[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

On a side note when I went to Ep3 I dragged my non-Star Wars fan boyfriend along. The theatre had hired people to dress up as Vader, Stormtroppers & Snowtroopers to stand around.

Before i knew it Darth Vader had my boyfriend by the neck in a choke hold and a stormtropper was pointing a gun at him. Thank god I had my new camera on me. The picture is so much like my dreams it is scary.

And you aren't going to show us? He won't mind. It's not every day we get to see Canadian Stormtroopers.

[nath]

Originally Posted by Randman

Hey, thanks. That was actually pretty cool though I would think Vader would be able to sense his own offspring.

Come to think of it, the opening crawl says something about Vader being 'obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker' (way before Palpatine pops up).

So he's actually playing dumb at that point "Oh, my master, but how can that be?"

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by nath

Come to think of it, the opening crawl says something about Vader being 'obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker' (way before Palpatine pops up).

So he's actually playing dumb at that point "Oh, my master, but how can that be?"

Excellent point! That hadn't occurred to me.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by nath

http://www.dvdanswers.com/misc/chris...emperornew.mp3

Thank you for finding the audio, nath; for comparison, listen to the old version:
http://www.dvdanswers.com/misc/chris...emperorold.mp3

Now with the revised dialog, the conventional explanation is that Darth had known nothing about his son. But, if you listen to it again, when he says "how could that be?" one could plausibly assert that he is playing coy and attempting to deceive Palpatine. The conventional explanation is likely the correct one, though; it's a fact we may have to accept if we choose to buy GL's revisionist mythology.

[Sparkletron]

This movie didn't work for so many reasons. Some of the more glaring...

1. Anakin's transition to Vader was wholly unconvincing. He's whining and resentful of his status in the Jedi collective and worried about his Padme premonitions. Fine. Next thing we see him killing a colleague, being subservient to some evil guy who is apparently so weak that he needs Anakin's help, murdering innocent children, turning against his best friend, Obi-Wan, etc. Oh, and the name Darth Vader is apparently as arbitrary as deciding that Obi-Wan should ride a giant lizard into battle. Whatever. There are medical explanations for such behavior in the DSM-IVr but I don't think that was what George was aiming for.

2. No strong female roles whatsoever. In fact, the movie basically suggests that Anakin's fall from grace was due to Padme's inability to control her ovaries. In other words, women cause problems; women are sources of chaos and instability. If this movie taught me anything, it is that a simple medical abortion can avoid decades of intergalactic war.

3. All these premonitions and feelings and special Jedi powers, yet no one realizes that Chancellor Palpatine is an evil Sith person until it's too late? Jedi magic, like most magic in the fantasy-film genre, is very selective. Basically, it gets invoked whenever the writer needs to write himself out of a hole.

4. All that technology but they haven't discovered plexiglass. A funny spoof would be a film about the bottom-dwelling community suing the Jedi for all the broken glass, smashed vehicles, and dead bodies that constantly rain down whenever the Jedi are in town.

And there's more--much more. But I have to get back to work...

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Ok something that hit me last night, Palp's abduction was to get Anakin called back from the outer rims. It seems that Palp was JUST abducted and they are escaping when all of a sudden Anakin is there all the way from the other side of the galaxy for the start of the action.

Even in attack of the clones it is mentioned that it will take hours from them to get from one planet to the other.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

I agree. Even in Empire he said "We could destroy the Emperor and rule as father/son etc."

I don't think Vader could have done it however. He was ruthless. But not as ruthless as Sidious

I think Vader had always hated the Emperor for turning him into a monster and was always looking for a way out.

[budster101]

Exactly. He was looking for a way out. Why else save Chewi?

[JoshuaZ]

Because Chewie is super cool, thats why!

[Ghoser777]

Originally Posted by Sparkletron

2. No strong female roles whatsoever. In fact, the movie basically suggests that Anakin's fall from grace was due to Padme's inability to control her ovaries. In other words, women cause problems; women are sources of chaos and instability. If this movie taught me anything, it is that a simple medical abortion can avoid decades of intergalactic war.

I'm all for individual interpretation, but I don't think that's even implied - that's like saying WWII would have been avoided if people had bought Hitler's paintings. The problem wasn't "control of ovaries", it was control of fear. Anakin was unable to control his fear, and it led to his fall. He was afraid of Padme dying, he was afraid of disclosing the pregnancy to his Jedi comrades so he tried to take an alternate route and deal with it himself, etc.

[selowitch]

I'll freely admit that Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was too precipitous and not well-substantiated. I think it should have been a more gradual process, even though they tried to start it in Episode II with the death of Shmi.

Also, while his disagreement with Mace Windu over what to do with Palpatine made sense (I.e., the Jedi should not be engaging in political assassination, and besides, I need his powers to save Padmé), I don't see his participation in killing Windu as enough to send him over the edge to the Dark Side, even if he was impressed by Sidious' display of power. In the next scene you're killing Younglings? And yet, at the film's end, you're still wondering about Padmé and regretting killing her? I think he would have been too far gone to care at that point.

Lucas had quite a challenge in trying to turn a Jedi hero into the galaxy's greatest villian in just over two hours of footage. And while doing it, he would have to lead the slaughter of his former Jedi family, and try to kill his best friend and wife, all while forsaking the philosophy he lived under for twenty years and becoming the thing he swore to destroy. It's all a bit too much.

Oh, and BTW, one shouldn't take Palpatine's cry of being "too weak" to hold off Mace Windu was anything other than a ploy to draw Anakin into the fight. Palpatine was always much stronger in the Force than Windu (the latter's real strength is lightsaber combat, not so much in Force powers). It was all part of Palpatine's seduction: Use Anakin's compassion for Palpatine and his friendship to serve the Dark Side.

On the other hand, they did a lot of cool things, too. I loved it, for example, when Palpatine mentions the incident with the Sand People and you can just barely hear the screams of a Tusken Raider in the background. Nice touch!

It's Star Wars, after all.

Originally Posted by goMac

I think Vader had always hated the Emperor for turning him into a monster and was always looking for a way out.

That and the recurring habit of Sith apprentices to betray and/or kill their Masters.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Sparkletron

This movie didn't work for so many reasons. Some of the more glaring...

the name Darth Vader is apparently as arbitrary as deciding that Obi-Wan should ride a giant lizard into battle. Whatever.

I guess Luke and Han riding snow lizards in Empire was not arbitrary?

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by Randman

I guess Luke and Han riding snow lizards in Empire was not arbitrary?

Lucas should totally make another film about that! He would so rake in the money.

[nath]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Thank you for finding the audio, nath; for comparison, listen to the old version:
http://www.dvdanswers.com/misc/chris...emperorold.mp3

Now with the revised dialog, the conventional explanation is that Darth had known nothing about his son. But, if you listen to it again, when he says "how could that be?" one could plausibly assert that he is playing coy and attempting to deceive Palpatine. The conventional explanation is likely the correct one, though; it's a fact we may have to accept if we choose to buy GL's revisionist mythology.

'how could that be' would appear to be Vader referring to Palpatine telling Vader that he had killed Padme (at the end of Revenge of the Sith, presumeably before she gave birth). Strange in that light that Vader's first reaction isn't to think 'well ****, Padme might still be alive then'.

Looks more and more like Lucas trying to worm his way out of a pretty mangled story line. The whole prequel trilogy would have been so much better had Anakin been Luke's age in The Phantom Menace.

[andretan]

I'd classify that giant lizard in ROTS into the same category as Jar Jar Binks -- annoying.

[Randman]

The funny thing is so many of the SW characters seem to embody the spirit than technology is bad. The Ewoks, the Wookies. Riding the lizard in Empire and Sith. Yoda's simple life on Dagobah. Then George goes hog wild on the special effects and revisionism.

[Sparkletron]

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

The problem wasn't "control of ovaries", it was control of fear. Anakin was unable to control his fear, and it led to his fall. He was afraid of Padme dying, he was afraid of disclosing the pregnancy to his Jedi comrades so he tried to take an alternate route and deal with it himself, etc.

You just quoted me the official interpretation as blessed by GL. We all know what GL intended; he's made no secret of it. The problem with it is that Anakin doesn't come off as being fearful at all. He basically acts the way a child might act after being reprimanded for not eating his vegetables. That whole "fear is the mind-killer" theme just doesn't work when the script is uninspiring and the actors are made of wood and stone. And while GL might not have intentionally wanted to portray women as frail and feckless and ineffectual--that is exactly what he has done. There are no women Jedi. The role of women is limited to courtly princesses or victims. All Padme can talk about is how she wants to escape this complex and confusing world and live a simple life on the farm. The message is: Women can't even control their own reproductive cycles, let alone exhibit the sort of control that Jedi have over things physical, mental, and spiritual. Anakin to Padme: "Me Tarzan; you Jane."

-S

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by Sparkletron

There are no women Jedi.

Yes there are. One gets shot in the back by the clones in Episode 3.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Yes there are. One gets shot in the back by the clones in Episode 3.

There are a bunch in Ep2 also.

But I didn't see any in the Jedi council.

[budster101]

Also, in ROTS, did everyone miss the Jedi Chick?

[Big Mac]

Did Yaddle ever make an appearance aside from Episode 1? Suppose not. She was my all time favorite Jedi Master.

[Randman]

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Did Yaddle ever make an appearance aside from Episode 1? Suppose not. She was my all time favorite Jedi Master.

She was your fav even though she never did anything or said anything?
Hell even I didn't know she existed.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by andretan

I'd classify that giant lizard in ROTS into the same category as Jar Jar Binks -- annoying.

KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH!

KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH!

KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH!

KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH!

KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH! KREE-CHAH! KREECH-HAH!


That thing had 120 seconds of screen time and let out that annoying screetch about 100 times. What the hell George? We see the freaking lizard. The hero is riding it, great, whatever.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

She was your fav even though she never did anything or said anything?
Hell even I didn't know she existed.

Perhaps my online sarcasm generator needs a power boost. I thought the italicized text would be sufficient.

[mchladek]

Originally Posted by selowitch

Also, while his disagreement with Mace WIndu over what to do with Palpatine made sense (I.e., the Jedi should not be engaging in political assassination, and besides, I need his powers to save Padmé), I don't see his participation in killing Windu as enough to send him over the edge to the Dark Side, even if he was impressed by Sidious' display of power. In the next scene you're killing Younglings? And yet, at the film's end, you're still wondering about Padmé and regretting killing her? I think he would have been too far gone to care at that point.

I finally got a chance to watch this movie a couple of days ago and this is the thing that struck me the most: killing Windu didn't seem like that much. I kept going back to it in my mind as the movie proceeded. I think it makes more sense to me now. An important thing to remember is Anakin's belief in an uncorrupt power. Palp is trying to convince Anakin that the Jedi mean to create a coup so they can retain their control. However, Anakin is woe to believe it. He views the Jedi as omnibenevolent. In the Windu/Palpatine dual Palp convinces Anakin that the Jedi are power hungry. This sense of betrayal by the Jedi would lead Anakin to betray the Jedi but not Padme.

This was one of my favorite scenes of the movie though. I thought it was cool it explained how the Emperor got disfigured. And I thought the scene mimicked the Luke/Emperor scene of ROTJ where Luke is getting barbecued. This scene I felt gave greater significance to Vader's decision to kill the Emperor. He had tricked him once before. He wasn't going to let him do it again.

I think this was probably my favorite Star Wars movie of all. Maybe it was just because I had not expectations whatsoever and I was really impressed with it. But then again, I don't really like ESB so I'm not the typical Star Wars fan.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by mchladek

This was one of my favorite scenes of the movie though. I thought it was cool it explained how the Emperor got disfigured.

AFAIK, Emperor Palpatine was not disfigured. He willfully altered his appearance, transforming into his Sith form in front of Anakin as another component of the deception. I'm pretty sure the cloaked Darth Sidious who appeared to Dooku and Maul before him was in the Sith form of Palpatine rather than the Chancellor form.

[mchladek]

He doesn't look too disfigured to me.

[budster101]

The more he shot those bolts of electricity the more deformed he became. It was the dark side of the force coming through him and altering his appearance. It's permanent I'm affraid. No plastic surgery could fix that. What I want to know is what the hell happend to yoda? Man, he's all wrinkled and short.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by budster101

Also, in ROTS, did everyone miss the Jedi Chick?

Waiting for Episode VII: Return of the Jedi Chicks !

-t

[selowitch]

Drat!!! Accidental duplicate post. Delete this please!

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by budster101

The more he shot those bolts of electricity the more deformed he became. It was the dark side of the force coming through him and altering his appearance.

In my opinion/impression, as pastey-white as Sidious looks under his hood in Episodes I & II, he is not deformed until he calls upon the Dark Side of the Force in order to "amp up" his lightning attack on Mace Windu in Episode III. It's an interesting suggestion that he willingly undergoes this metamorphosis in order to evoke pity (or perhaps fear/reverence/awe?) in Anakin.

Personally, I'm inclined to think that the deformation is rather an unpleasant side effect of drawing excessively on the Dark Side, such that by Episode VI, the Emperor is even more enfeebled. I think his cries to Anakin that he is "too weak" to withstand the assault by Windu is likewise rather disingenuous; what he really wants is to force Anakin into the fight ("you must ... choose") and to hasten his fall to the Dark Side.

It is the Emperor's particular evil that he exploits Anakin's loyalty to his friends (Palpatine and certainly Padmé but curiously not Obi-Wan ["the closest thing {Anakin has} to a father"]) in order to suck him in. What a bastard!

[Randman]

Or one could argue that Sidious was merely showing his true face after the encounter with Windu.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Randman

Or one could argue that Sidious was merely showing his true face after the encounter with Windu.

Perhaps. But if his aim was to evoke pity in Anakin, wouldn't he have been better off show up the kindly, grandfatherly, Chancellor Palpatine face that had engendered such affection in the young Jedi? I conjecture that he had long been experimenting with ways to leverage the power of the Dark Side and hadn't used the lightning before, which is why he grows increasingly enthralled as his power grows during the standoff with Windu, culminating in his triumphant shout of "Unlimited Power!"

Whether or not the lightning actually disfigures him or merely wears away his disguise and disfigurement becomes a convenient excuse ("Gee, Mr. Chancellor, you sure do look like a Sith Lord to me!") is anybody's guess.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Sparkletron

That whole "fear is the mind-killer" theme just doesn't work when the script is uninspiring and the actors are made of wood and stone.

Hayden Christensen might been mistaken for Mannequin Skywalker, eh?

[budster101]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Waiting for Episode VII: Return of the Jedi Chicks !

-t

Oh yeah. He'd really rake in the money!

Originally Posted by selowitch

In my opinion/impression, as pastey-white as Sidious looks under his hood in Episodes I & II, he is not deformed until he calls upon the Dark Side of the Force in order to "amp up" his lightning attack on Mace Windu in Episode III. It's an interesting suggestion that he willingly undergoes this metamorphosis in order to evoke pity (or perhaps fear/reverence/awe?) in Anakin.

Personally, I'm inclined to think that the deformation is rather an unpleasant side effect of drawing excessively on the Dark Side, such that by Episode VI, the Emperor is even more enfeebled. I think his cries to Anakin that he is "too weak" to withstand the assault by Windu is likewise rather disingenuous; what he really wants is to force Anakin into the fight ("you must ... choose") and to hasten his fall to the Dark Side.

It is the Emperor's particular evil that he exploits Anakin's loyalty to his friends (Palpatine and certainly Padmé but curiously not Obi-Wan ["the closest thing {Anakin has} to a father"]) in order to suck him in. What a bastard!

Interesting take. I'm thinking this has to be as on target as any explanation could be.

[iKevin]

OK, after seeing this for a second time . . . i'm impressed. I must have just been in a bad mood during opening night or something.

[dreilly1]

I'm a little late to the party, as I just saw it today. It's definitely the best film out of all the prequels, although that's not saying much. I think that it's unfair to compare the prequels to the original trilogy because the special effects available are so different. If the original trilogy cound be remade with today's effects (but with Han shooting first, dammit!), they would all be better than this one.

Even though the effects are so much better today, they're also much more common -- we're very used to them. I was too young to see anything but Jedi in the theaters, but I do know that part of the magic of the trilogy was the ability to construct these fabulous worlds out of plaster models and animatronic aliens, which you simply couldn't see in any other movies at the time. Now with the proliferation of passable CG effects, it almost seems too easy, and you need to really look hard to get the same sense of wonder.

Originally Posted by nath

The whole prequel trilogy would have been so much better had Anakin been Luke's age in The Phantom Menace.

I think we could have been better served if the first two movies were morphed into one movie, starting with an older Anakin. It would also have made the romance between Anakin and Padme less.... ooky. It's way too much story to cover in one movie, that's true, but it might have forced Lucas to actually edit the combination better.

[Ghoser777]

Originally Posted by Sparkletron

And while GL might not have intentionally wanted to portray women as frail and feckless and ineffectual--that is exactly what he has done. There are no women Jedi. The role of women is limited to courtly princesses or victims. All Padme can talk about is how she wants to escape this complex and confusing world and live a simple life on the farm. The message is: Women can't even control their own reproductive cycles, let alone exhibit the sort of control that Jedi have over things physical, mental, and spiritual. Anakin to Padme: "Me Tarzan; you Jane."

-S

1. There are women Jedi
2. If a women doesn't have a dominant role, does that make the movie anti-female all of a sudden? I never saw any Chinese Jedi - GL is against the Chinese! They're 1/6th of the human population and deserve adequate representation! GL must be saying Chinese aren't smart enough to use the force!
3. Although Padme had some sucky lines, I don't think that makes her an inherently weak character. Padme has very strong beliefs and expresses them frequently.
4. I'm sure Padme could have had an abortion, but she didn't seem to want one. Is the only way a women can show control over her reproductive cycle through an abortion? I don't think so.
5. Padme wanted to escape war... can you honestly blame her?!?!? I think it's perfectly reasonable for a spouse to want her significant other to come back from a war safely so they can go live happily ever after. I think anything else would look strange at best.
6. I don't think Padme finds the world confusing - she finds it depressing. She sees war all around her and democracy failing. She wants escape.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by dreilly1

I think that it's unfair to compare the prequels to the original trilogy because the special effects available are so different. If the original trilogy cound be remade with today's effects (but with Han shooting first, dammit!).

Actually, it should be Han shoots. Not first. Greedo should never shoot.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Personally I thought they should have made ep 1-3 more campy and retro. They SORTA did that on Star Trek Enterprise with T-Pol's outfits.

[Randman]

Anakin and Padme's hair weren't campy enough?

[MallyMal]

Until I saw the prequels I always had the impression that the lightsaber was only the weapon of the Jedi knight and those training to be a Jedi knight. I felt that masters were beyond the lightsaber and only used the Force. Hence why Yoda never had a lightsaber and neither did Palpatine. I liked it better that why in my head because it showed that once you mastered the force you no longer needed mechanical weapons. I always viewed Obi Wan, Vader, and Luke as knights and Yoda and Palpatine as masters.

No one ever said any of the above in any of the movies but that is how I interpreted until the prequels.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Randman

Anakin and Padme's hair weren't campy enough?

Ya well a bun hairdo isn't really enough.

[budster101]

The light saber is considered an elegent weapon. "Obi Wan Kenobee" Episode IV.
I think this is the only weapon they prefer to use, and consider all other weapons barbarick... but they also use the guns in their ships.. so, there is a conflict? Why would a Jedi even fly in a fighter? This goes against their code, doesn't it? (The masters anyway, and Obi-Wan was one in Episode III)

There are quite a bit of confliction going on in these movies.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by budster101

The light saber is considered an elegent weapon. "Obi Wan Kenobee" Episode IV.
I think this is the only weapon they prefer to use, and consider all other weapons barbarick... but they also use the guns in their ships.. so, there is a conflict?

Are you seriously suggesting light sabbers as ship weapons ?

-t

[macaddict0001]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Are you seriously suggesting light sabbers as ship weapons ?

-t

I would suspect that he meant they would fly weaponless, or use the force.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by MallyMal

Until I saw the prequels I always had the impression that the lightsaber was only the weapon of the Jedi knight and those training to be a Jedi knight. I felt that masters were beyond the lightsaber and only used the Force. Hence why Yoda never had a lightsaber and neither did Palpatine. I liked it better that why in my head because it showed that once you mastered the force you no longer needed mechanical weapons. I always viewed Obi Wan, Vader, and Luke as knights and Yoda and Palpatine as masters.

I'm really glad you said this. I was disappointed in this, too, because I liked the idea that both Yoda and Palpatine were too strong in the Force to have need of lightsabers. I liked to think that, in Episode VI, even if Vader hadn't blocked Luke's attack that Palpatine would have been able to defend himself.

I also liked it better when Force Lightning was the Emperor's peculiar perversion of the Force, unique to him. Imagine my dismay when Count Dooku used it on Anakin and Obi-Wan in Episode II and then Yoda whipped out his lightsaber. Don't get me wrong — it was still an enjoyable movie and scene, but had I been the screenwriter, I would have handled it differently.

[wowway1]

I finally got around to seeing this. My thoughts are similar - this is the best of the prequils, and that's not saying much. The effects were way way way overdone IMO. The last 20-30 minutes of the film were easily the best, and the final fight was fantastic (easy to see the PG13 rating). I'll watch it again, but not at the theater.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by macaddict0001

I would suspect that he meant they would fly weaponless, or use the force.

That is what they did in one of the Star Wars video game along with using weapons.