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The Paris Climate Disagreement
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The Final Dakar
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Jun 2, 2017, 02:06 PM
 
Guess it needed its own thread.

I'm flummoxed as to why the administration refuses to give its opinion on whether climate change is real.
     
reader50
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Jun 2, 2017, 02:11 PM
 
Desire not to be ridiculed? This will go well, especially as we're beginning a nice hot summer.
     
BadKosh
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Jun 2, 2017, 02:16 PM
 
Not too hot in the DC area so far, After a very mild winter.
Sorry, no redistribution of OUR wealth.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 2, 2017, 02:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Desire not to be ridiculed? This will go well, especially as we're beginning a nice hot summer.
Possibly but silence only works when no one notices. Refusing to answer the question is gutless.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 2, 2017, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Not too hot in the DC area so far, After a very mild winter.
Sorry, no redistribution of OUR wealth.
A wild climate scientist appears
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 2, 2017, 02:46 PM
 
When everyone except Nicaragua and Syria joins a global agreement, surely there must be something positive in there. Now we are in the corner with Nicaragua and Syria... not much to chat about...

We are going to lose out on the technology jobs and money.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 2, 2017, 03:23 PM
 
Nicaragua passed because the agreement wasn't stringent enough
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 2, 2017, 03:25 PM
 
Trump misquotes MIT:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...ng_Most_Viewed

“The relevant MIT researchers believe that the Paris agreement is an unprecedented and vital effort by nearly 200 countries to respond to the urgent threat of global climate change,” MIT said in a statement Thursday evening.

John Sterman, an MIT researcher who works to analyze climate change scenarios, and Andrew Jones, a researcher with the think tank Climate Interactive, told the Washington Post that their analysis shows that the current country level pledges under the Paris agreement would reduce the planet’s warming by the year 2100 down from 4.2 degrees Celsius (7.56 degrees Fahreheit) to 3.3 degrees Celsius (5.94 degrees Fahrenheit), or nearly a full degree.

The co-founder of the MIT program on climate change told The Associated Press that the administration was citing an outdated report, taken out of context. Jake Jacoby said the actual global impact of meeting targets under the Paris accord would be to curb rising temperatures by 1 degree Celsius (or 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit).

‘‘They found a number that made the point they want to make,’’ Jacoby said. ‘‘It’s kind of a debate trick.’’
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 2, 2017, 03:26 PM
 
Anyway this isn't about climate change for most of the administration. It's a simple **** you to the world, a show of autonomy through blatant self interest.
     
subego
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Jun 2, 2017, 09:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm flummoxed as to why the administration refuses to give its opinion on whether climate change is real.
This administration doesn't hold singular opinions.

I'm not saying that as snark, or taking a shot. It's meant purely as a neutral observation.
     
OAW
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Jun 3, 2017, 12:16 AM
 
Can we keep it real here? This ain't about Trump per se. This is about the GOP which prioritizes quarterly earnings reports above everything else.

OAW
     
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Jun 3, 2017, 06:13 AM
 
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 3, 2017, 10:04 AM
 
The coal industry is scared of big bad solar. If the coal industry was smart, they'd be the ones diversifying and finding alternate energy sources.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 3, 2017, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm flummoxed as to why the administration refuses to give its opinion on whether climate change is real.
Maybe being paid to not say something which is true is better than being paid to say something thats true isn't.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
el chupacabra
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Jun 4, 2017, 12:58 PM
 
The agreement didn't do anything for climate change. It just caused our industries to move factories over seas where regulations were less stringent. Moving pollution centers from one side of the world to another isn't lowering global carbon output. Actually the treaty probably made climate change worse - since it forces us to use more fuel to ship parts/products back and forth from overseas, when they could've just been built right here in the first place.
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el chupacabra
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Jun 4, 2017, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
When everyone except Nicaragua and Syria joins a global agreement, surely there must be something positive in there.
Correct, such as the right for other countries to accept US subsidies out of the goodness of their hearts.

Now we are in the corner with Nicaragua and Syria... not much to chat about...

We are going to lose out on the technology jobs and money.
We'll also lose out on the requirement to spend billions if not trillions subsidizing other nations' industrialization.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 4, 2017, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The agreement didn't do anything for climate change. It just caused our industries to move factories over seas where regulations were less stringent. Moving pollution centers from one side of the world to another isn't lowering global carbon output. Actually the treaty probably made climate change worse - since it forces us to use more fuel to ship parts/products back and forth from overseas, when they could've just been built right here in the first place.
I haven't bothered to check or anything, but I'm pretty sure every word of this is garbage.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 4, 2017, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I haven't bothered to check or anything, but I'm pretty sure every word of this is garbage.
It's logical, so I can see how you'd disagree with it.
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The Final Shortcut
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Jun 4, 2017, 07:53 PM
 
It does indicate of fundamental misunderstanding of what the Paris agreement actually is and how it operates.

But let's not let that get in the way of a good rant on industries moving factories overseas, which of course has everything to do with the Paris agreement and nothing to do with fat, comfortable American citizens who won't work for the hourly wage that would allow the factory to produce its products at the dirt-cheap price that said American demands to pay for it.
     
el chupacabra
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Jun 4, 2017, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
It does indicate of fundamental misunderstanding of what the Paris agreement actually is and how it operates.

But let's not let that get in the way of a good rant on industries moving factories overseas, which of course has everything to do with the Paris agreement and nothing to do with fat, comfortable American citizens who won't work for the hourly wage that would allow the factory to produce its products at the dirt-cheap price that said American demands to pay for it.
I can see the misunderstandings of what it is by most comments in this thread. You're right though wages are definitely one major factor in outsourcing. Which is a great argument for why Trump should do away with minimum wage laws. It would take a while for people to get used to and for the economy to adjust, but over time we can actually lower assembly line wages in this country back to what they should be; it desperately needs to happen.
     
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Jun 4, 2017, 09:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I can see the misunderstandings of what it is by most comments in this thread. You're right though wages are definitely one major factor in outsourcing. Which is a great argument for why Trump should do away with minimum wage laws. It would take a while for people to get used to and for the economy to adjust, but over time we can actually lower assembly line wages in this country back to what they should be; it desperately needs to happen.
Apples and bowling balls: this has nothing to do with climate change and is all about being able to use cheaper labor in other countries. Lowering wages won't help, because that will significantly diminish local consumption. Aspiring to keep an old system on life support is quite useless, most types of manufacturing are simply no longer competitive in industrialized nations with high wages.
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The Final Shortcut
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Jun 4, 2017, 10:19 PM
 
Yeah. It's breathtakingly out of touch to suggest that removing minimum-wage laws is going to help solve this problem in any way, shape or form. What, as though there's a hidden class of American people looking to start working for $5 an hour?

(I mean, maybe.......but let's not get into illegal immigration, hmmm? Haha.)
     
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Jun 4, 2017, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's logical, so I can see how you'd disagree with it.
How is relocating factories to lower emissions logical?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 5, 2017, 07:19 AM
 
How are you not seeing their MO?
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BadKosh
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Jun 5, 2017, 07:36 AM
 
Hell, they can't prove any of it. None of the "Sky is falling" predictions have come true and none of the computer models work, which points to the fact they really DON'T understand how the climate works. What does the money do? Make the sun burn less hot?
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 5, 2017, 08:39 AM
 
I mean.....the models work really well. But let's not stop facts from you trotting out the same tired, baseless argument for the 100th time.
     
besson3c
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Jun 5, 2017, 08:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
I mean.....the models work really well. But let's not stop facts from you trotting out the same tired, baseless argument for the 100th time.
I guess you didn't get the memo that Badkosh is smarter than 97% (or whatever) of climate scientists that agree about global warming.
     
BadKosh
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Jun 5, 2017, 09:04 AM
 
Sorry but until evidence can be proven to be evidence, you still have nothing but exaggerations and BS. Tampering with data and excluding data that doesn't match the narrative doesn't make the fiction into science. It has never been anything but redistribution of wealth. A plan liberal American haters just love.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 5, 2017, 09:05 AM
 
I mean, I didn't n't care about who agrees with whom, either. I just know that people have done empirical studies about the accuracy of published climate models over the years and they really have held up pretty well.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 5, 2017, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Sorry but until evidence can be proven to be evidence, you still have nothing but exaggerations and BS. Tampering with data and excluding data that doesn't match the narrative doesn't make the fiction into science. It has never been anything but redistribution of wealth. A plan liberal American haters just love.
Yeah, I mean....not that this will at all change your opinion or even stop you from making the exact same statement in a couple months, but I guess I have to provide this now.

Ars Technica - Once more with feeling: Climate models don’t exaggerate warming
If the climate sensitivity research run-around has your head spinning, the key thing to remember is that our estimates really haven’t changed much over time. The range of 1.5-4.5 degrees Celsius for a doubling of CO2 described as likely in the 5th IPCC report in 2013 is the same range given in the 1979 National Research Council report that coined the technical definition of equilibrium climate sensitivity (and put our best estimate at 3.0 degrees Celsius). Confidence has obviously increased with more research, and a radical re-write of this value, which is critical to the future of Earth’s climate, is pretty unlikely at this point.
     
besson3c
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Jun 5, 2017, 11:15 AM
 
Why is global warming a left/right issue anyway?

Badkosh, scientific facts exist as humanity's best means it has ever had to explain reality whether or not you are comfortable with how reality makes you feel.
( Last edited by besson3c; Jun 5, 2017 at 11:47 AM. )
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 5, 2017, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why is global warming a left/right issue anyway?

Badkosh, scientific facts exist as humanity's best means it has ever had to explain reality whether or not you are comfortable with how they make you feel.
Profits
     
besson3c
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Jun 5, 2017, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Profits
Makes sense to me, but I have to wonder when the remaining conservatives not profiting will come to the same conclusions? It's been years and years and years of debating this stuff, the debate should have been over a long time ago.
     
BadKosh
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Jun 5, 2017, 01:12 PM
 
So where are those rising oceans and other things we have been warned about for over 20 years?
     
Chongo
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Jun 5, 2017, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So where are those rising oceans and other things we have been warned about for over 20 years?
Or the polar caps that are supposed to gone.
https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard...record-maximum
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...er-than-losses
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reader50
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Jun 5, 2017, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So where are those rising oceans and other things we have been warned about for over 20 years?
Rising slowly, just as predicted. Ask the residents of Miami. Increasing public works are going into holding back the tide. They may need dikes.

The increasing incidence of wilder weather swings are with us too. No single storm can be blamed on global warming, but the higher incidence can be.

Then there's all the glaciers vanishing from Glacier National Park. We may have to rename the park.
     
besson3c
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Jun 5, 2017, 02:21 PM
 
I think at this point maybe we should just shut down idiots like Chongo and Badkosh who disbelieve vast scientific consensus by saying "you don't get to disagree".

Harsh? Maybe... Not productive? Perhaps... But maybe we should just not treat this lunacy seriously the same way that we don't take people seriously who believe the world is flat.

Get with the ****ing program, guys. It's been years, the debate is over.
     
Chongo
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Jun 5, 2017, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think at this point maybe we should just shut down idiots like Chongo and Badkosh who disbelieve vast scientific consensus by saying "you don't get to disagree".

Harsh? Maybe... Not productive? Perhaps... But maybe we should just not treat this lunacy seriously the same way that we don't take people seriously who believe the world is flat.

Get with the ****ing program, guys. It's been years, the debate is over.
You do realize there have been numerous warming and cooling periods? There was the medieval warming period followed by the "little ice age" What were the man made causes for the medieval warming? Did the they overcompensate and cause the little ice age?

When I was in 8th grade back in the mid 70's they were teaching we were headed to the next ice age. There was "overwhelming scientific consensus" then as well.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Jun 5, 2017, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You do realize there have been numerous warming and cooling periods? There was the medieval warming period followed by the "little ice age" What were the man made causes for the medieval warming? Did the they overcompensate and cause the little ice age?

When I was in 8th grade back in the mid 70's they were teaching we were headed to the next ice age. There was "overwhelming scientific consensus" then as well.

Please make the case as to why you know better than what is clearly the vast majority of climate scientists, otherwise STFU.
     
subego
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Jun 5, 2017, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think at this point maybe we should just shut down idiots like Chongo and Badkosh who disbelieve vast scientific consensus by saying "you don't get to disagree".

Harsh? Maybe... Not productive? Perhaps... But maybe we should just not treat this lunacy seriously the same way that we don't take people seriously who believe the world is flat.

Get with the ****ing program, guys. It's been years, the debate is over.
Silencing people is repellent.
     
Chongo
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Jun 5, 2017, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Please make the case as to why you know better than what is clearly the vast majority of climate scientists, otherwise STFU.
You mean the same ones that were telling us in the 70's we were heading to the next ice age' or was the press doing fake news then as well?. This was the narrative that was all over the press at the time. This was what we were being taught as well. Need I repost the episode of Nimoy's "In Search of... The Next Ice Age"
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andi*pandi
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Jun 5, 2017, 03:33 PM
 
The glaciers would like a word.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 5, 2017, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
1. You do realize there have been numerous warming and cooling periods? 2. There was the medieval warming period followed by the "little ice age" 3. What were the man made causes for the medieval warming? 4. Did the they overcompensate and cause the little ice age?

5. When I was in 8th grade back in the mid 70's they were teaching we were headed to the next ice age. 6. There was "overwhelming scientific consensus" then as well.

1. Yes
2. Yes - although the MWP was still colder than today
3. MWP was mostly caused by non-man-made factors which have been identified but are not present today to explain current warming
4. Possibly somewhat human-related - since a huge number of us died off around this time - bit LIA was mostly caused by non-man-made factors which have been identifieD, many of which relate to the inverse of MWP factors.
5. When you were in school in the 1970s, they also taught you that AIDs was a dirty disease sent to punish the homosexuals. And lots of other nonsense, too. We've all learned a lot and moved on. You should too.
6. No, there wasn't. That's totally false.


I know this isn't a comprehensive response. But I also know that a) you wouldn't read a substantive response anyway; and b) if you did read it, you'd only ignore it and repeat the same nonsense the next time. So I'll leave it at this.
     
Chongo
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Jun 5, 2017, 03:53 PM
 
Ehhhhh AIDS wasn't diagnosed until the 1980's. You can't teach about what hasn't been discovered. Super Gonorrhea wasn't on the radar either.

Even ars techica posted an article that said although there were studies claiming warming and cooling, the press was pushing global cooling.
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besson3c
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Jun 5, 2017, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Silencing people is repellent.
I don't even care anymore, they are hopeless causes at this point, and I think we'd be better off if we just chastised them rather than giving them any possible validation and attention.

We spent years and years hearing them out and entertaining this debate, and we are still here. Patience has not worked, maybe abuse will.
     
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
the press was pushing global cooling.
So you've moved from "overwhelming scientific consensus", to the press were pushing. Probably best to roll over on this one.

In the 1970 studies were unsure if man made changes to the atmosphere would cause global warming or cooling. The press came down on the more media friendly New Ice Age. In the meantime "overwhelming scientific consensus" moved, in the light of further studies towards warming.
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
So you've moved from "overwhelming scientific consensus", to the press were pushing. Probably best to roll over on this one.

In the 1970 studies were unsure if man made changes to the atmosphere would cause global warming or cooling. The press came down on the more media friendly New Ice Age. In the meantime "overwhelming scientific consensus" moved, in the light of further studies towards warming.
No, the "overwhelming consensus" at the time we were being taught that there was an ice age coming, and the press was going with it. We were taught that the sunlight/heat was being reflected back into to space by all the car exhaust from LA and the other big cities.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
No, the "overwhelming consensus" at the time we were being taught that there was an ice age coming, and the press was going with it. We were taught that the sunlight/heat was being reflected back into to space by all the car exhaust from LA and the other big cities.
Nope
http://physicstoday.scitation.org/do...T.5.8199/full/

and again. Mythbusting via actual review of published material

https://skepticalscience.com/ice-age...termediate.htm

and again:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/20...david-kirtley/


stop now
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't even care anymore, they are hopeless causes at this point, and I think we'd be better off if we just chastised them rather than giving them any possible validation and attention.

We spent years and years hearing them out and entertaining this debate, and we are still here. Patience has not worked, maybe abuse will.
This is how it works:
Pseudo science peddler: Look 1,2,3,4

Evidenced based replies: sigh. No, 1,,2,3,4

PSP: Ah but 5,6,7,8
EBR: sigh, no 5,6,7,8

etc

PSP: Ah but 113,346
EBR: I have a life
PSP: I WIN! Your evidence refuted ALL my other points but this one point made after I drowned you in nonsense WINS TEH EVERYTHING!
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Chongo
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Jun 5, 2017, 05:53 PM
 
I can't change what we were taught in school. (Madison #2, Madison school district #38, Phoenix AZ)
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