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DeathToWindows · Jan 22, 2006, 12:55 AM

Please, tell me someone is as obssessive as I am in regard to that sublime object known as an Espresso. I just spent two and a half up to my armpits in my grinder, cleaning / tweaking.

I think it did some good, but I am not really happy with what I'm getting from it. We're talking about an Estro Profi (sold by Starbucks in the mid-90s) - think the "Barista" machine plus a built-in burr grinder - it's got a good pump, the lines are clean and there's enough pressure - I'm using fresh beans, usually moderate surface oil, ground to a consistancy around that of granulated sugar, then tamped.

What I've been getting is a 2-3oz/25sec shot with highly variable crema. Usually, too damn thin - doesn't stay around / is too light.

Arrgh.

Please, pay no attention to the caffeinated freak... unless you understand the above ramblings... or just want to tell me to go to bed.

turtle777 · Jan 22, 2006, 01:33 AM

That's why I only do espresso drinks like latte or cappuccino. It ain't THAT damn hard.

as2 · Jan 22, 2006, 10:53 AM

You should check out http://www.coffeegeek.com

At the moment my budget is dictating my espresso obsession!

I've got a £50 ($90) espresso machine (http://www.coffeegeek.com/reviews/co...elonghi_bar140) and I'm currently saving to get a decent burr grinder so that I can use fresh beans.

At the moment I'm using Illy ground espresso coffee (£6/$10)

And to be honest, it makes a pretty decent shot. With practice, and a little temperature surfing I can get indistinguishable shots one after the other.

Think it's turning into an obsession though! Even got my friends coming round to mine for an espresso or a cappuccino because they prefer it to the places in town!

I find that grinding the beans to something more like castor sugar gives a better crema - try that and see how you get on.

Stradlater · 11:40 AM

The "Barista" machine produces "cheater's crema" because the portafilter itself pressurizes the shot, guaranteeing crema in even the poorest of situations. I just checked your model out, and the non-standard portafilter makes me think it's the exact same one. In other words, crema—usually an indicator of an at-the-very-least-decent shot—will mean very little. Additionally, tamping is a HUGE part of the espresso-making experience. All-in-one machines (grinder+maker) are usually not a good choice because you cannot regulate this. In your case, it probably doesn't tamp at all, relying on the pressurized portafilter completely.

I second as2's coffeegeek.com recommendation, but not the Illy recommendation. Pre-ground is not the way to go if you have a grinder. Most beans lose a significant amount of freshness within hours of grinding.

To be honest, if your machine is 10 years old, you might want to think about upgrading to separate grinder and machine. The bare minimum for some of the best espresso in your life is the Rancilio Silvia. Rancilio also produces an excellent grinder, the Rocky. The grinder is more important than the machine, so don't get one without the other. Many cheaper burr grinders just don't grind fine enough for espresso.

Rancilio's items are often sold in a discounted pair:
http://www.1stincoffee.com/rancilio-silvia-rocky.htm

$790 seems expensive, yes, but I made an $800ish investment in machines about 2 years ago and have never looked back. I even started roasting my own beans (resulting in fresher and almost always better than internet-ordered beans I used to get), which is really quite cheap at $2-4/lb. And now my shots cost me less than 5 cents (as opposed to the public $1.80 or more; before I roasted my own, even a $15 lb. of coffee gave me shots for about 10 cents). The machines have basically paid for themselves, and I RARELY have coffee that's even CLOSE to as good from public places.

Of course, Silvia is a minimum, and there's room to grow from there in a few years when you're ready for the next step. I'm still waiting for my Isomac Venus to die before upgrading to an even more expensive machine, but given the noticeably-even-better coffee I've tasted from a friend's Andreja Premium, I'll be doing it eventually.

Before my Isomac Venus (comparable to Silvia), I used a Barista. Trust me, it's an enormous jump up once you get comfortable with using a new machine. Friends of mine have Baristas, so I still have experience with it every once in awhile. The shot isn't AWFUL, really, it's just—as you mentioned—thin and it's really rather lifeless in flavor.

EDIT: I overlooked your tamping information to begin with. As as2 said, the fineness should be closer to superfine sugar—not quite powdered, but getting there. Regardless, my experience with Baristas is that they don't like espresso-fine coffee grounds—they also don't really like a good 30-lb tamp. When I used a Barista, I used bigger grounds (closer to granulated) and just barely used the back of a spoon to even the grounds down into the portafilter into a lens-like curve.

as2 · Jan 22, 2006, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Stradlater

I second as2's coffeegeek.com recommendation, but not the Illy recommendation. Pre-ground is not the way to go if you have a grinder. Most beans lose a significant amount of freshness within hours of grinding.

Like I said - wish I could afford a decent grinder!

Stradlater · Jan 22, 2006, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by as2

Like I said - wish I could afford a decent grinder!

Well eventually the leap forward could be nice

All said and done, though, Illy is some of the best pre-ground stuff out there.

cenutrio · Jan 22, 2006, 05:15 PM

Best of lucks cooking a good expresso. I really understand you guys.

In my case, having a good expresso is as easy as going down the stairs and going to a coffee shop (cafeteria) and get a professional made "solo" for 1 euro.

You can check the girls and life on the street while at it. It can not get better than that

cheers

turtle777 · Jan 22, 2006, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by as2

At the moment I'm using Illy ground espresso coffee (£6/$10)

Illy is great stuff. I used it for a while. I joust found it a little expensive.
I'm also more a latte person, so even lower quality stuff will do for that.

-t

MM-o4 · Jan 22, 2006, 06:39 PM

for me it all comes down to the milk. I like a flat white and the milk must be right. Not to hot not to cold. To hot is destroys the sweetness of the milk when heated, to cold and you don't get enough. My fav café uses victoria beans which I have had at other places and it's horrible. But this guy loves to make espresso and it pays off.

I didn't think Americans are big on espresso but are more into percolated. [/generalisation]

A good coffee is the best way to start the day

MM

DeathToWindows · Jan 23, 2006, 09:33 AM

Ok, some more detail: I'm familiar with CoffeeGeek and I am not braindead enough to be using a pressurized PF - I'm using the Saeco NP/PF with a double basket. Pulled a couple more shots - I'm much happier now - nice crema, no bitterness, 22 second pour.

I've been buying my beans from JP Licks (a local ice cream / coffee chain that roasts their own) and am quite happy.

Ok, the org. message sounded a hell of a lot more desprate than it needed to...

Thanks.... and I would dearly like to get a can of Illy... it's just a bit expensive on a student budget as opposed to JPL selling me 1lb of beans for $7 (usually $10; I have friends at my local shop).

Also, the Estro Profi (my machine) is a semiauto with built in grinder - tamping is left entirely to the operator. I do have a few neurons left!

Monique · Jan 23, 2006, 12:18 PM

You cannot get an expresso from the following countries, U.S., Canada and the U.K. If you adore coffee, look for something French or Italian.

andi*pandi · Jan 23, 2006, 12:23 PM

JP licks:

wdlove · Jan 23, 2006, 01:31 PM

I don't really care for just a plain expressive. I am obsessive about using my grinder and Hot press to make good fresh Starbucks coffee everyday. Also enjoy an occasional Mocha Latte.

turtle777 · Jan 23, 2006, 01:34 PM

Ok guys, it's ESPRESSO, not expresso or expressive.

-t

Stradlater · Jan 23, 2006, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Monique

You cannot get an expresso from the following countries, U.S., Canada and the U.K. If you adore coffee, look for something French or Italian.

Haven't looked in my kitchen, have you?

Dakar · Jan 23, 2006, 05:39 PM

Hobo's expresso

SpaceMonkey · Jan 23, 2006, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Ok guys, it's ESPRESSO, not expresso or expressive.

-t

Expresso = espresso-on-the-go.

Or maybe espresso that's been FedEx-ed?

"I'll have my coffee on expresso, please!"

JHromadka · Jan 23, 2006, 11:02 PM

Another vote for Illy.

as2 · Jan 23, 2006, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Monique

You cannot get an expresso from the following countries, U.S., Canada and the U.K. If you adore coffee, look for something French or Italian.

You can't get an expresso anywhere!

You can however get an espresso pretty much anywhere these days with Starbucks and their search for global dominance.

A GOOD espresso is a different matter. I can get one in my kitchen!! Can you?

khufuu · Jan 24, 2006, 02:55 AM

Death:

If I remember correctly, a 22 second pour seems a little fast.

Increase the tamp a wee bit to get this up to 27-30 seconds.

Also, if you're getting a better pour after a few more shots, it seems that you're getting the machine up to a better temperature so you're seeing results even at 22 seconds.

Ain't espresso fun!

volcano · Jan 24, 2006, 04:21 AM

Actually, for a double shot, an 18-22 second extraction time is considered the best. A triple shot? 26-28 seconds.

I love Illy beans. We use them at the Cheesecake Factory and they make a good shot of espresso time and time again. I've started using Illy at home, as well.

DeathToWindows · Jan 24, 2006, 09:02 AM

Yeah, I started the 22sec timing after interrogating a few barista friends...

spatterson · Jan 24, 2006, 02:09 PM

Here is my espresso maker! No auto features, but it does produce wonderful crema!

spatterson · Jan 24, 2006, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by volcano

Actually, for a double shot, an 18-22 second extraction time is considered the best. A triple shot? 26-28 seconds.

I love Illy beans. We use them at the Cheesecake Factory and they make a good shot of espresso time and time again. I've started using Illy at home, as well.

Never tried those beans! I will have to get some! I see them at cost plus world market all the time!

DeathToWindows · Jan 24, 2006, 03:26 PM

The breville is a nice unit - in that it actually involves enough metal in the portafilter and the brewhead. Damn expensive for what it is though (not knocking you, just stating some facts about the unit).

DeathToWindows · Jan 24, 2006, 03:26 PM

The breville is a nice unit - in that it actually involves enough metal in the portafilter and the brewhead. Damn expensive for what it is though (not knocking you, just stating some facts about the unit).

spatterson · Jan 24, 2006, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by DeathToWindows

The breville is a nice unit - in that it actually involves enough metal in the portafilter and the brewhead. Damn expensive for what it is though (not knocking you, just stating some facts about the unit).

Its a great unit in my opinion... I actually got it for 400 instead of 500. It has a swivel frother which is really nice. Better than the "cafe roma"... and its nice that it has a 15bar pump instead of presure.