[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I'm guessing you didn't read the link(?)

I looked at it. They used example like blackmail where its pay the money or suffer the consequences. I don't see what the alternative to deportation is. Much like if you're convicted of something and are going to jail. What's the other option, suicide?

Edit: Ah, I don't read so good.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Case in point: none of that happens across the border on the other side. If you're in Mexico illegally and they find out, you're TOAST.

That is not a valid argument. If they handed out free pedicures to all illegal immigrants would you be pushing to implement that here?

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Are illegals now Foreign Agents?

Sure.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

It's not an option. Option implies there is a choice, and in the first situation there is none.

The Hobson's Choice info notwithstanding, fine. Call it what you want. Replace 'option' with 'outcome'. Result is the same.

It depends on why they came here. I'd have to think there would be some that felt that a lone future in the US is better than being together in the country they just tried desperately (and possibly risked their lives) to escape.

Perhaps. I'd bet those numbers would be pretty darn small, both because families generally don't want to break themselves apart, and because the incentive to even have the anchor baby in the first place would be gone.

And even of the ones who did choose that, I'd bet most would only make that choice if they left baby in the care of legal family members. And I'd also bet that the cost of caring for the remaining orphans would be dwarfed by the cost of a constitutional amendment.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That is not a valid argument. If they handed out free pedicures to all illegal immigrants would you be pushing to implement that here?

Reciprocity? Sure, that's a good start. That's probably not where we want to be, ultimately, but all human justice begins with reciprocity. We'll start there and work our way up.

Thankfully they don't enslave people who are illegally within their border, although we could certainly make the argument that the US does to a certain extent.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

The Hobson's Choice info notwithstanding, fine. Call it what you want. Replace 'option' with 'outcome'. Result is the same.

Should be. Maybe. Except I'd like to not be in a position where we're deporting American citizens, no matter what their age.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Perhaps. I'd bet those numbers would be pretty darn small, both because families generally don't want to break themselves apart, and because the incentive to even have the anchor baby in the first place would be gone.

And even of the ones who did choose that, I'd bet most would only make that choice if they left baby in the care of legal family members. And I'd also bet that the cost of caring for the remaining orphans would be dwarfed by the cost of a constitutional amendment.

I'd be curious what the cost really would be. Unless it was staggering, I don't see why someone would object to doing what's right.

If you don't care about deporting illegals then I think you need to support other immigration reform. It's the status quo which I object to most strongly.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Reciprocity? Sure, that's a good start. That's probably not where we want to be, ultimately, but all human justice begins with reciprocity. We'll start there and work our way up.

Human justice? Care to be more melodramatic?

[osiris]

You want immigration reform - make it free. It cost me thousands to legally allow my wife to stay in this country. I can only imagine a struggling family with nothing but their jeans... we got different strokes... sorry...

But make the immigration process palatable, instead of the bank draining nazi fun fest it is. When my grandparents came here, they had nothing but were given the opportunity to build a better life - the American Dream.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by osiris 

You want immigration reform - make it free. It cost me thousands to legally allow my wife to stay in this country. I can only imagine a struggling family with nothing but their jeans... we got different strokes... sorry...

But make the immigration process palatable, instead of the bank draining nazi fun fest it is. When my grandparents came here, they had nothing but were given the opportunity to build a better life - the American Dream.

That is an interesting point. The process is indeed very expensive, and this is excluding immigration lawyers which some people may need in more complex situations.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Should be. Maybe. Except I'd like to not be in a position where we're deporting American citizens, no matter what their age.

We'd be deporting the same person regardless - same result. So to me, the only reason to amend the constitution seems to be so you can somehow feel better about it.

I'd be curious what the cost really would be. Unless it was staggering, I don't see why someone would object to doing what's right.

I guess that depends on how you define 'what's right'. Sounds to me like 'what's right' means 'so we can feel better about the same action'.

If you don't care about deporting illegals then I think you need to support other immigration reform. It's the status quo which I object to most strongly.

Quite honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about it. You seem conflicted too (pointing out that illegals are humans with feelings...). I think that's a natural and human response to this issue - because it's a difficult issue and every answer is going to affect lives. I agree that the status quo is untenable, and we basically need to sh*t or get off the pot with regard to immigration policy (and obviously neither of those options (!) is politically expedient). I'm just saying that if someone is on the side of deporting illegals and needs a constitutional amendment so they can sleep at night, then I think their motives are questionable.

I can't say I'm against the option of deporting all illegals - even those with anchor babies. I'm just saying that if that's the case, I could live with the approach I've described just as easily as what the GOP is proposing - because the end result is the same.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That is an interesting point. The process is indeed very expensive, and this is excluding immigration lawyers which some people may need in more complex situations.

Lawyers are expensive - I had to hire someone. The first one I interviewed wanted more than $2500.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

We'd be deporting the same person regardless - same result. So to me, the only reason to amend the constitution seems to be so you can somehow feel better about it.

So, a system that's set-up where we're deporting American citizens makes sense? Should I feel bad about feeling better when laws make sense?

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I guess that depends on how you define 'what's right'. Sounds to me like 'what's right' means 'so we can feel better about the same action'.

Then you're not listening.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Quite honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about it. You seem conflicted too (pointing out that illegals are humans with feelings...). I think that's a natural and human response to this issue - because it's a difficult issue and every answer is going to affect lives. I agree that the status quo is untenable, and we basically need to sh*t or get off the pot with regard to immigration policy (and obviously neither of those options (!) is politically expedient). I'm just saying that if someone is on the side of deporting illegals and needs a constitutional amendment so they can sleep at night, then I think their motives are questionable.

I'm not that conflicted. They're illegal, they don't deserve to be here, get them out. If we need them, and they need us, then let's set-up a system that addresses that legally. What currently exists is a joke and a tragedy.

[OAW]

Let's keep it real here ....

1. There are already over 12 million illegal immigrants in the US. The government doesn't even know where they all are so deporting them all is a fool's notion. Even if they did, the economic impact of losing that many people would be devastating. Ain't gonna happen.

2. The GOP doesn't have a chance in hell of successfully amending the Constitution to change "citizenship by birthright". This is political pandering to its conservative base in an election cycle ... pure and simple. Ain't gonna happen.

3. "Securing the border" ... the mantra of the right will require militarizing the entire US - Mexican border. That would require massive resources which are in short supply with two wars going on and huge budget deficits. On top of that there is the US - Canadian border, as well as the entire eastern and western seaboards where people can get into the country. This is simply something that sounds good on paper but is wholly impractical to implement in a free society. Ain't gonna happen.

Anti-immigrant sentiment has typically gone up during tough economic times throughout the history of this country. The GOP is simply pandering to that in order to boost its fortunes during the election season. It's incredibly short-sighted IMO ... and will eventually come back to bite them in the a*s.

In any event, a sensible solution to this would be to establish a long-term Guest Worker Program:

A. Employers could hire a documented guest worker, but would be required to pay at least the minimum wage. Those employers that don't follow the rules should be thrown in jail. Not fined. Jail.

B. An illegal immigrant that does not register with the Guest Worker program (where the government can finally learn of and track their whereabouts) during a reasonable amnesty window (yeah I said it) should be deported if they are ever arrested and their legal status has been lawfully determined. No long drawn out process with umpteen hearings. One hearing ... family notification ... then it's time to go.

C. Anyone registered with the Guest Worker program that has not found employment within 1 year is subject to expedited deportation. No long drawn out process with umpteen hearings. Unless they can show they live with a family member who is employed.

D. Anyone registered with the Guest Worker program is not eligible for public assistance beyond medical treatment.

E. Anyone registered with the Guest Worker program may apply for citizenship if they have not already done so. However, they must go to the back of the line if they were here illegally and took advantage of the amnesty window.

This approach would lead to the problem taking care of itself because first and foremost it would put employers in serious criminal jeopardy if they continue to hire illegal immigrants and pay them under the table. That right there is the root of the problem. If there aren't enough jobs at standard wages then there is no incentive for people to come (or stay) illegally.

OAW

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

So, a system that's set-up where we're deporting American citizens makes sense? Should I feel bad about feeling better when laws make sense?

It makes as much sense as amending the constitution over a wedge issue.

We would not be deporting American citizens. We'd be deporting their parents. I don't see how that makes less sense than putting an asterisk on the 14th Amendment.

Then you're not listening.

No, I'm pretty sure I am. I'm just coming to different conclusions.

I'm not that conflicted. They're illegal, they don't deserve to be here, get them out. If we need them, and they need us, then let's set-up a system that addresses that legally. What currently exists is a joke and a tragedy.

Fair enough, and as I said, I agree the status quo is messed up and creates all the wrong incentives.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Let's keep it real here ....

1. There are already over 12 million illegal immigrants in the US. The government doesn't even know where they all are so deporting them all is a fool's notion. Even if they did, the economic impact of losing that many people would be devastating. Ain't gonna happen.

2. The GOP doesn't have a chance in hell of successfully amending the Constitution to change "citizenship by birthright". This is political pandering to its conservative base in an election cycle ... pure and simple. Ain't gonna happen.

3. "Securing the border" ... the mantra of the right will require militarizing the entire US - Mexican border. That would require massive resources which are in short supply with two wars going on and huge budget deficits. On top of that there is the US - Canadian border, as well as the entire eastern and western seaboards where people can get into the country. This is simply something that sounds good on paper but is wholly impractical to implement in a free society. Ain't gonna happen.

Anti-immigrant sentiment has typically gone up during tough economic times throughout the history of this country. The GOP is simply pandering to that in order to boost its fortunes during the election season. It's incredibly short-sighted IMO ... and will eventually come back to bite them in the a*s.

In any event, a sensible solution to this would be to establish a long-term Guest Worker Program:

A. Employers could hire a documented guest worker, but would be required to pay at least the minimum wage. Those employers that don't follow the rules should be thrown in jail. Not fined. Jail.

B. An illegal immigrant that does not register with the Guest Worker program (where the government can finally learn of and track their whereabouts) during a reasonable amnesty window (yeah I said it) should be deported if they are ever arrested and their legal status has been lawfully determined. No long drawn out process with umpteen hearings. One hearing ... family notification ... then it's time to go.

C. Anyone registered with the Guest Worker program that has not found employment within 1 year is subject to expedited deportation. No long drawn out process with umpteen hearings. Unless they can show they live with a family member who is employed.

D. Anyone registered with the Guest Worker program is not eligible for public assistance beyond medical treatment.

E. Anyone registered with the Guest Worker program may apply for citizenship if they have not already done so. However, they must go to the back of the line if they were here illegally and took advantage of the amnesty window.

This approach would lead to the problem taking care of itself because first and foremost it would put employers in serious criminal jeopardy if they continue to hire illegal immigrants and pay them under the table. That right there is the root of the problem. If there aren't enough jobs at standard wages then there is no incentive for people to come (or stay) illegally.

OAW

So I don't know that anyone has the political cojones to implement this approach, but at least it addresses the heart of the issue. The 'anchor baby' ploy is just trying to create a wedge. I've heard numbers that there are 300,000 to 400,000 'anchor babies' in the US. Compare that to the total number of illegal immigrants, estimated by the ultimate source of truth Wikipedia to be somewhere between 7 and 20 million (quite a range!). Hopefully that gives some scale to where the real issues are.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Perhaps after the elections they can close the damn borders?

The borders are already controlled. People make it thru in spite of that fact. "Closing the border" is an empty slogan.

Then throw out the law breakers and repeat invaders.

If you're serious about enforcing the law, why not jail them?

Those who have come here illegally should never get the chance to be US citizens.

Guess what: they already had no chance to become citizens. The citizenship standards effectively block poor Mexicans. They ignore the system because they'll never be approved anyways.

Illegals who protest openly should be deported ASAP, and those funding the protests or tampering in US policies need to have their members rounded up and their property seized.

Shouldn't all illegals be deported ASAP? And seizing the property of American citizens because of their political beliefs is simply retarded.

Same for CAIR.

Yes, of course, no one should be allowed to defend themselves from persecution, especially Muslims.

[hyteckit]

How to close the borders?

1. Fence out every inch of the border and border patrol every mile.
2. Close out the beaches and shorelines.
3. Kill all flights to the US by non-US citizens

Half of all illegals come here on a Visa or as a tourist. Overstaying their work visa or student visa. Whatcha going do?

Kill off tourism and work/student Visas?


Closing the borders. Haha... dumb.

[TheoCryst]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Let's keep it real here ....

[...Long-ass snip...]

OAW

Actually, that's one of the best proposals I've ever heard for dealing with the immigration issue. Like CreepDogg said, it'll never actually get implemented, but it's a very clever idea. Because let's face it, there's no way we can round up all 12 million illegals in the country. It's crucial that we provide a carrot to draw them out of the woodwork and get them on track to become legal. Save the stick for those who knowingly employ illegal immigrants.

[finboy]

Without tougher border enforcement, guest worker programs won't work either, because there isn't enough of a disincentive to just stay undocumented.

Before any type of guest worker program would work, we'd have to radically change the way it's all being done now. Even then, we'd have to start it up with new entrants, or folks who go home and come back.

As for the argument that "we can't even know who's here illegally now": we can make a good start by taking some buses down to Home Depot and loading them on. Hell, there's a 3/4 mile stretch of MAIN STREET in my small Texas town where HUNDREDS of day workers stand around every morning for hours. Sometimes all day. We could get at least ONE good roundup out of it.

Remember, too, that INTERMITTENT reinforcement always works much better than CONSTANT reinforcement. Jail terms for parents of anchor babies -- wouldn't take many, and word would get out. Send the babies back to Mexico to be with family until they could come here on their own power. Same with employers. Catch someone hiring illegals, knowingly or otherwise, and shut them down. Padlock the door. Turn enforcement over to the IRS -- they seem to know how to do that kind of thing, and thanks to Obamacare there are 16k new agents.

I really don't understand how otherwise intelligent people have trouble with the word "illegal."

And again, for those of you guys who DON'T have illegals standing on the corners where you live every day ... your time is coming, I'd bet.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The borders are already controlled. People make it thru in spite of that fact. "Closing the border" is an empty slogan.

Saying you can't is the empty slogan. Why not actually TRY IT FIRST? Offending lawbreakers is fine with me. can we harass them enough to leave? It's not like those who come here illegally would make good citizens anyway.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Saying you can't is the empty slogan. Why not actually TRY IT FIRST? Offending lawbreakers is fine with me. can we harass them enough to leave? It's not like those who come here illegally would make good citizens anyway.

I know a Nepalese man who is here illegally earning money by painting houses to send back to his terminally-ill daughter.

I don't think a person with such a blinders-on black-and-white mindset like you is a good citizen either. It's easy to label every illegal immigrant as a deviant criminal, but in reality they are humans, humans that yearn for our American lives yet are disallowed to do so legally.

If I were in their position I'd do the exact same thing.

[hyteckit]

The Chinese were denied US citizenship until the Magnuson Act of 1943.

Lots of illegal Chinese born in the US.

[hyteckit]

During the earlier part of the 18th century, the Chinese were welcome because their labor was needed. However, when the economy is bad, White people blame it on the Chinese for low wages.

Then White folks did something about it.

1. Ban immigration from China.
2. Ban Chinese from marrying White people.
3. Denied US citizenship to the Chinese already living in the US.

AmericanHeritage.com / How Illegal Immigration Was Born


When economy is bad, blame it on the minorities.

It's the Chinese fault.
It's the Blacks fault.
It's the Mexican's fault.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I know a Nepalese man who is here illegally earning money by painting houses to send back to his terminally-ill daughter.

.

I know lots of folks who are here legally sending money back home. It took them lots of time and money to do it.

AND I don't think folks on the right are labeling every immigrant as a deviant criminal. The immigrants themselves are criminals by just being here in the first place.

Don't believe me? Go to Mexico without permission, see what happens. They understand what "illegal immigrant" means on THAT side of the border.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I know a Nepalese man who is here illegally earning money by painting houses to send back to his terminally-ill daughter

This man does not have the time to jump through red tape before his daughter dies. Still think he is a criminal that should be deported?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by finboy 

AND I don't think folks on the right are labeling every immigrant as a deviant criminal. The immigrants themselves are criminals by just being here in the first place.

If their only crime is want of a better life then they are not criminals. Don't waste your time trying to convince me they are.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

During the earlier part of the 18th century, the Chinese were welcome because their labor was needed. However, when the economy is bad, White people blame it on the Chinese for low wages.

Then White folks did something about it.

1. Ban immigration from China.
2. Ban Chinese from marrying White people.
3. Denied US citizenship to the Chinese already living in the US.

AmericanHeritage.com / How Illegal Immigration Was Born


When economy is bad, blame it on the minorities.

It's the Chinese fault.
It's the Blacks fault.
It's the Mexican's fault.

You neglected to include the ban that preceded them all.
During The Great Potato Famine (1845-1852)

[finboy]

Originally Posted by sek929 

If their only crime is want of a better life then they are not criminals. Don't waste your time trying to convince me they are.

Good news! I don't HAVE to convince you. Being undocumented IS a crime, whether you believe it is or not. Better life, blah blah blah. It's just not.up.to.you.

This just in: the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow. Film at 11.

[brassplayersrock²]

“What part of illegal do you not understand?"

[sek929]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Good news! I don't HAVE to convince you. Being undocumented IS a crime.

Really? Wow, you just blew my goddamn mind!

I had no idea a person breaking any law is technically a criminal.

Thank you so much for your insight.

In my librul dem hippy mind, the Nepalese man I mentioned earlier is the polar opposite of a criminal, despite what the law says...I know, hard to understand.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by sek929 

l, but in reality they are humans, humans that yearn for our American lives yet are disallowed to do so legally.

In your example, the person isn't disallowed to do so legally- they just didn't BOTHER to do so legally. Sob stories don't make that any more or less true. I feel more for the American citizen worker who might have been able to paint houses to pay to help their terminally ill children (see, anyone of any nationality can have a sob-story!) if not for the job having been turned into crap by people here willing to do it for peanuts illegally.

[BadKosh]

If laws weren't important there wouldn't be any. Great Idea. If I want your stuff all I gotta do is gun you all down and take it!

[sek929]

Yep, since I think breaking one law isn't a big deal then let's throw all of them out the window, that's not an exaggeration at all.

What about laws in other countries we consider unjust? Do you think, say, stoning someone to death for adultery is fine since it's a law somewhere? Or are we able to see unfair laws at face value?

[BadKosh]

But then we get into the "What do I consider to be unjust", "What is unjust" etc. Who cares? Lets just ignore all the laws.

[BadKosh]

........or............ Are laws necessary or required?

Why might laws be important?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Yeah, because a nation having immigration laws is just like stoning people to death.

Blatant hyperbole is just as ineffective as anecdotal sob stories.

[BadKosh]

So I take it laws are useful? So why aren't the Feds enforcing the laws? Against their oath of office? No, that can't be it.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Yeah, because a nation having immigration laws is just like stoning people to death.

Blatant hyperbole is just as ineffective as anecdotal sob stories.

I was asking a question there chief, a question both of you failed to answer.

If we were living in the 50s, and you were black, would you obey the law of not drinking from a 'white only' water fountain or would you decide for yourself the validity of the law?

Is it the job of a citizen to blindly obey authority without question? Maybe you guys are comfortable labeling all illegal immigrant as criminals, must be a good way to dehumanize others without feeling bad.

Deporting the Nepalese man is sentencing his daughter to death. I assume you are ok with that since it's more important to obey laws without question.

He was brought here by a rich family I've done lots of work for. They visited Nepal and he was their sherpa. When they heard his story they flew him back to the US and started giving him work, at well above the minimum wage.

All in all I guess they're a bunch of criminals, eh? Damn bastards helping out a fellow human without any regard for pointless laws.

I don't know why I even bother. I respect you, CRASH, but we have very different views of the world...but BadKosh would like to see anyone who has smoked a joint put in jail so I give less than one sh!t about his twisted view of the world.

[The Final Dakar]

I think the better metaphor is a parent stealing a loaf of bread to feed their starving family. Which I think most of rational people can sympathize with.

But what happens when it goes from 1 to 10 to 1,000 to 10,000? What happens if all those "thefts" start to concentrate into regions?

I can see why people sympathize with the plight of some illegals. But I can not abide by thinking the current state of things as acceptable.

[sek929]

Not at all, but the current state of the law regarding immigration is ludicrous. I don't expose to have the answers, but when I hear something like "Just close down our borders, problem solved" from the likes of B4dK0$h, it makes my brain hurt.

The same ultra-simplistic thinking gave us "Just say no" and the War on Drugs. Thinking you can win against human nature is foolish. We can spend a trillion dollars erecting a 20-foot tall titanium fence around our country and illegals would still get in. It's a losing game and it makes me wonder if simply annexing Mexico is the only real solution.

Kick out all their corrupt leaders (some would say among the most corrupt in the world) and form some new states.

Actually, scratch that, without cheap Mexican labor to build our cars and such we'd actually have to pay more for our goods. It's best leave them to their own devices, continue to save trillions in labor, and demonize anyone would want to escape from that life. Problem "solved"

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Not at all, but the current state of the law regarding immigration is ludicrous. I don't expose to have the answers, but when I hear something like "Just close down our borders, problem solved" from the likes of B4dK0$h, it makes my brain hurt.

At the risk of incurring an infraction, isn't the mistake you made a little obvious here?

Originally Posted by sek929 

The same ultra-simplistic thinking gave us "Just say no" and the War on Drugs. Thinking you can win against human nature is foolish. We can spend a trillion dollars erecting a 20-foot tall titanium fence around our country and illegals would still get in. It's a losing game and it makes me wonder if simply annexing Mexico is the only real solution.

Yeah, I had the same thought in freakin' high school. But let's say we made Mexico another Puerto Rico. Could you imagine the sheer chaos (and likely outrage, racist or otherwise) when Mexicans realize they can move anywhere in the US?

Originally Posted by sek929 

Actually, scratch that, without cheap Mexican labor to build our cars and such we'd actually have to pay more for our goods. It's best leave them to their own devices, continue to save trillions in labor, and demonize anyone would want to escape from that life. Problem "solved"

Two issues with that:

A. In that situation it seems like we're all but exploiting the illegals, which I don't like the sound of.
B. So long as people have a legitimate claim that the action occurring is illegal, we deserve to continue to hear this crap. If you don't care enough to push some type of immigration reform to help them, don't pretend that you're really helping them by turning a blind-eye to what's going on.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by sek929 

when I hear something like "Just close down our borders, problem solved" from the likes of B4dK0$h, it makes my brain hurt.

Not to mentions that it is anti-American.

[hyteckit]

How to solve the drug problem.
Just destroy all the drugs and arrest the drug dealers. Problem solved.

How to solve homelessness and poverty.
Just give everyone food, clothing, and shelter. Problem solved.

How to win the Afghan War.
Just defeat the terrorist. Problem solved.

How to get out of a recession.
Just create jobs and increase consumer spending. Problem solved.

How to fix the BP oil leak.
Just close the opening where the oil is leaking. Problem solved.

How to end violent crime.
Just arrest all the violent criminals. Problem solved.



Damn. I never knew solving problems was this easy.

I wonder why Pres. Bush and the Republican Congress didn't solve this illegal immigration problem when they were in power. I mean, just close the borders. Problem solved.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Well how much of a "drain" illegal immigrants are on public resources is debatable. Contrary to popular belief in some circles, illegal immigrants pay sales and property taxes without question. And if they are working under forged papers they pay payroll taxes (i.e. Income, Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment).

OAW

One of the largest drains is in education. Too much money is spent on remedial and special education for students that don't understand English. California is a prime example of going from first to last in quality of education per dollar spent. I support the Republican agenda of English-only public schools.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

At the risk of incurring an infraction, isn't the mistake you made a little obvious here?

Calling someone else out for having an unattainable solution while not having one myself?

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Yeah, I had the same thought in freakin' high school. But let's say we made Mexico another Puerto Rico. Could you imagine the sheer chaos (and likely outrage, racist or otherwise) when Mexicans realize they can move anywhere in the US?

It would totally be a sh!tstorm from any conceivable angle, but what other choices do we really have? We have a workforce bound to the US, an economy reliant on the US, and yet we hold such a fear and hatred of letting these people into our country. So Jorge is good enough to build my GMC for pennies, but when he crosses a line to make more money he immediately becomes a criminal to be lumped in with the drug dealers and murderers? Is it better for the US to keep Mexico a third world country, fueling human and drug trafficking? Or would it be better to streamline the immigration process so the millions of people who are coming here anyways can actually do so legally?

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

B. So long as people have a legitimate claim that the action occurring is illegal, we deserve to continue to hear this crap. If you don't care enough to push some type of immigration reform to help them, don't pretend that you're really helping them by turning a blind-eye to what's going on.

Well I'll enact change with my vote, but besides that there isn't much I would care to do besides voicing my opinion. I did sign up for an Immigration petition via Atheists link in his sig, making it easier for same-sex spouses to be allowed in our country legally, but online petitions do not a revolution make.

When the 14th amendment was on the table there were plenty of elected officials heralding the end of our country. Mulatos and Black Irish will overwhelm our economy and bring us down from the inside!

Over 150 years later and the evil immigrants haven't destroyed the American way of life...but now, now they are actually going to do it!

I'll take a dangerous stance and side with what Hyteckit said earlier. Bad economy, blame the minorities and immigrants.

"Damn immigants, even when it was the bears I knew it was them!"
Moe the Bartender

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Calling someone else out for having an unattainable solution while not having one myself?

I was gonna go with reading his post and responding to it

Originally Posted by sek929 

Well I'll enact change with my vote, but besides that there isn't much I would care to do besides voicing my opinion. I did sign up for an Immigration petition via Atheists link in his sig, making it easier for same-sex spouses to be allowed in our country legally, but online petitions do not a revolution make.

That's fine. I'm just sick of people coming in here with the attitude of, hey, whatever.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I'm just sick of people coming in here with the attitude of, hey, whatever.

Meh.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I was gonna go with reading his post and responding to it

They are almost to ridiculous as to not be flame-bait, point taken.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That's fine. I'm just sick of people coming in here with the attitude of, hey, whatever.

I guess I'm sick of people trying to boil down incredibly complex situations into rhetoric-laden one-liners.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I guess I'm sick of people trying to boil down incredibly complex situations into rhetoric-laden one-liners.

'ey took 'ur jerbs?

[sek929]

Bingo, not to mention that Mexicans are stealing our jobs in their own country.