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shifuimam · Feb 7, 2013, 11:51 AM

I mentioned this near the end of the Huddler fiasco as we were migrating back to vB.

Could we get a Classic Mac subforum? Nothing fancy - just a place to post about the Classic Mac OS and all the hardware it runs on, from 68k up through the last G4s that supported OS 9.

I know that 68kmla.org is a good resource for this, and a number of users here are active over there. That said, there are people here who don't post there, so we might get some use out of it.

Thoughts?

finboy · Feb 7, 2013, 12:53 PM

I think it's a good idea. We could have stuff about older OS in there too, and emulators. Lots of interest in that stuff these days.

FYI Apple still hosts a lot of stuff online here:
http://www.info.apple.com/support/ol...twarelist.html

is not · 02:37 PM

I want a Classic subforum

shifuimam · Feb 9, 2013, 08:09 PM

Well snap, let's make this happen!

Can an admin weigh in?

besson3c · Feb 9, 2013, 09:26 PM

Just in case the new Classic subforum is missed, I'd also suggest links before every single post across all forum sections that direct visitors to the classic subforum.

shifuimam · Feb 11, 2013, 04:45 PM

We'll see what happens in the coming days/weeks.

Also wanted to add - I will be happy to volunteer to mod such a forum. Surprisingly I know how to be mature (aka not a doosh).

ShortcutToMoncton · Feb 13, 2013, 09:08 AM

Yay. More subforums is just what this place needs.

gooser · Feb 13, 2013, 10:35 AM

i still play around with os9 so i certainly wouldn't object to it.

shifuimam · Feb 13, 2013, 01:56 PM

I know we don't need more subforums, but there is a decent-sized base of classic Mac hobbyists. There's still stuff you can do with OS 9 and even older versions of the Mac OS. I'm interested in trying my hand at some app development for OS 9, too, just to see what I can do. I think a subforum would get some use here.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 13, 2013, 02:10 PM

I think all six of you might not generate enough traffic to warrant an entire sub-section on this forum.

shifuimam · Feb 13, 2013, 02:59 PM

Such a downer. Do I need to start advertising so that people who only read the tech part of the forums and never go to Feedback know that there's interest in this? Personally I think that'd be annoying as hell.

Mrjinglesusa · Feb 13, 2013, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Yay. More subforums is just what this place needs.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

I think all six of you might not generate enough traffic to warrant an entire sub-section on this forum.

Exactly. Tha VAST majority of Mac users have moved on to Mac OS X and in fact did so YEARS ago.

What's the point of adding yet another sub-forum for something that only a small handful of people have any interest in?

Seems to me such a Classic sub-forum would quickly turn into The Shifuimam Classic Blog where you ask questions that you end up answering yourself.

Veto.

shifuimam · Feb 13, 2013, 05:32 PM

Lol not really.

But thanks.

besson3c · Feb 13, 2013, 06:12 PM

If shifuimam thinks she can lure fresh blood here, what do we have to lose in creating the subforum?

andi*pandi · Feb 13, 2013, 08:24 PM

If it groups all the os9 questions and such into one more easily browseable area, I say why not.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 13, 2013, 08:29 PM

We've had fewer OS 9 questions in the past six months than I have toes on my right foot (and I ain't no ****in' nihilist).

P · Feb 14, 2013, 08:51 AM

I think we discussed it before. On the one hand, we don't really need more subforums (rather, we could use less), but on the other hand, none of the current forums are an obvious place to put such things. If we start to have lots of Classic Mac questions, I would support making one, but right now there is no need.

besson3c · Feb 14, 2013, 03:19 PM

Bring us fresh blood shifuimam, although before you do, make sure they understand who is boss around here, okay?

shifuimam · Feb 14, 2013, 06:34 PM

Well, if the general consensus is "f no", I doubt it'll happen. Figured it was worth a shot.

finboy · Feb 15, 2013, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by P

I think we discussed it before. On the one hand, we don't really need more subforums (rather, we could use less), but on the other hand, none of the current forums are an obvious place to put such things. If we start to have lots of Classic Mac questions, I would support making one, but right now there is no need.

Given how most people find forums to read (by Googling their topic or question), it's a fair shout to say that you won't get more traffic in Classic questions until there are more Classic questions posted, but there won't be more Classic questions posted until there's more traffic in them.

shifuimam · Feb 15, 2013, 11:47 AM

How meta!

Really, though - could we try it and see what happens, and if in six months it's a bust, we can move on?

gooser · Feb 15, 2013, 01:35 PM

well i'll start. today on the news side of things i see that adobe is offering photoshop 1.0.1 for a free download. does anyone know what's the highest operating system that will run this? i have 9.2.2.

Thorzdad · Feb 15, 2013, 01:45 PM

Good question. Pshop 1.0 was released for Mac OS 6.0.3. The first Power Mac-compatible version of Pshop was v.4. on OS 7.1.
I would bet that v.1 won't run on anything running OS 9. Hope I'm wrong, though.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 15, 2013, 02:51 PM

I thought they were offering the source code, not the application?

gooser · Feb 15, 2013, 07:36 PM

thanks. i misread it.

shifuimam · Feb 15, 2013, 08:22 PM

That being said, it's not hard to find Photoshop 1.

I'm personally pretty thankful that nearly every major software manufacturer, even the big ones like Adobe and Microsoft, don't care too much about the distribution of abandonware they long-ago stopped supporting.

If only EA would do the same...

gooser · Feb 16, 2013, 09:40 AM

i hope you're right shifuimam. i just bought (delivered yesterday) old versions of final cut and adobe creative suite off e-bay extremely cheap. $1 each. i have no idea if i'll ever use these things, no plans to even install them now as i currently don't have time to even play around with them, but they'll be in my cabinet if i ever feel like taking the plunge and i'll always keep around a few old imacs. and i'm still looking for more older software i don't need.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 16, 2013, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by finboy

Given how most people find forums to read (by Googling their topic or question), it's a fair shout to say that you won't get more traffic in Classic questions until there are more Classic questions posted, but there won't be more Classic questions posted until there's more traffic in them.

If I have a tech support question, I'll search using terms that describe my issue, not for something generic like "Mac Support Forum".
While this may not be true for the clueless newbie, I think it can be assumed as almost 100% given that people running into issues with Classic Macs these days are not going to be clueless newbies.

shifuimam · Feb 16, 2013, 01:55 PM

Gooser - check out Macintosh Garden. There's a ton of great stuff there.

shifuimam · Feb 16, 2013, 01:57 PM

I should add that part of why I'm interested in a subforum here is because we do have long-time members who are interested in classic/vintage Apple hardware as a hobby. Not all of those people are going to already be established members in the other big classic Mac communities (AppleFritter and 68kmla). Sometimes it's easier to get a response and get people interested in your question/topic when you're not a first time poster.

So there's that, too.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 16, 2013, 02:56 PM

And the lack of a Classic sub forum has been stopping these long-standing members from posting?

shifuimam · Feb 16, 2013, 03:24 PM

I swear to God, at this point you're just deliberately being ornery.

Your opinion has been stated. Move on.

reader50 · Feb 17, 2013, 02:00 AM

We'll be giving this a try. We're also looking into merging a few subforums with low traffic. More info after we've conspired a bit.

Ω · Feb 17, 2013, 05:24 AM

I have been keeping out of this but would like to see a classic forum. To me this is everything PPC and earlier.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 17, 2013, 05:30 AM

Would it be hardware or software-defined?

I.e., PPC and earlier (which would include machines running up to 10.5.8), or OS 9 and earlier?

Also, props to shif for re-introducing me to the word "ornery".

Ω · Feb 17, 2013, 06:21 AM

Ornery is why you will lose this argument.

Viva la PPC

shifuimam · Feb 17, 2013, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ω

I have been keeping out of this but would like to see a classic forum. To me this is everything PPC and earlier.

That's a good point. Leopard is now the fourth-oldest version of OS X, and a good chunk of PPC hardware can't run it well or at all. I'd say that Panther and Tiger are coming up on "vintage" status.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 17, 2013, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ω

Ornery is why you will lose this argument.

Viva la PPC

True as it may be, I'm no longer arguing. I asked a question.

besson3c · Feb 17, 2013, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

True as it may be, I'm no longer arguing. I asked a question.

Go ask your questions to somebody who gives a damn

-b

Ω · Feb 17, 2013, 03:31 PM

I would say hardware because that is now starting to dictate the software you can use. Previously all things were universal binary, now that is not the case.

Also makes it an easy line in the sand.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 17, 2013, 04:00 PM

Well, if Classic runs essentially from 1984 until 2005, I dunno. Are software questions or hardware questions more likely? If it's the latter, making the cut at the intel transition makes sense. If the former, OS X is the natural cutoff.

ghporter · Feb 17, 2013, 04:26 PM

I think that the status quo is a good starting point. Getting back to vBulletin was crucial to getting our users back online with us. Now we need to figure out where to go from here, and that will take some serious ~~conspiring~~ behind-the-scenes discussion. Add a Classic forum? Move other forums around? Etc? Other?? I think this is a really good place to start, considering, as Spheric Harlot points out, Classic has a 20 year history (longer than any mainstream desktop operating system, if I am not too far off the mark).

shifuimam · Feb 17, 2013, 07:30 PM

Hardware and software sort of go hand-in-hand. On the hardware side, there are some unique things to deal with on PPC or 68k Macs.

A big part of software IMO is finding or making applications that let you use a vintage Mac in the modern world - projects like Classilla are great, but we need more of them!

Spheric Harlot · Feb 17, 2013, 07:38 PM

The question remains what defines a "vintage" Mac.

As far as I'm concerned, "vintage" means running OS 9 and earlier, but I've been around Macs for 25 years (holy shit).

Anything that runs OS X is new-fangled, and the problems people might have with anything earlier are likely to be software-related, not hardware-related. As in your examples.

If you want a forum related to PPC-era hardware, I'd think that is either actually more suited to the hardware hacking forum, though there's no reason I can see that a PowerMac G4 or G5 shouldn't be discussed in the "desktops" forum.

Perhaps an "Anything Beige" forum?

besson3c · Feb 17, 2013, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

The question remains what defines a "vintage" Mac.

As far as I'm concerned, "vintage" means running OS 9 and earlier, but I've been around Macs for 25 years (holy shit).

Anything that runs OS X is new-fangled, and the problems people might have with anything earlier are likely to be software-related, not hardware-related. As in your examples.

If you want a forum related to PPC-era hardware, I'd think that is either actually more suited to the hardware hacking forum, though there's no reason I can see that a PowerMac G4 or G5 shouldn't be discussed in the "desktops" forum.

Perhaps an "Anything Beige" forum?

Why are you taking such an interest in this now if you are convinced that only six people will be interested?

Spheric Harlot · Feb 17, 2013, 08:56 PM

Because gooser and Ω have crawled out of the woodwork, which intrigues me, as it might not just be a forum for shif to monologue about modding clamshell iBooks.

And because reader50 has stated that this will probably be happening.

At the same time, I was trying to figure out whether what she really wants is a forum suitable for modding clamshell iBooks, or one for users of vintage macs and their operating systems (which it now sounds like to me).

Why do you care if I change my mind or try to offer constructive assistance?

besson3c · Feb 17, 2013, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Because gooser and Ω have crawled out of the woodwork, which intrigues me, as it might not just be a forum for shif to monologue about modding clamshell iBooks.

And because reader50 has stated that this will probably be happening.

At the same time, I was trying to figure out whether what she really wants is a forum suitable for modding clamshell iBooks, or one for users of vintage macs and their operating systems (which it now sounds like to me).

Why do you care if I change my mind or try to offer constructive assistance?

I'm just noticing your softened tone, and wondering how this came about. You were a little ornery and confrontational prior.

shifuimam · Feb 17, 2013, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Because gooser and Ω have crawled out of the woodwork, which intrigues me, as it might not just be a forum for shif to monologue about modding clamshell iBooks.

And because reader50 has stated that this will probably be happening.

At the same time, I was trying to figure out whether what she really wants is a forum suitable for modding clamshell iBooks, or one for users of vintage macs and their operating systems (which it now sounds like to me).

Why do you care if I change my mind or try to offer constructive assistance?

Are you f*cking kidding me?

(a) I moved the entire clamshell modding project off of MacNN entirely and had the thread locked at my request in 2007. It's been more than five years. Move on already.

(b) There is a very alive and kicking vintage Mac enthusiast world out there. I am not the only one. A single one of my Apple-branded machines is hacked. The rest of them are stock or have normal hardware upgrades in them.

(c) My request for a Classic forum is not so that I can monologue about the shit I do with vintage hardware. That's what my personal blog is for. The suggestion was based on the idea that members here might be interested in a place where they can talk about vintage and classic Mac stuff, without having to shuffle off to a different website.

Per my original request - your opinion has been stated. Please leave this discussion to people who legitimately interested in it.

Ω · Feb 18, 2013, 02:13 AM

My rationale for PPC being classic is that it no longer supported and as the years go by it is going to get harder and harder to find solutions to deal with current day. It will also mean that there is a wider scope and more chance of being visited by people.

Also 2005 is eight years ago. Even a newish G5 is still old.

besson3c · Feb 18, 2013, 02:33 AM

Can I ask you guys without any mockery intended what interests you about trying to put old Macs to use?

I can sort of understand the interest in doing this with Linux, since if you can find a Linux variant that supports your hardware you can do some genuinely useful things with the PC, but is the same true for old Mac gear? I guess I can kind of see this with OS X 10.3 - 10.5 or so, maybe 10.2 as well, but OS 9?