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fxbezak · Mar 30, 2003, 03:22 PM

http://www.conservativefrontline.com

This makes we want to throw up. And just to think, he aparently cheered on by 3000 students of Columbia liberal univ all feel the same way. Why do we let these people live here?

finboy · Mar 30, 2003, 04:16 PM

But all that talk about academia being a Leftist stronghold is just political rhetoric and liberal-bashing with not a shred of truth.

Of course it links to a conservative organization, but the words of the Left in academe shouldn't surprise anybody. Most of these professors live in a fantasy world where (as we've seen on these boards) socialism and global peace just need a second chance to take root, criminals are just people who haven't been healed yet, and the American voter has been somehow brainwashed (against all odds) to vote for Republicans at the national level and Democrats at the local level.

Kitschy · Mar 30, 2003, 04:41 PM

Wow. What can I say.

"Usually the nonsense liberals spout is kind of cute, but in wartime their instinctive idiocy is life-threatening. -- Ann Coulter"

fxbezak · Mar 30, 2003, 04:57 PM

Move over Nancy Pelosi... hte Democrats new leader has arrived.

macvillage.net · Mar 30, 2003, 05:25 PM

Funny how people always talk about "free speach", and how America is such a "free country".

Keep tabs on this professor and see what happens. If history repeats itself, he will be jobless, and possibly in legal trouble under every tiny little thing they can possibly nab him on.

fxbezak · Mar 30, 2003, 05:45 PM

Free Spech:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

There is no law or is anyone saying there should be about what he said. I do believe there should be actions taken against a person who so stongly thinks this is so evil.. like say deportation or even death. I think we should switch over to a "like it or leave it" mentality. its just more logical.

Developer · Mar 30, 2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
I think we should switch over to a "like it or leave it" mentality. its just more logical.

Yes, make the US a totalitarian dictature.

Nicko · Mar 30, 2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
http://www.conservativefrontline.com

This makes we want to throw up. And just to think, he aparently cheered on by 3000 students of Columbia liberal univ all feel the same way. Why do we let these people live here?

Consider the source before you decide whether to string this guy up eh?

BasketofPuppies · Mar 30, 2003, 06:03 PM

LINK

A bit dated and about terrorism and Afghanistan, not Iraq, but it fits this situation as well.

Better still, it puts down Ann Coulter too!

Millennium · Mar 30, 2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Funny how people always talk about "free speach", and how America is such a "free country".

Keep tabs on this professor and see what happens. If history repeats itself, he will be jobless, and possibly in legal trouble under every tiny little thing they can possibly nab him on.

Free sheech protects you from having any legal consequences for what you say. It says nothing whatsoever of social consequences. It's quite possible that he'll be fired; that's a social consequence, not a legal one. There is no law that says he must be fired; indeed, such a law could never be enforced even on the slim chance that it could be passed. Same as with all the idiocy surrounding the infamous statements by the Dixie Chicks; it's stupid, but it's a legitimate social consequence of what they said.

Just because you're allowed to speak your mind doesn't mean that we all have to agree with you. Nor does it mean we have no right to get mad when you say you want "a million Mogadishus", as this guy did. And should we decide to terminate our social dealings with you, that's our prerogative, thanks to another right guaranteed by the First Amendment, namely, freedom of association.

That's something which I think is lost on many of the anti-war protesters nowadays. Our right to freedom of association does not trump your right to freedom of speech, but the reverse isn't true either.

BasketofPuppies · Mar 30, 2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Nicko:
Consider the source before you decide whether to string this guy up eh?

CNN International

spacefreak · Mar 30, 2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Funny how people always talk about "free speach", and how America is such a "free country".

I didn't read anywhere that he was arrested, and I doubt he will be.

clod · Mar 30, 2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Kitschy:
"Usually the nonsense liberals spout is kind of cute, but in wartime their instinctive idiocy is life-threatening. -- Ann Coulter"

So true.

UNTeMac · Mar 30, 2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by clod:
So true.

Ugh...all these conservative verbal masturbation threads are getting old.

We're so great...liberals suck....wah wah

maxintosh · Mar 30, 2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
I do believe there should be actions taken against a person who so stongly thinks this is so evil.. like say deportation or even death.

Are you for real!?!?

CU is my alma mater. I think that what the professor said is indeed reprehensible. I think that calling for the death of ANYONE is reprehensible.

But please consider the bias of that news source....

finboy · 01:23 AM

[edit]

voodoo · Mar 30, 2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Kitschy:
Wow. What can I say.

"Usually the nonsense liberals spout is kind of cute, but in wartime their instinctive idiocy is life-threatening. -- Ann Coulter"

OK kitch. Here is a fun game for you:

Take any Ann Coulter quote that contains the words "liberal" or "democrat" and replace her name with them.

mathew_m · Mar 30, 2003, 10:31 PM

Liberals like this POS give the freedom of speech amendment a bad rap. Maybe he should start focusing on teaching his students things that will actually help them survive in this harsh world. Hopefully the POS will be fired and have to face some rough realities. Seriously I'm starting to re-think the purpose of Higher Education. They take all your rich mommy and daddy's money, let the poor and stupid in (murderers included) and then insult their bread and butter.

Read some of this for a welcome dose of reality:

http://www.aynrand.org/

maxintosh · 10:41 PM

Originally posted by mathew_m:
Liberals like this POS give the freedom of speech amendment a bad rap. Maybe he should start focusing on teaching his students things that will actually help them survive in this harsh world. Hopefully the POS will be fired and have to face some rough realities. Seriously I'm starting to re-think the purpose of Higher Education. They take all your rich mommy and daddy's money, let the poor and stupid in (murderers included) and then insult their bread and butter.

Read some of this for a welcome dose of reality:

http://www.aynrand.org/

Seriously, who needs college anyway when you can just learn how to fire a gun.

Does Jerry Fallwell give the 1st Amendment a good rap?

Are all murderers poor and stupid?

Do you have a monopoly on reality?

BkueKanoodle · Mar 31, 2003, 12:13 AM

The ironic part of thiis is he said he wished for a "million mogadishus."

Just proves he really doesn't care about life at all, after all less then 80 us marines died, but over a 1000 Somalians were killed and wounded.

Everyone seems to think Mogadishu was a major miilitary failure for the US, in fact the accomplished their mission, and held their own against an armed 5000 strong crowd, including al-quaeda operatives.

The only failure was of the american media and the clinton administration for thinking they could go into a hsotile country without some casualties.

BasketofPuppies · Mar 31, 2003, 12:33 AM

Accomplished the mission in the same way George Herbert Walker Bush accomplished the mission of the first Gulf War.

The Clinton Administration panicked when American peace keepers were killed in Somalia. The mission may have been completed, but I can think of well over a hundred countries I rather live in than Somalia.

From then until Afghanistan, nation building was a dirty word.

Mastrap · Mar 31, 2003, 02:23 AM

"Treasonous" "Anti war - anti America"

I hear the jackboots in the distance. "Cheered by the audience" appears to be an outright lie. And this by the people who give Al Jazeera a hard time about flawed reporting. Hysterical languange, bent facts, blanket condemnation. What a great publication http://www.conservativefrontline.com is, what credibility. fxbezak, rather than just regurgitating this tripe you might have gone through the trouble of actually reading what really happened.

From the NYT:

The president of Columbia University said yesterday that he was horrified by the remarks of an anthropology professor who said at a campus antiwar teach-in Wednesday night that he hoped to see "a million Mogadishus" ? referring to the city in Somalia where American soldiers were ambushed in a lethal firefight in 1993.

The professor, Nicholas De Genova, also called for the defeat of United States forces in Iraq, and said the only true heroes are those who help defeat the American military. He said Americans who call themselves patriots are imperialist white supremacists.

"Under well-established principles of the First Amendment, this is within a person's right to free speech," Lee C. Bollinger, the president of Columbia, said in an interview. "Not for a second, however, does that insulate it from criticism. I am shocked that someone would make such statements. I am especially saddened for the families of those whose lives are now at risk."

Those who attended the teach-in said most of the audience stayed silent at Professor De Genova's reference to the Mogadishu ambush, an event portrayed in the movie "Black Hawk Down." The raid, on Oct. 3, 1993, in which 18 Americans were killed and 75 injured ? and the subsequent broadcast of images of a dead American being dragged through Mogadishu ? prompted President Bill Clinton to order a withdrawal of troops from Somalia, where they had been sent to help relieve a famine.

"Professor De Genova's speech did not represent the views of the organizers," said Eric Foner, a history professor who was one of the teach-in's organizers."I personally found it quite reprehensible. The antiwar movement does not desire the death of American soldiers. We do not accept his view of what it means to be a patriot. I began my talk, which came later, by repudiating his definition of patriotism, saying the teach-in was a patriotic act, that I believe patriots are those who seek to improve their country."

Professor De Genova's voice mail was not accepting messages yesterday. The anthropology department referred all calls concerning him to the public affairs office, where a spokesman said he had no further information on Professor De Genova, who is untenured and teaches anthropology and Latino studies.

The teach-in at Columbia, which went from 6 p.m. to midnight Wednesday and drew an audience of about 3,000, was organized by seven faculty members, who were joined by about two dozen other faculty members speaking on subjects like Middle East relations, civil liberties, pre-emptive war, the Geneva Conventions and Iraqi archaeological sites endangered by the war.

fxbezak · 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Nicko:
Consider the source before you decide whether to string this guy up eh?

Ok I will...
I am the source... its my webpage and I did the research to find the info. I even called the college. Its quite accurate.

You cant tell me that all of these liberals at that school are not happy the small guy said what they cant and took the hit for what he said rather than anyone else getting their tenured reputations blemished. Ok... you have appx 3000 students cheering this guy on.. you mean to tell me that the setiment of the school is not exactly that??? I mean you dont go to a concert because you hate the singer... These students, adults, believe the same things this guy said and you can bet your life the faculty does as well...

If thats not anti american I dont know what is

fxbezak · Mar 31, 2003, 09:19 AM

From the NYT:

Thats All I have to say....
From the NY times indeed.

voodoo · Mar 31, 2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
Thats All I have to say....
From the NY times indeed.

Are you some kind of a wierdo?

fxbezak · Mar 31, 2003, 10:54 AM

The NY times is one of THE most prominant liberal news sources out there....

Mastrap · Mar 31, 2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
The NY times is one of THE most prominant liberal news sources out there....

The NYT quoted and interviewed people who were actually there.
That has nothing to do with being liberal or not, it is just establishing the facts. It has a lot more of a reputation for professional journalism than you do by the looks of it. Their description of events also tallies with other sources, none of which agree with your hysterical description of 3000 students cheering an extremely tasteless anti war speech. So unless you can deliver actual proof that this event happened I am calling BS on that statement.

Before you attack an established newspaper's reputation I'd build one myself first - preferably one that isn't built on blanket condemnation and paranoia.

fxbezak · Mar 31, 2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Mastrap:
The NYT quoted and interviewed people who were actually there.
That has nothing to do with being liberal or not, it is just establishing the facts. It has a lot more of a reputation for professional journalism than you do by the looks of it. Their description of events also tallies with other sources, none of which agree with your hysterical description of 3000 students cheering an extremely tasteless anti war speech. Before you attack an established newspaper's reputation I'd build one myself first - preferably one that isn't built on blanket condemnation and paranoia.

The NY times is a widely known "spin on ink" publication
As for the 3000 students... ok how about an auditorium full of them. does that sound a little better and make you less upset?

Establishing the facts is great, but as we see by the NYT and CNN you can really do whatever you want with the facts. Like posting headlines about how "US marines opend fire on civilians"

for you liberals out there who are crying about the war:

Mastrap · Mar 31, 2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
The NY times is a widely known "spin on ink" publication
does that sound a little better and make you less upset?

[/img]

Fact remains: You've made stuff up, they didn't. Case closed.

As for the "opening fire on civilians" article, consider the source. The Times, one of the more conservative and pro war papers. Also, one of the finest articles about the reality of warfare I've evr read.

fxbezak · Mar 31, 2003, 11:38 AM

What have I made up?

Mastrap · Mar 31, 2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
What have I made up?

There are no reports about 3000 students, or others, cheering that I can find. There are however reports of colleagues and students expressing regret about the statements made.

fxbezak · Mar 31, 2003, 11:47 AM

Ok so the 3 line statement made by the president shows remorse? of course not... its protocol.

Im glad to see your sticking up the the guy though.
you from france?

Mastrap · Mar 31, 2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
Ok so the 3 line statement made by the president shows remorse? of course not... its protocol.

Im glad to see your sticking up the the guy though.
you from france?

Excellent. You run out of arguments, you resort to jibes about perceived nationality. Well done.

For your information: I did not "stick up" for this guy. Ever. That statement is as much a figment of your imagination as the "3000 students cheering" by the looks of it.

FWIW I believe that the statement was tasteless in the extreme, that it did the anti war movement a huge disservice and that the guy who made it deserves all he's getting. And then some. Sadly being a college professor doesn't seem to guarantee intelligence by the looks of it.

Kitschy · Mar 31, 2003, 12:08 PM

From ConservativeFrontLine.com:
"...[R]ead about the anti american and treasonous statements that were MADE AND CHEERED ON by a university professor and 3000 of the countries most liberal and disgraceful students."

From NYTimes.com:
"Those who attended the teach-in said most of the audience stayed silent at Professor De Genova's reference to the Mogadishu ambush, an event portrayed in the movie 'Black Hawk Down.'"

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/29/ed...partner=GOOGLE

Yes, those horrible statements were "made" by that university professor as ConservativeFrontLine.com correctly state, but it seems that the statement in question was taken with incredulity by even the left-wing audience with him. Not "cheered on" like ConservativeFrontLine.com claims.

Nevertheless, that those statements were even made disgusts me.

fxbezak · Mar 31, 2003, 01:16 PM

Now lets read an article from a reliable source and read up a little further rather just the last sentance of that paragraph.
FoxNews
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82532,00.html

De Genova's hopes for the defeat of the United States were cheered by the crowd of 3,000, according to newspaper reports. But his mention of the Somali ambush -- "I personally would like to see a million Mogadishus" -- was largely met with silence.

Will the 3000 students that I made up and fabricated that cheered please stand up.

finboy · Mar 31, 2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
Are you some kind of a wierdo?

I don't think namecalling is in order here. If I can't call F*** A*** an idiot, you shouldn't talk that way to folks either.

Jacket · Mar 31, 2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
http://www.conservativefrontline.com

This makes we want to throw up. And just to think, he aparently cheered on by 3000 students of Columbia liberal univ all feel the same way. Why do we let these people live here?

that's liberals for ya.. insane isn't it..

check out my website when you get a chance. i'm sure you'd like it.

fxbezak · Apr 1, 2003, 08:19 AM

Oh I definitly like it. Nice Site

MikeM33 · Apr 1, 2003, 08:33 AM

This makes we want to throw up. And just to think, he aparently cheered on by 3000 students of Columbia liberal univ all feel the same way. Why do we let these

I suppose the same reason we let you live here.

MikeM

Timo · Apr 1, 2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by finboy:
But all that talk about academia being a Leftist stronghold is just political rhetoric and liberal-bashing with not a shred of truth.

Academia is a 'leftist' (to use a crude word) stronghold -- though you're probably referring to the humanities. I don't think, e.g., Harvard Business School is particularly 'leftist'.

That website, conservative front line, is very silly.

finboy · Apr 1, 2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Timo:
Academia is a 'leftist' (to use a crude word) stronghold -- though you're probably referring to the humanities. I don't think, e.g., Harvard Business School is particularly 'leftist'.

I'd disagree. All the talk of "stakeholders" is stealth-Leftist. There are plenty of other examples, even in "business" academics.

mo · Apr 1, 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by fxbezak:
Thats All I have to say....
From the NY times indeed.

That's all you need to say. I disagree with the professor's sentiments. But I trust the NYT infinitely more than your website.

ink · Apr 2, 2003, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
I didn't read anywhere that he was arrested, and I doubt he will be.

In Iraq, however, Hussein will have you shot (or much much worse) for speaking against him. Amerika is the evil one, though...

mikerally · Apr 2, 2003, 04:55 AM

The people or Iraq are actually free to say anything they want as long as the topic of the conversation/message isn't anti-Saddam Hussein/Anti-Regime/Plotting an Uprising/Spy related (essentially anything against the establishment).

In everyday life that accounts for very little of the conversations people hold - you're not going to be arrested for going to a fruit market and picking up a piece of fruit and yelling "This fruit tastes like crap!" are you?

If I remember correctly, when the Troops first landed in Umm Qasr with aid, one of the first things they were asked for was a packet of cigarettes.

If you look in the Market Streets of Bagdad, you'd find illegal VCDs of the current Hollywood films for sale.

What does freedom of speech matter in America? If all of those against the establishment are never listened to anyway?

MPC · Apr 2, 2003, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Jacket:
that's liberals for ya.. insane isn't it..

check out my website when you get a chance. i'm sure you'd like it.

Safari doesn't like your site... Blame Gore...

clarkgoble · Apr 2, 2003, 05:20 AM

The people or Iraq are actually free to say anything they want as long as the topic of the conversation/message isn't anti-Saddam Hussein/Anti-Regime/Plotting an Uprising/Spy related (essentially anything against the establishment).

In everyday life that accounts for very little of the conversations people hold - you're not going to be arrested for going to a fruit market and picking up a piece of fruit and yelling "This fruit tastes like crap!" are you?

Um, if the fruit tastes like crap because of sanctions due to Sadaam's actions, then yea. Sadaam's secret police might get rather upset. Consider that 60% of Iraq are dependent upon the government for food then criticizing the food is, in effect, criticizing the government.

Beside which limiting all speech to anything which doesn't criticize the establishment is extreme limiting of free speech. I'm not sure how you can possibly imagine it any other way.

Consider this. Most of us here on this forum would be tortured and killed just for expressing our views. Think about that.

MPC · Apr 2, 2003, 05:38 AM

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Consider this. Most of us here on this forum would be tortured and killed just for expressing our views. Think about that.

It sounds like they want to do that. By removing our somewhat hidden identity the internet provides us.

llinkage

For sure the internet doesn't hide us. Getting rid of routers and NAT so they can find us is a good step towards tracking our on-line movements. You said "bomb" and "Washington" in the same sentence. Let's talk..

Sven G · Apr 2, 2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by finboy:
Most of these professors live in a fantasy world where (as we've seen on these boards, socialism and global peace just need a second chance to take root, criminals are just people who haven't been healed yet, and the American voter has been somehow brainwashed (against all odds to vote for Republicans at the national level and Democrats at the local level).

Well... the fact is that you probably cannot deeply modify and improve (i.e., "humanise") "reality" without "fantasy" - it's all about a balanced interaction between emotions and reason!

BTW, remember Apple's Think Different... ?

Here�s to the crazy ones.

The misfits.

The rebels.

The troublemakers.

The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things differently.

They�re not fond of rules.

And they have no respect for the status quo.

You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,

disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.

About the only thing you can�t do is ignore them.

Because they change things.

They invent. They imagine. They heal.

They explore. They create. They inspire.

They push the human race forward.

Maybe they have to be crazy.

How else can you stare at an empty canvas and see a work of art?
Or sit in silence and hear a song that�s never been written?
Or gaze at a red planet and see a laboratory on wheels?

We make tools for these kinds of people.

While some see them as the crazy ones,
we see genius.

Because the people who are crazy enough to think
they can change the world, are the ones who do.

P.S.: Of course, it's rather difficult to get as unbiased as possible informations on prof. De Genova's most controversial opinions - I'd just add that demonising them might be typical of a certain, not-so-democratic attitude...

Timo · 04:18 PM

Originally posted by finboy:
I'd disagree. All the talk of "stakeholders" is stealth-Leftist. There are plenty of other examples, even in "business" academics.

Bah. BAH. Examples don't necessarily stand for the whole. Listen, if you're teaching at business school you've bought into a lot of assumptions, and let me tell you crypto-Leninist post-structuralism isn't one of them.

spacefreak · Apr 2, 2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Sven G:
it's rather difficult to get as unbiased as possible informations on prof. De Genova's most controversial opinions

His quotes from the rally are well documented. Getting unbiased information wasn't difficult at all, unless you feel that word-by-word, quoted statements made by DeGenova at the rally are biased.

I'd just add that demonising them might be typical of a certain, not-so-democratic attitude.

So, it's ok for Person A to make a statement, but not ok for Persons B, C, and D to disagree? That's undemocratic.

This outrage is as democratic as it gets. The government is not even remotely involved here.

An overwhelming majority of citizens have taken offense to DeGenova's statements, and are utilizing THEIR free speech rights to disagree with him.