don't know how this system developed, but it's definitely not a church advantage in terms of political leverage, so it can't really be considered an undermining of the separation of church and state IMO.

Still weird, though. But the German tax system is a bureaucratic nightmare, in every respect.

-s*

Spliffdaddy · Nov 10, 2004, 06:33 PM

So they collect money from registered church-goers - but, somehow, it's not a 'tax', it's a 'tax-deductible donation' - and this money goes to the churches?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that it is a blatant effort to unseparate the state from the church - just because.

As if the government didn't like the notion of having no control over religion...so they keep a little bit of control, just in case.

Having to register with the state in order to attend church is kinda strange. Makes me wonder how much paperwork and red tape is involved with owning a firearm there.

voodoo · Nov 10, 2004, 06:40 PM

We are all different but we are united.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 10, 2004, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Yeah, I know, that's why I lumped it in. It's not truly "seperate" and it's an odd situation.

Doesn't Germany also restrict which churches (especially new churches) can establish there? I know many European countries do.

The USA does, too.

For-profit organizations do not qualify as religions there, either, IIRC.

Except Scientology, for some bizarre reason.