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Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 07:49 AM

Right, but I was saying that the people here are more than average Mac users. And from the screenshots
I have seen most don't have partitions. Not that partition will help you if your drive goes bad.

OreoCookie · Oct 22, 2007, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

(Most hated Aqua, believe me, there was a reason I was getting dev builds right and left to update my sosumi theme for OS X at the time)

That is not true. Developers I talked (everything from literally Mac developer #3 (pre-GUI days) to now-successful student start-up) to didn't hate Aqua back then, nor do they hate it now.

.Neo · 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Right, but I was saying that the people here are more than average Mac users.

I wasn't claiming otherwise. Plus I fail to see how that relates to my post, but whatever.

Does anyone here knows if Time Machine allows you to set the exact storage location of the backups it creates? I always found it annoying that it just drops a folder on the main directory of my external drive. Especially because it use it for other purposes too.

TETENAL · Oct 22, 2007, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Ever notice there wasn't much talk about dashboard in 10.5?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html#dashboard

They added webclip and the US-only movie widget.

.Neo · Oct 22, 2007, 09:12 AM

I was a bit surprised to see that Apple did so little to improve Dashboard. Except for that one US-only (I really hate that attitude) widget they didn't improve or update a single other one.

Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by .Neo

I was a bit surprised to see that Apple did so little to improve Dashboard.

That's what I was referring to. The last update it acted like it was so revolutionary. This time around it doesn't even get mentioned that much.

Except for that one US-only (I really hate that attitude)

What attitude is that? Apple isn't doing to because they like the US customers better, or they are being xenophobic. There is not dastardly plan that is behind that happening.

And WHAT is with this purple crap with that blue?

*scratches eyes out*

While I am sure it will look fine in graphite.. dang that is obnoxious. (They should have added more blue tint to it)

Maybe something like

Which is very blue BTW.

TETENAL · Oct 22, 2007, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Apple isn't doing to because they like the US customers better.

Actually that's exactly why they are doing it.

.Neo · Oct 22, 2007, 11:50 AM

They're just lazy.

Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Actually that's exactly why they are doing it.

Proof?

BTW thanks for going back and editing the size of that picture....

kelso · Oct 22, 2007, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by .Neo

They're just lazy.

I don't really think you should call a company that probably makes the best looking OS lazy. They have spent a lot of time making the most user friendly and eye pleasing OS possible. I don't think people should complain over a widget not including people outside of the US.

Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

That is not true. Developers I talked (everything from literally Mac developer #3 (pre-GUI days) to now-successful student start-up) to didn't hate Aqua back then, nor do they hate it now.

Well the developers I talked to that were on IRC and even had their names in teh Finder window scroll about box before Steve steve'd those too, said that the devs he worked with was majority disappointed with Apple's decision to take out the "Platinum" look in OS X. I was getting builds right and left from these people during my Sosumi days, making minor adjustments to the GUI. Sometimes I'd only get the extras.rsrc. esp near the end of the run where they'd get a build or so done in a day. I can only say what was TOLD to me at the time. He told me a lot of devs was running my Sosumi theme right up to 10.1 (I soon after stopped updating it)

Originally Posted by kelso

They have spent a lot of time making the most user friendly and eye pleasing OS possible.

I wouldn't go that far...

mdc · Oct 22, 2007, 02:19 PM

In the 10.5 video tour they show an option for stacks. You can choose which method you want your stack to show as.

Does anyone have a screenshot to show what happens if you have a stack with a lot of icons in both fan and grid view?
I'm mainly wondering what happens if there are loads of icons in the fan (it is called fan correct?). Does another fan sit next to it, or does it just fan off the borders of your screen, or maybe scroll?

TETENAL · Oct 22, 2007, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by kelso

I don't think people should complain over a widget not including people outside of the US.

Outside the US Apple charges more and delivers less. Why shouldn't people complain about that? That doesn't make sense.

TETENAL · Oct 22, 2007, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Show me something that can visually show changes within a specified folder...not an entire volume snapshot.

Actually it appears as if Time Machine doesn't do this too:

Note that Time Machine only shows empty dummy windows in the past. Only once you actually "fly" to a certain point in time does the window display the actual content of that point in time. So while the interface looks fancy, the functionality is identical to that of "Backup" (which I posted a screenshot of) where you too have to click into a previous backup first to see the contents of that point in time.

You can observe the same behavior in Finder if you watch the Guided Tour by the way; it's just not as obvious as in iPhoto.

Horsepoo!!! · 08:58 PM

Except that it does show the changes as you flip back in time. The windows behind the first window wouldn't give enough visual feedback and would consume system resources just to display the top portion of the iPhoto or Finder window (which *could* be useful if your missing file was placed at the top of the window but otherwise would be useless).

edit: still haven't replied to this yet?

Kevin · 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Outside the US Apple charges more and delivers less. Why shouldn't people complain about that? That doesn't make sense.

I bought a Marshall amplifier from England that costs me more than Someone that lives in England would pay for it. It makes perfect sense. There is taxes and what not. Additional fees.

Not that that is what this thread is about... . lets try to stay on topic.

BTW I didn't make this thread a *Warning Large Images* thread for a reason. So it would be easier to read.
Would you please go back and resize the images that go against the image guidelines for me? I see you are hosting them on your own site, so it shouldn't be too hard. I asked you earlier and got no response.

Thanks.

kelso · Oct 22, 2007, 03:03 PM

I wouldn't go that far...

Why not? They are making something amazing. All people do is complain and don't see what is in front of them. I just hate it that so many people are OCD over such little things.

<sarcasm>OMG...they didn't upgrade dashboard!!!!</sarcasm> Dashboard and spotlight were the new focused things in Tiger. Time machine, spaces, ect are the focus of Leopard. Why constantly complain about something like dashboard when it is good the way it is.

Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by kelso

Why not? They are making something amazing. All people do is complain and don't see what is in front of them.

Or maybe people do see what is in front of them, and have valid complaints. Maybe you don't see what they are seeing?

I just hate it that so many people are OCD over such little things.

Well then you probably REALLY hate Steve then. He has one of the biggest OCDs in the CEO world. Not that expecting a GUI called Unified to actually be unified is having a OCD...

Why constantly complain about something like dashboard when it is good the way it is.

No one was constantly complaining about dashboard in here. No one.

TETENAL · Oct 22, 2007, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not that expecting a GUI called Unified to actually be unified is having a OCD...

Apple never called any GUI "Unified".

.Neo · Oct 22, 2007, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by kelso

I don't really think you should call a company that probably makes the best looking OS lazy. They have spent a lot of time making the most user friendly and eye pleasing OS possible. I don't think people should complain over a widget not including people outside of the US.

It's not like the Movie widget is the only widget that's US only, and it's not like Mac OS X Leopard is actually any cheaper here in The Netherlands than it is in the United States. Same goes for Dictionary which only contains the official dictionary of the English language (I believe Japanese in Leopard as well).

I wasn't being too serious about the widget, but I do hate the fact that Dictionary doesn't include official support for more languages.

Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Apple never called any GUI "Unified".

I am not going to go search and see what Apple is calling it right now (But they have stopped using the name Aqua to describe the GUI) But that is what others are calling it.

This article is funny though

Mac360 - Apple’s Mac OS X Is A GUI Mess. Who’s To Blame?

While most Mac users don’t care too much because OS X Tiger works so well, many Mac users have noticed and complained about the Graphical User Interface.

The GUI is total chaos, an inconsistent mess, a jumble of contradictions. Why? Because Apple CEO Steve Jobs is a sly fox.

Mac OS X Panther at version 10.3.9 may have been the best Mac OS ever. Solid. Secure. Dependable. Mac OS X Tiger at 10.4.3 seems to exceed that and adds many new features.

What both have in common is a clumsy user interface, a GUI mess that’s out of control. Or, is it? I thought so. So do others. I’m not so sure now.

Apple pundits have poked at the GUI confusion in Mac OS X for a couple of years. Once the hallmark of the Macintosh, and a key differentiator from Windows, the Mac’s user interface seems to have lost its way.

OS X Tiger is an inconsistent, jumbled weed of GUI experiences, a mish mash of look and feel that not only contradicts Apple’s own guidelines for developers, it’s a moving target, changing with each new version of the operating system.

Why? What’s going on at Apple? Why can’t Apple maintain a consistent look and feel on their own applications?

To be fair, the average Mac user probably doesn’t care. This confusion and discord that some Mac users see and complain about isn’t noticed or isn’t a problem with most Mac users; even with switchers from Windows.

A quick look at Tiger running on any new Mac will tell you that something’s wrong. There’s the brushed aluminum look of the Finder and Safari, both major applications used by most Mac users.

Don’t get me started on the Finder. After the mess it became in Classic Mac OS 9.x, we had high hopes for OS X. Instead, it’s even clunkier, though I prefer column view to open windows.

Apple does differentiate their ‘professional’ applications from mainstream apps. The whole look and feel of Final Cut Pro, SoundTrack, LiveType, DVD Studio, Logic Pro, and Aperture, is substantially different than the iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD look and feel.

At least that makes sense. But why Apple even ignores their own human interface guidelines in their own applications and operating system remains a mystery.

Until now. The more I think about what Steve Jobs is doing to move Apple ahead, the more I think the man is a very sly fox.

First, Apple can get away with a little user interface madness, both in the ‘name of change’ and because Mac users will tolerate it if everything just works. It usually does.

With OS X Leopard, gone will be the confusing look and feel of platinum, brushed aluminum, window panes, pop out panes, and ancient Finder. Why? Because Microsoft will have copied all they can by then, and the introduction of Leopard in early 2007 ups the ante. Again.

Regular Mac users will view the changes as, well, just more changes; necessary to advance the user experience. The rest of us will applaud Apple’s new unified GUI and ooh and ahh along with the rest of the world.

Note this was written before Leopard came out. I bet I can find a newer article.

And please TET again, I ask you to scale down the image ( What's the big deal, I don't really want to get a mod to have to remove it...)

besson3c · Oct 22, 2007, 03:26 PM

Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 03:32 PM

Please besson, stop being a troll if you can for once in your life.

Shock us all.

.Neo · Oct 22, 2007, 03:40 PM

IMO there wasn't anything wrong with Mac OS X 10.3 Panther's interface. The difference between Aqua and Brushed was actually a welcome change from having an uniform style. It always made sense to me.

It stopped making sense when Apple introduced two extra looks in Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger without updating the HIGs to properly explain their role.

I'm completely disregarding the GUI of Apple's Pro applications. Those are of an entirely different breed and shouldn't mixed in the debate wether an OS' interface and that of its default + third-party applications are consistent.

And platinum??? There isn't one default Mac OS X window style called that way.

0157988944 · Oct 22, 2007, 03:42 PM

Anyone think the brushed metal elements will disappear from Final Cut Pro 6?

voodoo · Oct 22, 2007, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

I bought a Marshall amplifier from England that costs me more than Someone that lives in England would pay for it. It makes perfect sense.

Yeah well we're talking about computers made in Taiwan that cost more in the EU than in the US.

V

lpkmckenna · Oct 22, 2007, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm guessing that you're trying to tell us that Aqua scrollers have been updated for resolution independence?

Anyways, a credible source tells us to expect some interface changes with the shipped Leopard disc:

Originally Posted by Daring Fireball

Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release.

Well, Kevin might be on to something after all....

0157988944 · Oct 22, 2007, 04:16 PM

Where does the daring fireball post come from?

lpkmckenna · Oct 22, 2007, 04:21 PM

Daring Fireball Linked List: October 2007

mdc · Oct 22, 2007, 05:54 PM

I read the Daring Fireball post today and it piqued my curiosity in the sense of "what does he know and how does he know it?"

It seems strange to type such a bombshell (in my opinion) and not go into any further detail, and also because if it is something that Apple wants to surprise everyone with, shouldn't it be under NDA?

CharlesS · Oct 22, 2007, 05:58 PM

I remember when 10.0 was nearing release and everyone was linking to this article at wincent.org that claimed there was a secret 5L89 build...

voodoo · Oct 22, 2007, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I remember when 10.0 was nearing release and everyone was linking to this article at wincent.org that claimed there was a secret 5L89 build...

There are only four days to go. Now why hasn't anyone uploaded the GM on a torrent somewhere? (no I am not asking for a link, if there was one I'd have already found it)

V

CharlesS · Oct 22, 2007, 06:29 PM

Two possibilities:

1. Apple's security has become really tight this time

2. The last build that was released to developers is the GM

I don't know which it is, but #2 wouldn't surprise me at all.

0157988944 · Oct 22, 2007, 06:30 PM

the GM is 9A581, the internal GM Candidiate Build.

TETENAL · Oct 22, 2007, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The last build that was released to developers is the GM

Even though the Frontrow icon is different to what Apple has published on their Leopard website? Unlikely.

CharlesS · Oct 22, 2007, 06:46 PM

Well, I said I don't know for sure which it is. Nothing is conclusive at this point. All we have are some rumor sites claiming there's a 9A581 build, which could be 10.5.0... or it could be a build of 10.5.1. Or it might not exist at all. We'll know in four days.

0157988944 · Oct 22, 2007, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

the GM is 9A581, the internal GM Candidiate Build.

...

Kevin · Oct 22, 2007, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by .Neo

And platinum??? There isn't one default Mac OS X window style called that way.

There was with Dp3

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Well, Kevin might be on to something after all....

Stop it, you're teasing.

And I thought they wouldn't change elements this soon? (I remember them doing so before, esp in the last few builds)

Still I don't have much hope of them doing what I expected them to.

Kevin · Oct 23, 2007, 06:17 AM

Been trying to find a screenshot of the new build... anyone?

Mithras · Oct 23, 2007, 09:16 AM

other than the ones on apple.com, i guess you mean?

.Neo · Oct 23, 2007, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

There was with Dp3

Let me rephrase myself specially for you: There never was a default window theme called platinum in any retail version of Mac OS X. This includes the retail versions of Mac OS X 10 Cheetah, 10.1 Puma, 10.2 Jaguar, 10.3 Panther, 10.4 Tiger and 10.5 Leopard. This does not include Mac OS 9 running in the Classic enviorment. So I don't know why that guy is bringing it up in the article you posted.

Kevin · Oct 23, 2007, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Mithras

other than the ones on apple.com, i guess you mean?

No..

Daring Fireball Linked List: October 2007

"Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release."

Meaning the public release, and the one you see on the page, which is the latest one shipped to ADC developers are two different OSs.

This might have something to do with Apple taking people to court over having GUI overhauls that looked like Aqua months before Aqua was out. They don't want that happening again.

Who knows. It could be a simple GUI change. It could be something bigger.

all we know is the last ADC build that was sent out, was not the last time they updated the GUI.
So what you see in the screenshots on the site, aren't what you are buying. Apple better be careful doing this.

Originally Posted by .Neo

Let me rephrase myself specially for you:

Why especially for me?

There never was a window theme called platinum in any retail version of Mac OS X.

Don't recall I or anyone else saying there was...

So I don't know why that guy is bringing it up in the article you posted.

Because there was one in the DP3 version he was testing. You could switch from Aqua, to Platinum. In DP4 Steve killed this feature off. He really wanted to push Aqua as THE GUI. And didn't want people reverting to Platinum.

Kevin · Oct 23, 2007, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by voodoo

There are only four days to go. Now why hasn't anyone uploaded the GM on a torrent somewhere? (no I am not asking for a link, if there was one I'd have already found it)

V

Yeah.. in EVERY OTHER MacOS I have had NO PROBLEM whatsoever finding the GM atleast a week before it's came out. It's nowhere to be found. No one has it. At least outside of Apple.

Kevin · Oct 23, 2007, 10:32 AM

Another

Mac Rumors: Mac OS X Leopard 10.5 GM Candidate Build (9A581)

Apple had expected to declare their upcoming Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard Gold Master this week. "Gold Master" status is given the final shipping version of the software which is sent to duplicators for distribution.

Based on our sources, Apple had not quite reached that goal, but today released an internal "GM candidate build" which could represent the final version of Mac OS X Leopard, if no other issues are found.

Another

"Just as I predicted, Consumers will get Leopard GM before ADC members, this is to deter the immediate distribution over the net. "

According to our sources, Apple did indeed settle on the last Gold Master candidate (Build 9A581) as the final retail version of Leopard. Despite some early claims that the "Gold Master" of Leopard had been leaked to the internet, all of these claimed leaks appear to be false. Apple has kept the distribution of Leopard Gold Master internal and is not even planning on releasing the Gold Master to developers until it makes its way into consumers hands.

The Build number for the latest GM candidate is said to be 9A581.

No Dev I know has such a build. (That isn't part of Apple) And no one from Apple that I know of is talking about it. All I get is "It will be out when you get it."

Torrents - No Leopard for you. Apple settles on 9A581 GM - InsanelyMac Forum

So the things I was told didn't happen, does. I guess Apple is doing things a bit differently this time around for some reason.

Big Mac · Oct 23, 2007, 10:33 AM

The plot thins.

.Neo · Oct 23, 2007, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Don't recall I or anyone else saying there was...

Because there was one in the DP3 version he was testing. You could switch from Aqua, to Platinum. In DP4 Steve killed this feature off. He really wanted to push Aqua as THE GUI. And didn't want people reverting to Platinum.

Straight from your article:

"With OS X Leopard, gone will be the confusing look and feel of platinum, brushed aluminum, window panes, pop out panes, and ancient Finder."

What confusing look of platinum? It never made it in any retail version of Mac OS X. So why on Earth would he bring that up?

Kevin · Oct 23, 2007, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The plot thins.

The plot just gets convoluted more.

Well at least those that claimed that Apple doesn't change such elements at the last minute can rest assured that Apple does indeed do it. I'd just like to know what they have changed.

Originally Posted by .Neo

Straight from your article:

"With OS X Leopard, gone will be the confusing look and feel of platinum, brushed aluminum, window panes, pop out panes, and ancient Finder."

What confusing look of platinum? It never made it in any retail version of Mac OS X. So why on Earth would he bring that up?

We were talking about different articles. And yes Platinum has. Ever used Classic? One of the first complaints about Classic and Aqua was, they didn't match. So Classic apps ran would LOOK classic. And not like OS X.

.Neo · Oct 23, 2007, 10:57 AM

How is that confusing? Those applications aren't Mac OS X applications and obviously they won't magically convert to spot a Quartz rendered picture perfect Aqua interface. It isn't that much different from running Windows XP applications on the Mac OS X desktop using VMware Fusion or Parallels: Those will still spot Luna or Windows Classic as well. They aren't an actual part of Mac OS X, nor are applications in the Classic environment. They rely for the full 100% on Mac OS 9 frameworks.

Platinum never was an official part of any retail Mac OS X release, so I fail to see why anyone would bring it up in an article dating from 2005.

TETENAL · Oct 23, 2007, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by .Neo

What confusing look of platinum? It never made it in any retail version of Mac OS X. So why on Earth would he bring that up?

Because Classic applications still had the Platinum look. Classic is gone under Leopard and therefore so is the Platinum look.

.Neo · Oct 23, 2007, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Because Classic applications still had the Platinum look. Classic is gone under Leopard and therefore so is the Platinum look.

Reading his article carefully I think he's talking about the Unified title/toolbar look... Which would make more sense than complaining about some Mac OS 9 layer.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The plot just gets convoluted more.

Well at least those that claimed that Apple doesn't change such elements at the last minute can rest assured that Apple does indeed do it. I'd just like to know what they have changed.

Or they just did some bugfixes.