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tomodachi · Nov 7, 2003, 03:39 AM

Sorry for the long title. But egad!
I've just gone through two 512MB/PC2100 RAM from TransIntl.com for my 1GHz/PB12" in the past several weeks (most of it spent on waiting for the replacement to be sent).

First one caused kernel panics left and right. And I mean, multiple kernel panics PER DAY. First I thought it was the newly installed Panther, so I did everything from re-installing, PRAM clear, PM reset, fsck -fy, you name it. I finally tracked the problem down to the memory -- didn't suspect it cuz TransIntl. isn't what you'd call an 'el-cheapo' memory joint.

Memory passed the Apple Hardware Test but sent it back. Just yesterday received the replacement and this time around, instead of kernel panics, I got, like, 10 freezes/no-wake-from-sleep/shut down instead of sleeping when lid closed/just random freezes for the heck of its, in the past 24 freakin' hours. I took the RAM out, and everything's fine (for the last 9 hours). Again, the memory passed AHT.

So what's the deal? Are RAMs in general getting crappy these days? Are new processors just demanding better chips? Is Panther especially stringent in its RAM preferences? This is so annoying...

I guess I'll just get a refund and buy memory from Apple or something...

Guy Kuo · Nov 7, 2003, 03:48 AM

Funny, I just went through almost exactly the same thing. Indeed the PB 12 inch 1 GHZ and Panther are extremely particular about RAM. You are not alone.

GK

- posted this on macworld forum but few minutes before finding your post here -

I recently acquired a 12 inch 1 GHz Powerbook (DVI Aluminum model) with Panther. I had heard of the 15 and 17 inch Aluminums being very particular about RAM, but nothing about the 1 GHz 12 inch. I assumed that the lack of reports meant that 3rd party RAM would be fine. After going through two different 3rd party 512 MB memory modules, I have to say this machine is incredibly picky about its RAM.

Despite multiple clean installs, resetting of NVRAM, PMU, and PRAM the 3rd party memory modules remained problematic. One was a PC2100 from TransIntl. The other was a PC2700 from Other World Computing. With the PC2100, the machine appeared stable - until after sleeping for more than a few minutes. A short sleep was fine. A longer sleep (> 5 min) and upon wake up it would frequently freeze or kernel panic. The OWC PC2700 module would sometimes cause a kernel panic during normal operation and also locked up the machine solid within several seconds of awakening from sleep. Removing the memory modules made the machine stable. Reinstallation, immediately caused the machiene to be unstable again. Pretty much met Koch's postulate for find the cause of a disease. Still I was not convinced it was a memory module issue. After all, both modules had been listed at the vendors web sites for the PB 12 inch 1 GHz model.

I was concerned that my machine's memory slot was at fault. Extended hardware test using Apple's utility passed both RAM modules, but the machine was definitely unstable with the 3rd party modules. Maybe it was my OS install. I reinstalled the OS multiple times. I reset PRAM, NVRAM, and PMU. All to no avail. There was definitely a hardware problem despite Apple's hardware test saying the RAM was okay.

Thanks to the Bellevue WA Apple Store's genius bar, I was able to test a genuine Apple memory module in the machine to see if it was the powerbook or my memory moduels. I was amazed to find that the Apple branded memory module solved the crash upon awakening problem. The Apple genius wasn't surprised at all. Apparently, Panther + the higher speed model makes for a machine which is extremely sensitive to memory characteristics. Despite passing the hardware tests, a 3rd party RAM module may still not work properly in the 1 GHz PB 12 inch.

I had hoped that much lower cost 3rd party RAM would work, but I must have a stable machine and it that means more expensive Apple RAM then that's what I've ended up using. The incompatible m oduels were

TransIntl 512 MB DDR DIMM (PC2100, CL-2.5) and
OWC2700DDR80512

TransIntl gave me an RMA without hesitation.
OWC I've had yet to contact about returning the incompatible module.

At any rate, consider this a report that the 1 GHz Powerbook 12 inch Aluminum (DVI) is more particular about RAM modules than usual.

tomodachi · Nov 7, 2003, 04:09 AM

Hey, glad (? in a weird way I guess) to hear I'm not the only one. How much did you pay for the Apple memory? I'm thinking about trying out Crucial ($125) as I've heard some positive reports regarding their RAMs.

Guy Kuo · Nov 7, 2003, 04:13 AM

It was a bit over $200. I agree that finding a 3rd party RAM would be cheaper, but I really needed to get my machine outfitted and stabilized ASAP. Let us know how you do with Crucial's RAM.

This is something other people shouldn't have to go through. We heard about problems on the new 15 and 17 inch models, but not the 12's.

I did let Mike Khan at TransIntl know about this thread. I'm sure they'll figure out what is going on and fix their memory. I have used both OWC and TransIntl memory in the past with good results, but not this time.

tomodachi · Nov 7, 2003, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by Guy Kuo:
It was a bit over $200. I agree that finding a 3rd party RAM would be cheaper, but I really needed to get my machine outfitted and stabilized ASAP. Let us know how you do with Crucial's RAM.

I will post here. I'm ordering the chip from Crucial as I speak...er, type.

This is something other people shouldn't have to go through. We heard about problems on the new 15 and 17 inch models, but not the 12's.

Amen. I think it's great that good memory vendors like TransIntl. will take back/replace memory, NQA, but there are others out there (like..*COUGH*Ka*COUGH*hlon*COUGH*) that will give you hell, if they give you a refund/replacement at all.

I did let Mike Khan at TransIntl know about this thread.

Great. Mike's my contact as well. It'll make negotiations easier that it already is to get my RMA.

slider · Nov 7, 2003, 05:00 AM

Definately post back. I have a 15" and have had some freezes and shutdowns instead of sleep. I thought it had something to do with the "longest battery life" pref. I got mine from 1-800-memory and paid extra for their "HyperSpeed" ram; think it was 88-mem. Anyways it will be interesting to see if those problems resolve or not. Thanks.

videian28 · Nov 7, 2003, 11:51 AM

I ordered a $100 noname chip from smalldog, have had no problems over the last month

Macbear · Nov 7, 2003, 12:46 PM

I'm using a 512 memory upgrade from Kingston RAM in my 12" revB PowerBook and have had no problems. I've always had good luck with Kingston RAM.

Guy Kuo · Nov 7, 2003, 01:47 PM

Good to hear some 3rd party modules are working. Are you both using Panther as well? That per the Apple Genius is tougher on RAM tolerance than Jaguar.

wahstar · Nov 8, 2003, 03:03 AM

I have been having no luck since getting Panther installed on my brand new 1G 12" G4 PB. Freezing regularly on wake or restart either on launch of first application or just prior. I'm a newbie switcher and I am wishing I hadn't. I have tried clean install panther, repairing File Permissions, Hardware Test (passed), and finally maybe this is my problem. How do I find out if it's the extra 512 RAM that I had installed on purchase. How do I know what sort of RAM it is? How to I remove it to see if that's the fix? Thanks for any help or advice. I'm about to jump on it!

tomodachi · Nov 8, 2003, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by wahstar:
How do I find out if it's the extra 512 RAM that I had installed on purchase. How do I know what sort of RAM it is? How to I remove it to see if that's the fix? Thanks for any help or advice. I'm about to jump on it!

Hey. Don't regret switching if its the RAM causing the trouble! ;-)

Easy way to find out. Shut down. Turn your PowerBook over. Take one of those fine-tipped (jeweler's) philips-head screw drivers and un-screw the 4 screws on the central plate. Take the plate off. Look inside and you should see the installed RAM. Un-latch the RAM by the 2 metal latches holding it in place (spread them out) and the memory module should "pop" upwards a little. Then, just gently pull up and away from the slot. Screw the plate back on. Boot the PowerBook. See if your problems persist. If they go away, it's the extra RAM causing the problem. Get it replaced / get a refund and get one from somewhere else. Where did you get the RAM?

stotan · Nov 8, 2003, 04:04 AM

i bought 512mb of micron memory from a local store and it works fine on my revb 12 inch powerbook with panther installed

i belive micron is also crucial memory (micron owns crucial)

doubtingtom · Nov 8, 2003, 04:30 AM

I've posted this here before, but I too had problems with my 12 1ghz and third party ram.

Apple isn't even the ballpark for what they charge for Ram so I got a third party 2100 512 chip. It caused problems, so I returned and it too caused problems (and both based Apple's Hardware Test).

Frustrated I re-read the manual (okay 'read' as in the first time, I never read manuals) to see that it specifically states the need for PC 2700 memory even though supposedly the 12 inche's architecture shouldn't see a benefit between 2100 and 2700. But since the price difference was nominal I took back my second 2100 chip and got a 2700 chip.

Now it could have been I got two bad 2100 chips and just go lucky on the 2700, but maybe the faster ram gives it a better chance of falling within Apple's tight specs (and they have had tighter specs since an OS 9 firmware update rendered a lot of people's 3rd party ram unusable in their systems).

Check your manual, and double check your RAM. Those of you who are getting 3rd party ram that works, is it 2700?

stotan · Nov 8, 2003, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by doubtingtom:
Those of you who are getting 3rd party ram that works, is it 2700?

nope, i just bought pc2100 and it worked fine

tomodachi · Nov 8, 2003, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by doubtingtom:
Frustrated I re-read the manual (okay 'read' as in the first time, I never read manuals) to see that it specifically states the need for PC 2700 memory even though supposedly the 12 inche's architecture shouldn't see a benefit between 2100 and 2700.

I believe the word on that is that what's in the manual is a typo and that PC2100 is indeed the specified RAM for the 12". Of course, using a PC2700 shouldn't hurt, but it probably won't help either.

wahstar · Nov 8, 2003, 10:29 AM

I'll try taking it apart tonight. I got it at my Apple Reseller in Melbourne. It's specs are below if anyone has had problems with similar let me know. My Ram is DIMM1/J31:

Size: 512 MB
Type: DDR SDRAM
Speed: PC2700U-25330

wahstar · Nov 8, 2003, 11:34 AM

tomodachi I can't thank you enough. I thought this was all beyond me and was beginning to feel overwhelmed. I've spent hours trawling the net for possible problems. Just removed RAM and bingo, 1st successful wake. True test will come in the morning but your advice was so straight forward, thanks.

shabbasuraj · Nov 8, 2003, 11:42 AM

anyone try dane-elec ram...?

i have had their ram in another machine and it worked fine, and now I am contemplating purchasing a stick for my RevA 12"...

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...tby=14&order=1

tomodachi · Nov 12, 2003, 12:11 AM

Hi everyone. I got my Crucial RAM in the mail today. I'm happy to say that so far, it looks like it's solved my problems. I've tried letting the PB go to sleep, closing the lid, sleep through Apple menu, etc., multiple times, and so far no freezing/kernel panics. I'll continue monitoring for the next few days and report back with the final answer ;-)

iMOTOR · Nov 12, 2003, 01:00 AM

I bought a centon 512mb pc2700 stick at circuit city for $99. Absolutely no problem, I'm not using panther yet though.

hardcat1970 · Nov 12, 2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by tomodachi:
Hi everyone. I got my Crucial RAM in the mail today. I'm happy to say that so far, it looks like it's solved my problems. I've tried letting the PB go to sleep, closing the lid, sleep through Apple menu, etc., multiple times, and so far no freezing/kernel panics. I'll continue monitoring for the next few days and report back with the final answer ;-)

I always use transintl's ram but after i heard so many stories about the ram and the new powerbook, i'll go for the crucial ram.

It works as advertised. I wish they have 1gb ram on their site, but right now it seems that they only have 512 mb ram for sale.

One unrelated question though, crucial charges sales tax on my order, i have no idea why, anyone?

tomodachi · Nov 12, 2003, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by hardcat1970:
One unrelated question though, crucial charges sales tax on my order, i have no idea why, anyone?

Uhh, maybe cuz you live in the same state as where Crucial is located?

In terms of TransIntl., I know they're a good vendor. They're just having a hard time coping with the stringency associated with the new powerbooks and Panther's memory requirements.

On a somewhat related note, has anyone's troubles been ameliorated with the 10.3.1 update? I can't check now that my PB is already equipped with Crucial RAM (who knows, it may be that the update played a bigger role in fixing my situation).

Guy Kuo · Nov 12, 2003, 03:10 AM

Tomodachi, that's good news. A flakey computer is worse than no computer.

I still have the bad OWC chip and the new 1.31 update is installed, but I don't think I'm going to risk putting the OWC chip back in. One of the crashes completely corrupted my internal hard drive. I'm not going to repeat that experience if I don't have to. OWC is currently telling me I'm facing a 15% restock. It's within their policy, but I've pointed out the RAM was the one recommended by their web site for the PB 12 inch 1 GHz. I'll report on their response as they decide whether or not to look like a responsible dealer or a non-responsive one. Praise or condemnation, it's their choice.

tomodachi · Nov 12, 2003, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by iMOTOR:
I bought a centon 512mb pc2700 stick at circuit city for $99. Absolutely no problem, I'm not using panther yet though.

If you're planning to upgrade, then I suggest you do so sooner than later to make sure the memory will work, as many people are facing this problem AFTER upgrading to Panther. It seems like Panther is much more picky about the quality of RAM.

laserjock · Nov 12, 2003, 02:24 PM

I bought 2x512 sticks from TransIntl. They didn't work - I had kernal panics, too. Then, I read the forums, assumed bad memory and got them to send some new sticks to me. The second ones did the trick. I know it's a pain, but just ask to switch again...

Guy Kuo · Nov 12, 2003, 06:45 PM

TransIntl accepted the RAM return without a problem.

OWC insists on their 15% restocking despite knowing their own website recommended the incompatible RAM.

Which company do you think gets my recommendation in the future?

deviousgelatin · Nov 12, 2003, 07:30 PM

I had the same problem with the cheap generic stuff they put in at MacMall (see my post "The MacMall Nightmare continues...") for further details.

I'm not sure about the 12", but Apple specifies PC2700 for the 15" 1.25ghz model. When MacMall put in the PC2100 I had the same problems you did - constant crashes & kernel panics. I'd check with Apple, and then insist that they send you 2700 - preferably from a reputable vendor (i.e. Kingston or Viking). It cleared up ALL of my problems.

Podolsky · Nov 12, 2003, 09:17 PM

For those of you returning ram - how do you know for sure it is a ram issue? Has anyone found the hardware test to fail the ram? I have a 512 owc in my 17" and in 3 weeks I have had 2 -3 dead on wake from sleep events. Is this my ram? How can I tell for sure? I will return it and buy from Apple but I would like to know for sure. It shouldn't be necessary to buy all ram from Apple and I have even heard for apple ram failing. But what the tests? What good are they? What about techtools ram test???

tomodachi · Nov 12, 2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Podolsky:
For those of you returning ram - how do you know for sure it is a ram issue? Has anyone found the hardware test to fail the ram? I have a 512 owc in my 17" and in 3 weeks I have had 2 -3 dead on wake from sleep events. Is this my ram? How can I tell for sure? I will return it and buy from Apple but I would like to know for sure. It shouldn't be necessary to buy all ram from Apple and I have even heard for apple ram failing. But what the tests? What good are they? What about techtools ram test???

Hey, no offense dude, but have you read through this thread??

Take the extra RAM out, use it for a while, see if the problems persist. If not, put the RAM back in, see if the problems come back. If they do, it's the RAM.

Second, as several people have mentioned, there are 3rd party RAM that seem to be fine, Kingston and Crucial being two of them.

As for the test.. I read somewhere (I think in Apple Discussion Forums) that the Apple HW Test leaves out one crucial test for RAM.. hence, these cases where RAM would pass the test but still cause problems. In a nutshell, yeah, in these cases the Apple HW Test is useless. I don't know about TechTool as I don't have it. I've heard that there's a freeware RAM test software that would detect such defects, but unfortunately it runs only on OS9

fraeone · Nov 12, 2003, 11:04 PM

It sounds to me like OWC and Transintl got themselves into a bad batch of chips.

For what it's worth I've ordered Crucial for years and never had a problem--and their website states that they provide RAM for Apple, so I've always felt safe buying from them.

The other plus is that Crucial is an American company that as far as I know manufactures all their ram in Idaho. Always good to support local (at least for as Americans), quality businesses.

I also found a coupon code for 5% off: BBUSERGROUP

Enjoy

iMOTOR · Nov 13, 2003, 04:18 AM

Can someone explain why ram that works perfectly on jaguar would crash panther? Methinks if the ram was bad or conflicted with your hardware it wouldn't work period.

Podolsky · Nov 13, 2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by tomodachi:
Hey, no offense dude, but have you read through this thread??

Take the extra RAM out, use it for a while, see if the problems persist. If not, put the RAM back in, see if the problems come back. If they do, it's the RAM.

Second, as several people have mentioned, there are 3rd party RAM that seem to be fine, Kingston and Crucial being two of them.

As for the test.. I read somewhere (I think in Apple Discussion Forums) that the Apple HW Test leaves out one crucial test for RAM.. hence, these cases where RAM would pass the test but still cause problems. In a nutshell, yeah, in these cases the Apple HW Test is useless. I don't know about TechTool as I don't have it. I've heard that there's a freeware RAM test software that would detect such defects, but unfortunately it runs only on OS9

Hey no offence dude, but did you read my post??

I have only had 2-3 wake from sleep events that make me suspect my ram. this is out of several weeks of use. I haven't had an event in days. So, pulling out my ram won't shed any light on my problem it will only reduce my ram by .5. For all I know it is the Apple ram. This is why I asked about the diagonostic tests. My problem is way to random and intermittent to have pulling the ram of any use. Yes, I read the thread.

tomodachi · Nov 16, 2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Podolsky:
Hey no offence dude, but did you read my post??

Yeah, I read your post. You asked US how WE know it's the RAM. I explained that. Nothing more, nothing less. And if you don't have the patience to spend a couple of days or maybe even more than a week without the extra RAM, then I just guess you don't have a way to find out for sure. Tough luck.

To get back on track: I've spent the past several days without a single lockup or a kernel panic. I belive I can safely say now that the Crucial RAM works. Hooray!

tomodachi · Nov 16, 2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by iMOTOR:
Can someone explain why ram that works perfectly on jaguar would crash panther? Methinks if the ram was bad or conflicted with your hardware it wouldn't work period.

Well, as long as lockups and kernel panics relate to software (i.e., the OS), I think it's totally possible. Look at the FireWire HDD issue...it seems to be firmware related (firmware of the HDD, that is) and yet it causes problems only on Panther and not Jaguar.

A similar thing happened a couple of years ago, although it was related to a firmware upgrade for Macs (and not the OS). RAM that was working fine suddenly stopped working after a firmware update. Lot of memory vendors swapped RAM chips then, IIRC.

Guy Kuo · Nov 16, 2003, 09:57 PM

Mostly likely, the new OS is programming the system memory controller differently. Apple has done that in the past. The new settings may access the RAM more rapidly than the prior program. This isn't confirmed, but merely one way in which system software can push once usable, but marginal, RAM out of usability.

One sad thing to keep in mind is that the hardware test supplied by Apple on CD-ROM won't necessarily detect a problematic RAM module.

I had good experience with OWC memory in the past, but this time around, OWC persuaded me to refer less business their way.

Crucial seems to be an all around good bet for third party memory on the very finicky September 03 PB Aluminums 12, 15, and 17.

evadah · Nov 17, 2003, 04:29 PM

I to have had the memory problem except it is with 10.2.8. I used a Kingston 512mb chip, and I started to experience kernel panics, and application failures.

slider · Nov 18, 2003, 02:22 AM

Just as an update. I was the one with the 15" PowerBook with the intermittent sleep issues. Anyways I order and installed the crucial ram and all those problems had gone away, just like that. Thanks for the thread. Don't know how I missed this issue in other 15" threads.