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Repeal of Obamacare (Page 4)
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 9, 2017, 05:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You can go back and forth with that kind of argument forever, but what it boils down to is that in the six years that so many of the GOP spent so much time campaigning against a single issue, they somehow forgot to come up with an actual solution.
Who was going to pay for the studies and research necessary? While it would be noble for legislators to pay for that out of pocket, I'm not deluded enough to think they'd do it.

It seems odd to see you complain about hasty, poorly thought-out legislation.
That makes no sense at all. If it was up to me new legislation would be very rare and vetted half to death.
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Feb 9, 2017, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Who was going to pay for the studies and research necessary? While it would be noble for legislators to pay for that out of pocket, I'm not deluded enough to think they'd do it.
So coming up with policies is no longer the job of political parties? Have you had a stroke or something?
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Feb 9, 2017, 09:56 AM
 
So, the Republicans should have gone through all the effort to come up with an ACA replacement, and then put it in a lock box for four years while Hillary was President?
     
Laminar
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Feb 9, 2017, 11:01 AM
 
Why lock it up?

Look what we have! It provides coverage to as many or more people, costs less, and fill the vast holes in Obamacare! Let's ignore partisan politics and come together to repeal Obamacare and implement this obviously superior plan!
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, the Republicans should have gone through all the effort to come up with an ACA replacement, and then put it in a lock box for four years while Hillary was President?
Given that the ACA has razor thin support, and a good chunk of people would like to see it fixed/changed, I would think running with a list of improvements or a better version would be popular and beneficial for the GOP, and detrimental to the Dems if they obstructed it.
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 04:05 PM
 
Bingo.

The big question is why/how the GOP are able to be so awful and so useless and the voters reward them with votes. The Dems tend to fail due to obvious GOP sabotage and they get punished for it. WTF is wrong with American voters?
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Feb 9, 2017, 04:45 PM
 
If it was a good plan, why hide the light under the bushel?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 9, 2017, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, the Republicans should have gone through all the effort to come up with an ACA replacement, and then put it in a lock box for four years while Hillary was President?
Obviously. Did you have a stroke too?
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Feb 9, 2017, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, the Republicans should have gone through all the effort to come up with an ACA replacement, and then put it in a lock box for four years while Hillary was President?
I think this question is quite telling, because I think there is some truth to it: the GOP wouldn't have tried anything in four years to fix the ACA if Clinton were President. It's still bad for Americans, though.
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Feb 9, 2017, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If it was a good plan, why hide the light under the bushel?
Of course they didn't have a plan, but then you don't need to have something ready to go (because such a thing would be seriously expensive and would require an appropriation bill, which we know Obama or Hillary wouldn't sign off on), just to realize that what you currently have now is shit.
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Feb 9, 2017, 11:05 PM
 
If they had a good plan, it would have made them heroes to everyone. A true crossing of the aisle, come together, yahoo, you fixed healthcare, let's have a toast.

The dog ate their homework.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 09:18 AM
 
They don't have a plan because they really don't care. The status quo was fine for them. Meanwhile Paul Ryan has been issuing fantasy budgets for years.
     
Laminar
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Feb 10, 2017, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
would require an appropriation bill,
[citation needed]
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 10:58 AM
 
The ACA grants the HHS Sec. "broad authority to issue rules." Sec Price can make changes (like rescinding the contraceptive mandate) while a bill works its way through Congress.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 10, 2017, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
[citation needed]
You can't spend $$ in gov't without an appropriation bill.

https://www.senate.gov/CRSpubs/8013e...4915d498a6.pdf
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Laminar
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Feb 10, 2017, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You can't spend $$ in gov't without an appropriation bill.

https://www.senate.gov/CRSpubs/8013e...4915d498a6.pdf
I get the impression that you're just making stuff up. Are you suggesting that every time a congressperson creates a piece of legislation, they've done so after asking the president to include an appropriation in the budget?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 11, 2017, 03:11 AM
 
I get the impression you still think a whole new national Healthcare system can be planned out over coffee and donuts.

It would take 1000s of man hours and 10s (if not 100s) of millions of $$$ in research, with an exploratory committee of not just legislators, but also MDs, health care administrators, and insurance managers (FYI, none of them will work for free).
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Feb 11, 2017, 08:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I get the impression you still think a whole new national Healthcare system can be planned out over coffee and donuts.

It would take 1000s of man hours and 10s (if not 100s) of millions of $$$ in research, with an exploratory committee of not just legislators, but also MDs, health care administrators, and insurance managers (FYI, none of them will work for free).
As has been pointed out, they've had six years. Perhaps this would have been a better use for all the money they wasted on Benghazi hearings?
Failing that they could have used some of the $200m they got from DeVos and her family.
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Feb 11, 2017, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I get the impression you still think a whole new national Healthcare system can be planned out over coffee and donuts.

It would take 1000s of man hours and 10s (if not 100s) of millions of $$$ in research, with an exploratory committee of not just legislators, but also MDs, health care administrators, and insurance managers (FYI, none of them will work for free).
Weren't you one of those people complaining about the complexity of the ACA? If it requires this effort it is going to be complex, particularly with insurance involved.

There are plenty lobby groups with supposed experts in these areas who would have been happy to have donated their time. 6 years. Why were they trying to get the ACA repealed without a replacement ready?
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
As has been pointed out, they've had six years. Perhaps this would have been a better use for all the money they wasted on Benghazi hearings?
Failing that they could have used some of the $200m they got from DeVos and her family.
You think they can use the judicial budget for an exploratory commission?
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Feb 11, 2017, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You think they can use the judicial budget for an exploratory commission?
I think the lack of oversight that allowed them to waste it on a partisan witch hunt would equally have allowed them to spend it on hookers. Or Lego.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Feb 12, 2017, 06:56 AM
 
I'm sure the insurance companies and religious groups would have paid lots of money to support research on a plan that go their way. Would/could/did they?
     
Laminar
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Feb 13, 2017, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I get the impression you still think a whole new national Healthcare system can be planned out over coffee and donuts.

It would take 1000s of man hours and 10s (if not 100s) of millions of $$$ in research, with an exploratory committee of not just legislators, but also MDs, health care administrators, and insurance managers (FYI, none of them will work for free).
Yes, it's called creating legislation. It's what lawmakers do. But it turns out it's way easier to just complain than it is to solve the problem.

It's pretty clear that you're just making stuff up here, you don't actually know how the process works. Show me someone in the system actually making these same claims and I'll listen.
     
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Feb 13, 2017, 02:13 PM
 
Why not let Sec Price use the broad authority granted to the HHS sec to remold the ACA while one of the several replacement plans is being agreed on?
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Feb 13, 2017, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Why not let Sec Price use the broad authority granted to the HHS sec to remold the ACA while one of the several replacement plans is being agreed on?
Remold how and to what extent? Without 60 votes, the GOP can only remove funding, but all the regulations are left in place. And if you stop funding but still legally mandate spending, you'll cause a shitshow. Even if Price has an idea, he would still need to get the GOP in both chambers on board. There is no easy or quick fix here.
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Feb 13, 2017, 11:51 PM
 
Reports say Freedom Caucus won't settle for anything less than a 2015 repeal, which I assume means near total. That should complicate matters nicely.
     
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Feb 14, 2017, 12:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yes, it's called creating legislation. It's what lawmakers do. But it turns out it's way easier to just complain than it is to solve the problem.

It's pretty clear that you're just making stuff up here, you don't actually know how the process works. Show me someone in the system actually making these same claims and I'll listen.
Creating legislation without any exploration or study? Isn't this how we got in this shit in the first place? "We need to pass it to know what's in it!" It's pretty clear you're lost and in over your head, like the rest of the Left.
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Feb 14, 2017, 12:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Reports say Freedom Caucus won't settle for anything less than a 2015 repeal, which I assume means near total. That should complicate matters nicely.
Add to that Trump who is anything but consistent, but seems to favor certain main points of the ACA (e. g. the pre-existing conditions clause).
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Feb 14, 2017, 09:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Creating legislation without any exploration or study?
Pardon me while I choke on all of the words you just shoved into my mouth.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 14, 2017, 02:30 PM
 
https://mobile.twitter.com/cimarcos/...45321087959042

Rep. Labrador (R-ID): "If we’re just going to replace Obamacare with Obamacare-lite..were we just against it because it was proposed by Ds?"
Yes.
     
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Feb 14, 2017, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Add to that Trump who is anything but consistent, but seems to favor certain main points of the ACA (e. g. the pre-existing conditions clause).
If they want to keep pre-existing conditions clause and the over 18 clause, then it requires that everyone pays into the system. This can be either through a mandatory tax on everyone or a non-participatory fine like it is now. Republican lawmakers are finding this out now, as I'm certain they're unable to find any credible economist who would say otherwise.
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Feb 16, 2017, 02:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Pardon me while I choke on all of the words you just shoved into my mouth.
Good.
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Feb 16, 2017, 03:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
If they want to keep pre-existing conditions clause and the over 18 clause, then it requires that everyone pays into the system. This can be either through a mandatory tax on everyone or a non-participatory fine like it is now. Republican lawmakers are finding this out now, as I'm certain they're unable to find any credible economist who would say otherwise.
Bingo. And the other thing is that having health care is immensely popular.
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Feb 24, 2017, 10:16 AM
 
“If the numbers drop, I would say that’s a good thing, because we’ve restored personal liberty in this country.”
How the hell can anyone say this with a straight face?
     
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Feb 24, 2017, 11:47 AM
 
     
Laminar
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Feb 24, 2017, 03:03 PM
 
Isn't one of the main complaints about Obamacare that many people are falling into that crack where they make too much for assistance but not enough to afford the premiums? And won't shrinking the subsidies reduce assistance available and increase premiums?
     
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Feb 24, 2017, 05:25 PM
 
Sounds like a solution where you make the poor pay more. Those solutions tend not to work on account of the poor having little money.
     
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Feb 24, 2017, 08:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
How the hell can anyone say this with a straight face?
Probably the same way Nancy "Pass it to see what's in it" Pelosi said that when the ACA was forced through Congress. That would be my guess.
     
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Feb 24, 2017, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Isn't one of the main complaints about Obamacare that many people are falling into that crack where they make too much for assistance but not enough to afford the premiums? And won't shrinking the subsidies reduce assistance available and increase premiums?
The biggest complaint I am familiar with (I work in hospitals, btw) is that Obamacare doesn't do anything to address the real problem with the industry, which is high costs (where the ACA only addresses who pays).
     
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Feb 24, 2017, 08:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
The biggest complaint I am familiar with (I work in hospitals, btw) is that Obamacare doesn't do anything to address the real problem with the industry, which is high costs (where the ACA only addresses who pays).
I thought it did help with that by allowing hospitals or health authorities (I'm not sure what the relevant organisational units are called) to band together and purchase supplies in bulk? Not sure where I read that, it was ages ago.
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Feb 25, 2017, 09:57 AM
 
"Supplies" aren't the main cost, at all.
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Feb 25, 2017, 10:03 AM
 
The layers of administration, all dealing with the 2200 pages of regulations and such takes a big chunk.
     
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Feb 25, 2017, 10:39 AM
 
Not to mention health care pros' salaries increasing, YOY, at >40% higher than the national average.
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Feb 25, 2017, 04:39 PM
 
How can a government program reduce staffing costs without huge subsidies? The GOP isn't going to stand for that.

Having glanced at a few American medical bills online it seems like there is a culture similar to the automotive repair industry where the contractor who knows an insurance company is paying jacks prices through the roof. thousands or tens of thousands for a scan seems extortionate.

Surprised no-one has outsourced scan based diagnoses to India yet.
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Feb 27, 2017, 10:35 AM
 
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gops-ne...ort-1488154291

Looks like they realized they're not gonna be able to sell people on their replacement.
     
Laminar
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Feb 27, 2017, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Not to mention health care pros' salaries increasing, YOY, at >40% higher than the national average.
I assume you can cite numbers newer than these?

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
The biggest complaint I am familiar with (I work in hospitals, btw) is that Obamacare doesn't do anything to address the real problem with the industry, which is high costs (where the ACA only addresses who pays).
Is there a solution to this that doesn't involve single payer? Note that I don't count telling someone with a sick kid to "shop around and negotiate for the best price" as a solution.
     
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Feb 27, 2017, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Is there a solution to this that doesn't involve single payer? Note that I don't count telling someone with a sick kid to "shop around and negotiate for the best price" as a solution.
The whole shopping around thing is a bit comical. Set aside the whole sick kid thing, and just think abut basic healthcare. Medical procedures are one of those things that are only acceptable as free, or reassuringly expensive. Laser eye surgery for free? Thanks National Healthcare System! Laser eye surgery for $2500? Thank goodness I can afford the best! Laser eye surgery for $99 with a coupon? Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

When it's your life and well being, finding a bargain should not factor in.
     
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Feb 27, 2017, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
The whole shopping around thing is a bit comical. Set aside the whole sick kid thing, and just think abut basic healthcare. Medical procedures are one of those things that are only acceptable as free, or reassuringly expensive. Laser eye surgery for free? Thanks National Healthcare System! Laser eye surgery for $2500? Thank goodness I can afford the best! Laser eye surgery for $99 with a coupon? Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

When it's your life and well being, finding a bargain should not factor in.
There are systems like the German one where you have universal health care without having the state deal with the “insurance” part. Nevertheless, the basis is very similar to the NHS but more decentralized and works like the rain forest: what society pays in it gets out. Your insurance rate doesn't depend on anything but your salary, and employers pay half. This way there is a direct correlation between what society can afford (roughly measured by GDP) and the level of care you receive. The idea of people “shopping for insurance” makes no sense to me: people will tend to cheap out because they really can't afford anything better or because of their natural instincts. They will forgo preventive medical examinations, something that ends up costing everyone a lot more and in many cases also lives. And there are stages-of-live where medical care simply is more expensive, e. g. birth and pregnancy.

Recently, a French scientist I know who works at a prominent American university had a heart attack. And even he is struggling to get good care (he spoke of ~6 months that his doctors told him to take off work), and it looks as if he has to return to France for treatment! This is utterly and completely insane.
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Feb 27, 2017, 11:33 PM
 
Scott Walker, Other Governors Wary of Medicaid Cuts in Obamacare Repeal

Scott Walker and Sam Brownback of all people, are against repealing the medicaid expansion. It's surreal.
     
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Mar 1, 2017, 04:36 PM
 
More republicans coming out for full repeal. I have no idea what the hell will happen
     
 
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