[macmario]

I am very confused here.
I read that the ps2 was twice as fast than a G4!!!
Does this means that a console is faster than a supercomputer.
Please tell me if this is true.
Because I use my G4 everyday for designing and rendering in 3D and I have not seen anything faster.

best regards

[Misha]

At rendering, PS2 is faster. It's really incredible.

Want one? I'm selling my brand new one.

[Adam Silver]

You need an MP G4 to have a computer faster than a PS2. And even then, software has to be optimized for MP and the Velocity Engine to be faster than a PS2.

[macmario]

I just can not beleive that... It is impressive, hope Apple comes with a very powerful answer to that.
So you are saying that the PS2 will be faster than the new nintendo too.

[exa]

I'd like to see a PS2 render 1024x768 game play, I mean, after all, the thing doesn't need to do much work - tv resolution is what? 320x240? And it has how much vram? 4 megs? whats this?

Don't tell me that the playstation II has a G4 chip that clocks over 500MHz...that would be pathetic! Apple needs to go bitch-slap some executives over at Motorola to set things straight.


------------------

The 4 meg of VRAM isnt an issue. Why? Well, if needed, the regular ram in the console can function as VRAM, kinda like AGP cards. So, chill out. PS2 will rock.

[joe]

Originally posted by exa:
I'd like to see a PS2 render 1024x768 game play, I mean, after all, the thing doesn't need to do much work - tv resolution is what? 320x240?

Exactly, at least that is what the original PSX resolution ran. Even an iMac does 4x that resolution at it's lowest possible setting. That's why G3 Macs can get away with PSX emulation despite not using 3D hardware acelleration or any of the custom chips.

Not sure about the new PS2 though. NTSC maxes out at around 720*480 for the video portion of the signal. That's sort of like running Quake3 at 640*480 more or less. It would look pretty damn good on a big screen TV (it does on mine .....joe

[JoNoiD]

Yea joe is right. The PS2 only has to render at 720x480 in order to present it on a TV screen, whereas if the Mac or PC rendered at 640x480 then it would look very blocky on the relatively higher resolution computer monitor.

------------------
Jon Purdy
[email protected]

[mindwaves]

Buy a computer if you want to play games. Console apps are dumb. You wonder why there are hardly andy 3d games and I mean real 3d games for the playstation is because it cant render properly and the same for ps2. it is dumb and just because it may have a 128 bit processor does not make it 4 times faster or more powerful than a pIII. The processor does little work in games on a computer, the graphic card does the business and the ps2 cant play anything at a high resolution. It is so easy to create a console, all you have to do is get a mini computer and lay it on the side.

Wow. Aren't you dumb. Hrm. Sure made a lot of games like Gran Turismo for desktops eh? Oh wait. Guess they didnt. And you did know that the original playstation had pretty decent graphics for its time right? And you realize that the effects and rendering power of PS2 couldnt probably even be DONE on your system. Hrm.

Oh well. Ignorance and stupidity is bliss I guess.

Ca$h

[mindwaves]

What about need for spped another great games for the comp? i know that they have need for spped on the playstation but the graphics are terrible.

Need for speed doesnt hold any sort of candle to Gran Turismo. At all. Like, comparing a pinto to a ferrari.

[JoNoiD]

Point is, you can get graphics almost as good as computer for much cheaper with PS2, and now with net access play your computer touting buddies online.
But a G4 is still cooler than any console



------------------
"For example, the Ministry of Plenty's forecast had estimated the output of boots for the quarter at a hundred and forty-five million pairs. The actual output was given as sixty-two millions. Winston, however in re-writing the forecast, marked the figure down to fifty-seven millions, so as to allow for the usual claim that the quota has been over-fulfilled. In any case, sixty-two millions was no nearer the truth than fifty-seven millions, or than a hundred and forty-five millions. Very likely no boots had been produced at all. Likelier still, nobody knew how many had been produced, much less cared. All one knew was that every quarter astronomical numbers of boots were procuded on paper, while perhaps half the population of Oceania want barefoot."

Jon Purdy
[email protected]

Well guys, let's see a PS 2 get you on GameRanger :-) Also, can a PS2 let you access your ICQ, Outlook, GR, AIM, AND open up a game at the same time? I doubt it... I'm sticking with my Mac for now :-)

--Nate Borland

[Jsnuff1]

u tell em nate

[Adam Silver]

Can't play Final Fantasy on a Mac. (Emulation doesn't count.)

[madcow]

1. Guys, lets face it. All the real game nerds are going to endup with both.

2. It's easy to make your game consol real fast when all the hardware is dedicated.

------------------
Moo

[mac freak]

After doing some reading, it seems obvious that PS2's biggest flaw isn't its graphics or rendering capabilities...

It's the fact that developers *HATE* developing games on it.

Why?
It has three chips, and game must be written with specific instructions for each chip. Each layer of a graphic must be drawn separately. All in all, a game will take about 8 times as long to develop as the same game would for the GameCube...

And don't tell me I'm a stupid liar

Oh, and this is my 600th post. Hooray!

------------------
Be Happy.

[Adam Silver]

I guess I'm not a real game nerd. I like console games, but computer games rarely interest me. Most of the computer games I own were either cheap or free with another purchase. At the same time, I had no problem paying $60 for Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete for PlayStation despite the fact that I bought (slightly different) Sega CD version years ago.

Lunar: Silver Star Story will be available for Windows early next year. If you know Japanese, you can play it now.

As for the difficulty of developing for the PS2, it doesn't matter; there will be more than enough PS2 owners to force developers to make games for the PS2 whether they want to or not.

[This message has been edited by Adam Silver (edited 10-30-2000).]

[cteselle]

Originally posted by exa:
I'd like to see a PS2 render 1024x768 game play, I mean, after all, the thing doesn't need to do much work - tv resolution is what? 320x240? And it has how much vram? 4 megs? whats this?

From a Sony Press Release:

Screen Resolution: Variable from 256 x 224 to 1280 x 1024

------------------
Promote Chicken Randomness

Ya, it renders at a REALLY low rez, with dedicated hardware, so it basicly sux. Don't even get me started on the controls. A keyboard and mouse will always be better than some gay gamepad. Even if it's analog. Internet? Ya, right. That POS 56k jusnk heap wont ever out ferorm braudband, and if a new device come out for that purpos (ie, gamecube) it will be WAY after any PC/Mac counterpart. 4 player split-screen sux a**. And from what I head, the max players in a console hosted game are much less than any PC/Mac hosted game. And can you have dedicated PS2 game server? Yah, thats what I thought. And Sony bosts that they use DVD, ooooh, ahhhh, 8 gigs, or whatever. Thats all un-compressed. PC/Mac games come compressed on disks. What about mods, skins, models, maps, and such, MAYBE on an xbox, but come on, how many memory cards are you going to need for that? G4 kicks PS2 booty, and PC (besides compatability) IMHO. Don't wast your time.

[Mushroomstamper]

Man, I hate morons like you.

PS2 will eventually have a small HD, for skins, levels, etc. It also has a mouse, and keyboard, and it will have broadband. Oh my, now you look like a complete flaming idiot, good thing you didnt use your real name.

Ca$h

Don't get stuck in the console/computer debate. Yeah you'll be able to view email on the psx2 eventually, and play network games, with a cable modem and HD. But you use it on a TV! it's got kick-ass graphics power as that's what it's designed to do from the ground-up, (don't expect kick-ass graphics at higher resolutions.. well higher than your TV can handle it anyway).
I pre-ordered mine, But I've also ordered a radeon.

I love playing games, including mac games, but have you tried playing gran turismo on your mac with a keyboard? it doesn't compare to an analogue pad and a 24" tv. But I have got a macally ishock controller to play MAME games (and that is simply superb). The playstation is a games console from the ground-up. your macintosh is a creative platform, if you want psx 2 quality graphics go and buy a console. As for games developers not liking psx2, they like it a lot more than the dreamcast.. I can count the new dreamcast games being developed in the UK on 1 hand. PSX2 is great hardware, you just have to stream the graphics so don't let the small amount of ram fool you. You're going to see some amazing stuff on that console in about 12 months time. ... BUT IT'S A CONSOLE1

You can't build a web site, write professional music, built a database, create killer 3D graphics, and develop for consoles using a console itself ;o) But yeah, games like quake 3, the sims, I love em, and wouldn't be able to relax at the end of the day with out a big network killing session on my G4

happy playing (whatever your platform)

[Misha]

For all you rez freaks, have you checked out PS2 on an HDTV? I have... very nice stuff. Personally, I'm one of those people who has no problem playing games at 640x480. But I'd still take a 50" HDTV with a PS2 over a 21" monitor at 1600x1200.... and don't tell me you wouldn't, either.

[exrae]

I'm going to purchase a PS2 for two reasons:

1. I do not yet have a DVD Player for the TV
(I'm not going to sit in an uncomfortable computer chair
and watch a DVD quality movie on a computer monitor)
2. Part of playing games is having a good time with friends
(I don't consider playing an abtract internet game with
a friend who is sitting alone at his house and me at
mine as fun as lounging on the couch havin a game)

The truth is, to play with people you know, they have to have that
game at their house and you have to connect to each other. That's fun
for certain times, but it lacks the inter-personal laughter etc. that
ACTUALLY being in the same room provides. For those reasons I'm going
to buy a PS2, and it really looks great.




------------------

exrae "The pool on the roof must have a leak"

Consoles suck because

-they have crap for games
-they have terrible graphics
-to get okish graphics you need a $3000 TV so forget cheapness.
-they have bad controllers

Consoles rule because

-they are cheap
-the games are really easy to beat

PC's/Mac's rule because

-you can use email, photoshop and icq all at once
-you can actually use things other than games
-they come with monitors (atleast, imacs do)
-they have killer graphics
-the games rule arse
-they rock consoles

PC's/Mac's suck because

-They are expensive, except 550 Mhz celerons, which suck anyway.


Final verdict: PC's/Mac's RULE consoles. also, the PS2 isnt even a console, because if it was a console it wouldn't do anything but play games, which means that consoles really lick, and the playstation sucks because it came out when the 233 beige g3's were around, and they whupped its arse too

-- www.gamersyndicate.com -online gaming reviews, news and more!

[exa]

Just to throw off the whole issue here... that PS2 is faster than G4... well anyone care to look at the nintendo gamecube specs? Yes, the 405mhz Gekko G4 processor... runs at 13 Gigaflops while the PS2 runs at merely 6. This whole thing has some form of relatively involved... you cannot directly compare 2 500mhz G4s to a PS2 (and hey, that 405mhz no altivec gamecube that pulls many more gflops than a dual g4).

[mindwaves]

The GameCube uses a 400 mhz Power PC G3 processor and not a G4. Remember, regardless of how many gigaflops a console or computer does, the graphics card does the majority of the work in rendering graphics which computers have and more of.

[Adam Silver]

Wrong. The GAMECUBE has a modified PowerPC G4 processor. It even includes the Velocity Engine.

[Cipher13]

I extremely highly doubt that.
Although I could be wrong.
I thought it was modded G3...
Where did you read it was a G4?
Let alone velocity engine?

Cipher13

Doesn't the gamecube use a PowerPC chip? If so why aren't we (faithul mac users) getting these 13 Gigaflop chips @ 405 MHz?
17 Gigaflops @ 500 MHz?

Someone needs to do something.

------------------
Hey everyone: Think Different

[joe]

Originally posted by cteselle:
From a Sony Press Release:

Screen Resolution: Variable from 256 x 224 to 1280 x 1024

Does the PS2 have VGA output or similar? No way you can view that resolution over the normal video cables (composite, S-Video)......joe

[Aric]

I was happy just knowing they had compared the PS2 with the G4. Why, because that shows that Sony knows that the G4 is a fast and powerful processer, and since it's over a year old it also shows that the G4 was way ahead of the competition. Anyway, that's my opinion.

[mindwaves]

This is from Nintendos website:

MPU("Microprocessor Unit")* IBM Power PC "Gekko"
Manufacturing Process 0.18 microns Copper Wire Technology
Clock Frequency 405 MHz
CPU Capacity 925 Dmips (Dhrystone 2.1)
Internal Data Precision 32bit Integer & 64bit Floating-point
External Bus Bandwidth 1.6GB/second(Peak)
External Bus Bandwidth 1.6GB/second(Peak) (32bit address, 64bit data bus 202.5MHz)
Internal Cache L1: Instruction 32KB, Data 32KB (8 way) L2: 256KB (2 way)
Internal Cache L1: Instruction 32KB, Data 32KB (8 way) L2: 256KB (2 way)
System LSI "Flipper"
Manufacturing Process 0.18 microns NEC Embedded DRAM Process
Clock Frequency 202.5MHz
Embedded Frame Buffer Approx. 2MB
Embedded Frame Buffer Approx. 2MB Sustainable Latency : 5ns (1T-SRAM)
Embedded Texture Cache Approx. 1MB Sustainable Latency : 5ns (1T-SRAM)
Texture Read Bandwidth 12.8GB/second (Peak)
Main Memory Bandwidth 3.2GB/second (Peak)
Color, Z Buffer Each is 24bits
Image Processing Function Fog, Subpixel Anti-aliasing, HW Light x8, Alpha Blending, Virtual Texture Design, Multi-texture Mapping/Bump/Environment Mapping, MIPMAP, Bilinear Filtering, Real-time Texture Decompression (S3TC), etc.
Other

And the geckko i believe is a G3 or a least a power pc.

[Arty50]

Whurp, you couldn't be more wrong.

I dare you to show me a game better than Metal Gear Solid for playstation. If you haven't played it then don't comment. Those who have know what I'm talking about. This is the best game ever. And if you've put the preview disc for MGS2 in a PS2, you'd cream in your pants.

Best graphics goes to NFL2K for the Dreamcast. I have had numerous people walk by my TV while I was playing this game and comment that they thought a real game was on TV.

PCs/Macs dream of having games like these.

(Side note: A VGA cable can be purchased for the Dreamcast. I've heard that it looks incredible when hooked up to a computer monitor.)

[mindwaves]

What about Civilization II? It is a really popular game for computers and impossible to play on a playstation becsue you will need a keyboard and a mouse and dont tell me that you are going to have one of these on your laps when you are watching tv.

[mac freak]

Listen people --
Consoles are built for gaming. They have no other purpose but to run games for you. Every aspect of a console is optimized for playing games. Duh!

A computer on the other hand, is not designed with gaming as a very high priority. More effort is put towards productivity. Businesses run off of computers, not gaming consoles, so the machines are built with an entirely different feature set in mind.

It really isn't fair to compare a console to a computer when it comes to games. It's like saying, "I (let's use a high school math teacher as an example) am better at Algebra than you, Mrs. Super Model." Well, sure a super model can do math. But she doesn't specialize in it, so it isn't fair to compare her with someone that does.

Ok, maybe that was a dumb post, but I think I got my point across

------------------
Be Happy.

[jaguarandi]

Originally posted by joe:
Does the PS2 have VGA output or similar? No way you can view that resolution over the normal video cables (composite, S-Video)......joe

PS2 has a modular video output. Currently the highest resolution available is through component video, but that's not to say that VGA (SVGA, etc.) won't come in the future...

/e

[jaguarandi]

Originally posted by Arty50:

I dare you to show me a game better than Metal Gear Solid for playstation. If you haven't played it then don't comment. Those who have know what I'm talking about. This is the best game ever. And if you've put the preview disc for MGS2 in a PS2, you'd cream in your pants.

Well, you cited the only game that can top MGS: it's own sequel

(Side note: A VGA cable can be purchased for the Dreamcast. I've heard that it looks incredible when hooked up to a computer monitor.)

I own a VGA box for the DC and occasionally put it out to my 17" Apple Monitor (Graphite) when family members are appropriating the TV. Some games look horrible - especially 'pixel doubled' games like SNK vs. Capcom, Street Fighter III, etc. Native full-VGA games though, like Oratorio Tangram, Shotukou Battle 2 and even Puyo Puyon look fabulous. You haven't seen DC until you've seen it on VGA

Misha, I also saw the PS2 hooked up to HDTV last summer (Akihabara). I just about passed out, it was beautiful. Even the jaggies in DOA2 looked good!

/e

[blizaine]

I think the only reason they say the PS2 is "twice" as fast as a G4 is that the G4 at 500Mhz can sustain just over 1 Gigaflop, with a peak at about 3.6 Gigaflops. However the PS2 at 295Mhz can sustain over 6.2 Gigaflops.


not really a fair comparison, since they were designed to do two different things.

[This message has been edited by blizaine (edited 11-03-2000).]

Originally posted by Arty50:
Whurp, you couldn't be more wrong.

I dare you to show me a game better than Metal Gear Solid for playstation. If you haven't played it then don't comment. Those who have know what I'm talking about. This is the best game ever. And if you've put the preview disc for MGS2 in a PS2, you'd cream in your pants.

Best graphics goes to NFL2K for the Dreamcast. I have had numerous people walk by my TV while I was playing this game and comment that they thought a real game was on TV.

PCs/Macs dream of having games like these.

(Side note: A VGA cable can be purchased for the Dreamcast. I've heard that it looks incredible when hooked up to a computer monitor.)

ah well, maybe i dont know what i'm talking about. but generally, console games never impressed me at all