[boots]

Originally Posted by Corpse of Chewbacca

Some quotes to see how the world is reacting:


"Hamas won," said Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel. "Hamas is surely not a democratic movement. Its ideas are surely not humanistic ideas.

"What do we do now?"
==================
"It is a very, very, very bad result," Italian news agencies quoted Premier Silvio Berlusconi as saying.
==================
"What a sad, sad day." -Corpse of Chewbacca
==================

Well, yeah. They even shocked themselves! The question is, are they going to emerge as a legit political movement or are they going to isolate themselves further?

Given the history, it isn't a great day. But it was what they elected. It certainly complicates thing, at least in the near term.

[:haripu:]

God, I really hate to post in this thread (or in the political lounge, come to that) but I just have to do this now.


There is something to be learned from this election:
- Bringing (the western kind of) democracy to the world is not the cure for all "evil" the Bush Administration is looking for. Democracy does not mean everyone will vote the way the United States would like them too. Far from it. They will have their own interests in mind. Neither the elections in Iraq, Iran or Palestinia brought the results the neo-cons would have hoped for after trying to bomb sense into them.
- "Terrorism" is an term that should be banned and forgotten, because it is so bloody useless to any kind of discussion. What US-Americans call a terrorist is a freedom fighter for a lot of people (not that that makes all the killings OK - but that is just the way it is). That is why they were voting for Hamas, that is why the will until they now longer have the fear that they and their whole family could be fire-bombed without a reason by some trigger-happy foreign government anytime it pleases them.
"Terrorism" is a propaganda-term with no meaning, just like the muslim term "Unbeliever" is for you. You don't feel like an unbeliever. You just want to tell them that having different believes doesn't make you evil, and you despise alle the hateful narrow-mindedness the word alone implies. But they won't listen, right? Does that make you wonder, what you aren't listening to?
- Everything the Bush administration has achieved in the last years, has had NO other effect that to prove the propaganda of international terrorism. That America is no less than an imperialistic state that is aggressive, narrow-minded, trigger-happy and idiosyncratic towards the needs of the rest of the world. And, last but not least, out to destroy the islamic states. That is why these people vote for Hamas.

I know that is not true… you all know. But I can't blame them for seeing it that way, given what they have been through the last years.

And that will not change as long as we discuss politics on the intellectual level of the common amoeba, like it mostly happens in this forum (sorry) or, come to that, in the (free) media. This will not change as long as we throw around the "stop-thinking-terms" etc. that do mean nothing, except that our willingness to understand has just hit a brick wall and from now on we prefer the easy solutions. It is so much easier to throw a bomb than to actually find out where the root of the real problem lies - on both sides.


Whatever.
In case you were wondering. No, I am not a Democrat. I am a foreigner.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by boots

The question is, are they going to emerge as a legit political movement or are they going to isolate themselves further?

I think (and hope) it's going to be the former. Hamas has the potential to completely revamp domestic Palestinian politics removing the corruption, instability and intense factionalism that has dogged Fatah for many years. Change in political leadership has been needed for a long time now, it's never very good for the same political party to remain in power for so long, rampant corruption is always how it ends.

Hamas should immediately focus on stabilising the domestic political situation in Palestine. Once this is achieved they will be in a better position to deal with their external relationship with the international community and Israel. Hamas knows it needs international legitimacy and support and they know the only reason the international community has to refuse to deal with them relates to their current position on the Israeli state. When Hamas eventually renounces its call for the destruction of Israel the international community will have no reason to refuse to enter in to a dialogue with them.

In sum, free and fair democratic elections + a stable domestic political situation within Palestine + a recognition of the Israeli state's right to exist = real potential for peaceful settlement of the underlying conflict.

[lil'babykitten]

double post

[lil'babykitten]

triplepost

[Spliffdaddy]

What did you guys expect the Palestinians to do?

Hell, they always make the wrong choices.

It doesn't really affect my day to day life, though.

Let 'em wallow in their misery. It's almost as if they've grown accustomed to it.

[Kevin]

Wow I wish you guys were as optimistic about America as you are ACTUAL terrorist groups.

It's almost funny.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Doesn't mean that anyone has to trade or work with them either. They'll either play ball, or end up another Cuba or Lybia (provided that they're even recognized).

Exactly. Let them succeed or (probably) fail on the merits of their ability to govern the Palestinian territories. If they don't "soften" their anti-Israel rhetoric, coupled with a demonstrable willingness to reduce attacks on Israel, then they should be marginalized.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

I think (and hope) it's going to be the former. Hamas has the potential to completely revamp domestic Palestinian politics removing the corruption, instability and intense factionalism that has dogged Fatah for many years. Change in political leadership has been needed for a long time now, it's never very good for the same political party to remain in power for so long, rampant corruption is always how it ends.

Hamas should immediately focus on stabilising the domestic political situation in Palestine. Once this is achieved they will be in a better position to deal with their external relationship with the international community and Israel. Hamas knows it needs international legitimacy and support and they know the only reason the international community has to refuse to deal with them relates to their current position on the Israeli state. When Hamas eventually renounces its call for the destruction of Israel the international community will have no reason to refuse to enter in to a dialogue with them.

In sum, free and fair democratic elections + a stable domestic political situation within Palestine + a recognition of the Israeli state's right to exist = real potential for peaceful settlement of the underlying conflict.

I like this line of thinking. I would like to see those of us in the West--after a suitable period of teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing has been completed--go to the PA with a "carrot-and-stick" approach. We offer them help with tangible improvements like building infrastructure and a sustainable economic base with the big caveat of them renouncing their claims to "push Israel into the sea". If they are willing to work with us we work with them. If not, we isolate them like MacNNstein suggested.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Doesn't mean that anyone has to trade or work with them either. They'll either play ball, or end up another Cuba or Lybia (provided that they're even recognized).

So, in other words, vote the way we want you to, or suffer the consequences?

While I don't think voting Hamas into power was a good idea, I think Hamas should be given a small (JUST a little) amount of slack and be judged on it's actions from this day forward. Having said that, Hamas' words after being elected do not bode it well.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Gee whiz, and to think, it wasn't all that long ago when the "How many seats of your goverment must terrorists occupy before you can say they have a lot of support" benchmark was established.

Lo the many months ago, terrorists held a mere 13 seats, and it was "Oh, come now. You can't say Hamas has a lot of support with the Palestinian people. Just 13 little seats out of 132 occupied by a terrorist group!"

Not really any major indicator of anything, no sir. Just your average run of the mill national parliment... with terrorists on it!

So, based on the establishment of that original benchmark, and the exceedingly accurate summary that yes indeedy doody, "the Palestinian people have clearly rejected Hamas" I guess we are now to assume that a mere 76 of 132 seats is also a rejection.

I'm guessing, based on the benchmark, that a terrorist group needs about 131 or 132 seats before we can accurately say that, "YES VIRGINIA, many Palestinians support terrorist groups!"

[Big Mac]

When the Bush Administration first began discussing democracy for these people, I knew from the outset once that population got self-determination, it would elect the most fanatical ticket it could. Many Americans and perhaps many Israelis are stunned over this development, but it was not difficult to predict. The terrorist campaign against Israel is a popular uprising. These people don't want peace, and now the world has to recognize as much.

I just wonder how long it will take the State Department to convince the administration that Hamas is no longer a terrorist group. After all, politicians dealt kindly with Arafat in spite of his overt control and coordination of terrorists. I suppose, in order to be legitimized, Hamas only has to start playing Arafat's game of saying one thing in English to the western media while communicating his true beliefs in Arabic.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by :haripu:

God, I really hate to post in this thread (or in the political lounge, come to that) but I just have to do this now. (snip)

Then don't.

We'll both be better off.

Everything that happens in this world simply cannot be Bush's fault.

Starting in 2009, who are you gonna blame?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Actually, this lie keeps being spread by people whose motivation is to smear Israel.

The truth is that Hamas is an Egyptian offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in the 1920s.

You are right, Hamas is an offshoot of the egyptian muslim brotherhood. But it was Israel that allowed the muslim brotherhood entry to Gaza and helped it along considerably to establish there. The idea behind that was to split up the political will of the palestinians between a nationalistic secular movement and an islamistic movement that thinks more about the hereafter than the here and now.

It was a misjudgment and it backfired when Israel found out that the brotherhood created secret weapon-caches and prepared the palestinians in Gaza ideologically for their version of martyrdom.

Hamas grew over time in influence because it had no responsibility and could easily unmask the Fatah's corruption and ineffectiveness in achieving palestinian goals internally and externally, while at the same time establishing and leading a solidarity-net of mosques, schools, charities and hospitals.

Off course it also made some points with its crude revenge-attacks against israeli civilians.

Up until now it had the goal of freeing all occupied land from jewish settlers, including Israel itself.

I think Hamas itself has had the biggest shock in realizing that they won the majority of the seats in the parliament. They had hoped for a strong showing but the majority was not their desired goal, because then they would have to actually take responsibility and show that they really can govern better than the corrupted Fatah.

It seems now as if Hamas is desperately trying to bring the Fatah-faction into a coalition, so that they can still have a scapegoat of a sort in place, and I hope the Fatah rejects the offer.

In order to retain western support, Hamas has to renounce terrorism as well as the goal of destroying Israel. It could soften and moderate its stance considerably.

But there is the big danger that Hamas might decide to do without western support and instead to use its contacts with Syria and Iran to gain political and economic support from them. In that case Hamas will probably keep hold of its noncompromise-attitude.

It will be definetly interesting and exciting (good and bad) in the next few weeks and months.

Taliesin

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

I like this line of thinking. I would like to see those of us in the West--after a suitable period of teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing has been completed--go to the PA with a "carrot-and-stick" approach. We offer them help with tangible improvements like building infrastructure and a sustainable economic base with the big caveat of them renouncing their claims to "push Israel into the sea". If they are willing to work with us we work with them. If not, we isolate them like MacNNstein suggested.

Except that they already have the expectation of always getting the carrot with no stick ever coming.

Pay no mind to the millions upon millions from the US, EU, IMF...

[Hawkeye_a]

So what have the muslim community by large done against terrorist orginazation such as hammas, AQ, JI, etc... that kill innocent non-muslim civilians ?

Well, apparently what ive been saying so far in the PL about muslims not doing enough about terrorist born n bread in their midsts has been....a gross understatement. Not only do the muslims in Palestine support terrorist orginazations, they elect them into governemnt.

So, do we need any more proof that the muslim community support terrorism against non-muslims ? or are you still going to sheepishly deny that ?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Hamas knows it needs international legitimacy and support and they know the only reason the international community has to refuse to deal with them relates to their current position on the Israeli state. When Hamas eventually renounces its call for the destruction of Israel the international community will have no reason to refuse to enter in to a dialogue with them.

In sum, free and fair democratic elections + a stable domestic political situation within Palestine + a recognition of the Israeli state's right to exist = real potential for peaceful settlement of the underlying conflict.

What leads you to believe Hamas knows it needs international legitimacy and support? They have all the support they desire from Egypt, Syria, and more. That, coupled with the flow of millions from the EU and IMF, and I see no motivating factor to lead them to the conclusion you find.

You use the words "When Hamas eventually renounces its call for destruction of Israel" -
This is not a "when" eventuality, but an "if", and an "if" that I do not see as likely to come to pass. Hamas currently proclaims that by taking up political revolution they are not giving up armed revolution- that the violence will continue until they establish an Islamic land in Israel's place.


The lesson of the Holocaust (and this applies to Iran, too) is: "When a party or a country declares their intention to eliminate you, take them seriously."

[von Wrangell]

Yes! We finally got someone to link this somehow to the Holocaust!

Whohoo!

[vmarks]

Hamas and the PA linked it to the Holocaust before I ever did:

They held the elections on the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

And this candidate answers to the name Hitler - I'm still trying to find out if he won or not.


You should be so proud.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Hamas and the PA linked it to the Holocaust before I ever did:

They held the elections on the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.


You should be so proud.

Getting facts wrong has never stopped you before.

Auschwitch liberated by the 322nd Infantry of the Red Army on the 27th of January.

Palestinian elections held on the 25th of January.


Want to spin it a bit more?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Yes! We finally got someone to link this somehow to the Holocaust!

Whohoo!

I find the reference appropriate, for Hamas and Iran both wish to produce a second Holocaust.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I find the reference appropriate, for Hamas and Iran both wish to produce a second Holocaust.

Really? Or is that just what you think they want?

[vmarks]

The Knesset marked the anniversary on the 25th with a special session, and the anniversary is commemorated on the 26th and 27th.

I wonder at your thinking it's only a coincidence that Palestinian elections and their candidates would use such a day and even wear the name of such evil with pride.

Where else in the world would such a thing not be condemned in the strongest terms possible?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

The Knesset marked the anniversary on the 25th with a special session, and the anniversary is commemorated on the 26th and 27th.

I wonder at your thinking it's only a coincidence that Palestinian elections and their candidates would use such a day and even wear the name of such evil with pride.

Where else in the world would such a thing not be condemned in the strongest terms possible?

It's irrelevant when the Knesset decided to hold the anniversary. Completely irrelevant.

But that was a good spin. Got more?


ps. oh, and please throw in more attempts at linking me as a supporter of the holocaust. It makes you and MacNN look so high and mighty.

[Kevin]

wow von, not only no substance, but knee-jerking as well.

[christ]

Originally Posted by vmarks

The lesson of the Holocaust (and this applies to Iran, too) is: "When a party or a country declares their intention to eliminate you, take them seriously."

I presume that by this you mean that Israel should act against Palestinians, not that they should accede to all Palestinian demands.

I'm a bit lost here. (Nothing new).

It is asserted above that the election is proof that the Palestinians support terrorism. I don't understand the purpose of this assertion, but I assume that is has one - would anyone care to enlighten me?

In the absence of such an explanation, I assume that it means that GWB (and/ or Israel) can now justify wiping out the Palestinians in the same way that he has the Iraqi 'supporters of terrorism', on the grounds that f they voted for terrorists then they are inherently evil.

Is this the intent?

If not what?

If it turns out that this is the logic, then doesn't that mean that vmarks' clever quotation about the holocaust applies equally to the Palestinians? If it is the western world's stated aim to destroy all supporters of terrorism, and the Palestinians are now seen as such, then:

The lesson of the Holocaust (and this applies to Palestinians, too) is: "When a party or a country declares their intention to eliminate you, take them seriously."

How do y'all suggest that Palestinans 'take them seriously'? When applied to Israel, I am sure that vmarks didn't intend 'take them seriously' to mean 'do whatever they say to make peace', but I have a feeling that that is exactly what is meant when applied to the Palestinians in the current situation.

As I said, I don't understand. It is very easy to say 'I told you so', but not nearly as easy to see what can be done to solve the problem. The magic bullet 'Democracy' doesn't seem to have solved anything from the 'western' perspective - so why is it being imposed elsewhere?

[christ]

Originally Posted by Y3a

The ignorance of the people who voted them into power is amazing.

Yup.

This is true of all elections, in all democracies. When 'the people' vote in the party that you didn't want to win, 'the people' are amazingly ignorant.

Astonishingly, though, when the party that you want to win is elected, 'the people' have spoken, and their voice is sacrosanct.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by christ

It is asserted above that the election is proof that the Palestinians support terrorism. I don't understand the purpose of this assertion, but I assume that is has one - would anyone care to enlighten me?

In the absence of such an explanation, I assume that it means that GWB (and/ or Israel) can now justify wiping out the Palestinians in the same way that he has the Iraqi 'supporters of terrorism', on the grounds that f they voted for terrorists then they are inherently evil.

Is this the intent?

If not what?

No, many times in here it had been suggested that the terrorist supporters in Palistine was the few. Most were "peaceful" people that just wanted their homeland back.

This shows a different story

That is all.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

I like this line of thinking. I would like to see those of us in the West--after a suitable period of teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing has been completed--go to the PA with a "carrot-and-stick" approach. We offer them help with tangible improvements like building infrastructure and a sustainable economic base with the big caveat of them renouncing their claims to "push Israel into the sea". If they are willing to work with us we work with them. If not, we isolate them like MacNNstein suggested.

Originally Posted by vmarks

Except that they already have the expectation of always getting the carrot with no stick ever coming.

Pay no mind to the millions upon millions from the US, EU, IMF...

Then that is the fault of the US, EU, IMF. Like I said either they place nice, or they get isolated (economically, socially, militarily, politically). If Hamas is to be taken seriously as a political entity they need to renounce their desires to "push Israel into the Sea" and act accordingly. If they don't, the global community should isolate them as much as possible by cutting off trade and political relations.

[Kevin]

I am not too optimistic of Ham playing nicely

They may however form a NEW group that does the terrorist stuff, and they stay out of it.

So they can say "LOOK WE DON'T DO THAT ANYMORE"

[Y3a]

When the general population realizes that Hammas is just as inept and corrupt as the other muslim leaning governments, and they have no jobs, no water and food, no schools, no usable roads, no safe and secure way of life, and no future what will they do? They only get the government they deserve!

[christ]

Originally Posted by Y3a

When the general population realizes that Hammas is just as inept and corrupt as the other muslim leaning governments, and they have no jobs, no water and food, no schools, no usable roads, no safe and secure way of life, and no future what will they do?

Solution?

I infer from this that you think that they should elect a non-muslim leaning government?

Originally Posted by Y3a

They only get the government they deserve!

As do we all, my friend, as do we all.

[christ]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, many times in here it had been suggested that the terrorist supporters in Palistine was the few. Most were "peaceful" people that just wanted their homeland back.

This shows a different story

That is all.

OK - so you think that this shows that they are all terrorist sympathisers?

What is your suggestion for dealing with a legally elected government (and thus population) that falls into this category, then?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by christ

OK - so you think that this shows that they are all terrorist sympathisers?

ALL? Unless Hamas got 100% of the votes.... I would say a majority of them are.

What is your suggestion for dealing with a legally elected government (and thus poulation) that falls into this category, then?

If they actually stop with the shinanigans, I would have no problems with them.

If they keep up with the terrorist attacks on Israel, I guess Israel will have to deal with them.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Actually, this lie keeps being spread by people whose motivation is to smear Israel.

The truth is that Hamas is an Egyptian offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in the 1920s.

The truth unfortunately is relative and will always be filtered first through presupposition. I have three questions I'd like to ask;

"Which of the two, Israel and Palestine has vast military superiority?"

the follow up question is; "how does Palestine find herself in Gaza?"

Why would an imperialistic zionist nation with vastly superior military prowess willingly leave a portion of their "occupied" territory and allow the adversarial Palestinians to settle there?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by vmarks

The Knesset marked the anniversary on the 25th with a special session, and the anniversary is commemorated on the 26th and 27th.

I wonder at your thinking it's only a coincidence that Palestinian elections and their candidates would use such a day and even wear the name of such evil with pride.

Where else in the world would such a thing not be condemned in the strongest terms possible?

Dont you just love the way vW defends Hammas JUST BECAUSE HE IS MUSLIM, LIKE THEM ? it truely gets under my skin that people have the odasity to openly support terrorists this way. Especially after wasting everybody else's time in other threads claiming that muslims are against terrorism.

Well if anything this is a clear example that the majority of muslims near and around Israel are pro terrorism, just as most of us have been saying all along, and that he denied. It's funny he chose to come out as a Hammas supporter just as the Palestinean people pledged their support to terrorists who go around wearing masks and killing civilians. Guess he was just hiding in his closet like most terrorist supporters in the mid-east, and outwardly claiming they were against terrorism. truely sickening.

Either way, i think Israel, with the support of the rest of the free world can ride this through with ease.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

The truth unfortunately is relative and will always be filtered first through presupposition. I have three questions I'd like to ask;

"Which of the two, Israel and Palestine has vast military superiority?"

the follow up question is; "how does Palestine find herself in Gaza?"

Why would an imperialistic zionist nation with vastly superior military prowess willingly leave a portion of their "occupied" territory and allow the adversarial Palestinians to settle there?

Good questions.

And it is not strictly true that Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hamas's founder Sheikh Yassin spent some time in Cairo but Qutb's aims and views are quite different. This is just the 'orthodox' Israeli dismissal of a very dubious (and well documented) episode.

Interesting UPI article

More from CounterPunch

Global Research

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by segovius

Good questions.

And it is not strictly true that Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Whether or not something is "strictly true" is obviously relative, evidenced by this debate in the first place. Let's assume it's absolutely not an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood;

- Which of the two, Israel and Palestine has vast military superiority?

- How does Palestine find herself in Gaza?

- Why would an imperialistic zionist nation with vastly superior military prowess willingly leave a portion of their "occupied" territory and allow the adversarial Palestinians to settle there?

[NYCFarmboy]

If Palestinians feel that Hamas best represents their goals and ideas to represent them in government then that is democracy at work.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Voting has consequences, the voters have only themselves to blame if the results don't please them.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by segovius

Good questions.

And it is not strictly true that Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hamas's founder Sheikh Yassin spent some time in Cairo but Qutb's aims and views are quite different. This is just the 'orthodox' Israeli dismissal of a very dubious (and well documented) episode.

Interesting UPI article

More from CounterPunch

Global Research

It -IS- strictly true that Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Hamas says so.

The Hamas Charter:
"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious...The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised...

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times...

It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned...

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kassam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after...

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him...’

[PacHead]

When Hamas attacks Israel it will be an act of war and Israel will have the full right to respond in kind. Massive carpet bombing is a good solution, no civilians to worry about, just terrorists and their terrorist government. In the meantime, it will be fun to watch the further deterioration and sheer chaos in the territories temporarily occupied by a gang of terrorists.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by NYCFarmboy

If Palestinians feel that Hamas best represents their goals and ideas to represent them in government then that is democracy at work.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Voting has consequences, the voters have only themselves to blame if the results don't please them.

Exactly. It is "put-up-or-shut-up" time for Hamas. If they don't "put-up", by ceasing their attacks on Israel, then they need to be "shut-up" byt those of us in the West (or by Israel bombing them into oblivion).

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Exactly. It is "put-up-or-shut-up" time for Hamas. If they don't "put-up", by ceasing their attacks on Israel, then they need to be "shut-up" byt those of us in the West (or by Israel bombing them into oblivion).

we agree

[boots]

Originally Posted by NYCFarmboy

we agree

I know. Something weird must be in the air, cause I said the same thing near the beginning of the thread.


Things are getting uglier....link

[CollinG3G4]

Sorry if this has been brought up, but does Pakistan have a nuclear arsenal? And ,if so, is there an estimate on its size?

[CollinG3G4]

Double

[CollinG3G4]

Double +1

[Splinter]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4

Sorry if this has been brought up, but does Pakistan have a nuclear arsenal? And ,if so, is there an estimate on its size?

Yeah those pakistan people are really voting all wrong and threatening Israel and stuff... yeah that Pakistan I mean... like wow... but hey yeah, good stuff. Good contribution to the thread. When I read your post I feel like you're really helping it move along the same track it started and was continued on. good stuff, gooooooood stuff...

Oh yeah and Tal... boy you still havn't lost your touch eh? Who was it in here talking about vW supporting terrorists? He's at least still a human beeing with a diffrent oppinion at least he deplores the murder of innocent civilians. vW is small fish guys look at this joker. He aint even hiding it... no it's not wrong i'll murder this baby for revenge and then things will be hunky dory... riiiiight!
"Off course it also made some points with its crude revenge-attacks against israeli civilians."
God; you sicken me to a point of sincere regret at the fate of your eternal soul. Good luck sunshine.

[Sky Captain]

This while mess with Israel started with whom?


Ahhh yes.

The UN.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4

Sorry if this has been brought up, but does Pakistan have a nuclear arsenal? And ,if so, is there an estimate on its size?

Originally Posted by Splinter

Yeah those pakistan people are really voting all wrong and threatening Israel and stuff... yeah that Pakistan I mean... like wow... but hey yeah, good stuff. Good contribution to the thread. When I read your post I feel like you're really helping it move along the same track it started and was continued on. good stuff, gooooooood stuff...

Oh yeah and Tal... boy you still havn't lost your touch eh? Who was it in here talking about vW supporting terrorists? He's at least still a human beeing with a diffrent oppinion at least he deplores the murder of innocent civilians. vW is small fish guys look at this joker. He aint even hiding it... no it's not wrong i'll murder this baby for revenge and then things will be hunky dory... riiiiight!
"Off course it also made some points with its crude revenge-attacks against israeli civilians."
God; you sicken me to a point of sincere regret at the fate of your eternal soul. Good luck sunshine.

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

This while mess with Israel started with whom?


Ahhh yes.

The UN.

Hello?!? Has everyone forgotten how to form complete coherent sentences?
I don't have a clue what these last three posts are supposed to be about. Does anyone else?