[Eug]

Price matters.

$299 was somewhat expensive for the PS2, but at least it came with a DVD player, in the era of VHS which even in 2000 was dated technology.

At $499-599, the PS3 was far too expensive, even with a Blu-ray player in 2006... in the era of when DVD satisfied most people.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

I was talking about programming. Good engineers should be able to figure out anything.

There's a difference between engineers should be able to figure out anything and engineers should program for everything. For example, I could program in Win32. I don't. Why? Because Win32 is a pain in the ass and I don't have any Windows clients I program for right now. If I got a big job that required Win32, yes, I would use Win32. But how many PS3 users are out there clamoring for PS3 software? Not many.

Think about it this way. The Playstation 3 is just like Windows, except with a small marketshare. If Windows had a small marketshare, why would anyone code for it? On the other hand, if the PS3 was easier to code for, more people would code for it even if it had a small marketshare ("hey guys, we're running a few weeks early, let's see if we can get this running on the PS3!")

As another analogy, I think Cocoa really kept the Mac platform alive during the OS X transition. The Mac had a small marketshare, but when it was so easy to code for Mac, why not release a Mac version?

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Price matters.

$299 was somewhat expensive for the PS2, but at least it came with a DVD player, in the era of VHS which even in 2000 was dated technology.

At $499-599, the PS3 was far too expensive, even with a Blu-ray player in 2006... in the era of when DVD satisfied most people.

I agree that the PS3 is too expensive (although if you actually want to use all of its functions, it's a reasonable deal). But the point is that you can't categorize $299 as "cheap" when it was mid-to-top range for consoles up until that point.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I agree that the PS3 is too expensive (although if you actually want to use all of its functions, it's a reasonable deal). But the point is that you can't categorize $299 as "cheap" when it was mid-to-top range for consoles up until that point.

I never said it was truly cheap. I just don't think it was too expensive.

I thought the PS3 was too expensive at launch for a console, at $499-599.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Think about it this way. The Playstation 3 is just like Windows, except with a small marketshare. If Windows had a small marketshare, why would anyone code for it? On the other hand, if the PS3 was easier to code for, more people would code for it even if it had a small marketshare ("hey guys, we're running a few weeks early, let's see if we can get this running on the PS3!")

That doesn't really make sense.

[icruise]

This whole exchange is based on goMac's claim that the PS2's success came from the fact that it was so cheap.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

As another analogy, I think Cocoa really kept the Mac platform alive during the OS X transition. The Mac had a small marketshare, but when it was so easy to code for Mac, why not release a Mac version?

I don't agree. Yes, Cocoa is easy, but how many people are going to learn Objective C just to put something out on the Mac? Many people don't want to learn a new SYNTAX.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

I don't agree. Yes, Cocoa is easy, but how many people are going to learn Objective C just to put something out on the Mac? Many people don't want to learn a new SYNTAX.

Syntax? Cocoa's syntax isn't that hard to learn... If you know a object oriented language it's pretty simple. Besides, with bindings and IB, the amount of code you need to write is substantially reduced.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That doesn't really make sense.

My point is that the PS3 has the programming ease of Windows with the marketshare of the Mac. That isn't a good combination for developers.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Syntax? Cocoa's syntax isn't that hard to learn... If you know a object oriented language it's pretty simple. Besides, with bindings and IB, the amount of code you need to write is substantially reduced.

Tell that to some Visual Studio nut. YOU know it, I know it, but do you really think that someone's gonna really give a rat's ass about Mac programming?

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

My point is that the PS3 has the programming ease of Windows with the marketshare of the Mac. That isn't a good combination for developers.

And yet, look at all the Windows apps.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

And yet, look at all the Windows apps.

Does Windows have the marketshare of the Mac? I'm not sure what's wrong with your reading comprehension here, so I'll lay it out for you:

My point is that the PS3 has the programming ease of Windows with the marketshare of the Mac. That isn't a good combination for developers.

Notice the "with the"? You may also know that as an and. It means both conditions have to be true. The doesn't mean I'm comparing the ease of programming on the PS3 to Win32. That doesn't mean I'm comparing the marketshare to the marketshare of the Mac. That means I'm comparing the PS3 against both. At the same time.

If Windows had the marketshare of the Mac, there would be no apps for it. It would be a pain in the ass to code in Win32 for a platform that doesn't have very many users.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

Tell that to some Visual Studio nut. YOU know it, I know it, but do you really think that someone's gonna really give a rat's ass about Mac programming?

Sure. Cocoa revitalized the Mac software market. Mac OS 9 was starving for software, and suddenly OS X comes along and the amount of software on the platform just explodes.

What else do you think would explain that besides a change in API?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

My point is that the PS3 has the programming ease of Windows with the marketshare of the Mac. That isn't a good combination for developers.

I am not a programmer, but my programmer friends seem to like Micosoft's development tools very much.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Sure. Cocoa revitalized the Mac software market. Mac OS 9 was starving for software, and suddenly OS X comes along and the amount of software on the platform just explodes.

What else do you think would explain that besides a change in API?

Probably one BIG part of that is the fact that OS X doesn't royally suck... like OS 9 does... End users are actually able to use OS X without rebooting 8X a day.

Originally Posted by icruise 

This whole exchange is based on goMac's claim that the PS2's success came from the fact that it was so cheap.

Perhaps a better way to look at the situation is that the PS3's failure (so far at least) comes from the fact that it is so expensive.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I am not a programmer, but my programmer friends seem to like Micosoft's development tools very much.

There's a separation that needs to be made here. There is no doubt that Visual Studio is very nice, far nicer than XCode. But Visual Studio is not the same thing as Win32, and I doubt starman would be so bold to make the claim that Win32 is a nice, clean API.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Does Windows have the marketshare of the Mac? I'm not sure what's wrong with your reading comprehension here, so I'll lay it out for you:

My point is that the PS3 has the programming ease of Windows with the marketshare of the Mac. That isn't a good combination for developers.

Notice the "with the"? You may also know that as an and. It means both conditions have to be true. The doesn't mean I'm comparing the ease of programming on the PS3 to Win32. That doesn't mean I'm comparing the marketshare to the marketshare of the Mac. That means I'm comparing the PS3 against both. At the same time.

If Windows had the marketshare of the Mac, there would be no apps for it. It would be a pain in the ass to code in Win32 for a platform that doesn't have very many users.

I've programmed both platforms for 20 years so I fail to see why programming for Windows is so difficult for you.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

There's a separation that needs to be made here. There is no doubt that Visual Studio is very nice, far nicer than XCode. But Visual Studio is not the same thing as Win32, and I doubt starman would be so bold to make the claim that Win32 is a nice, clean API.

Huh? How is it a "bad API"? It's C/C++. What exactly makes the API bad? I fail to see your problem with it.

Want to see how closely it resembles the Mac's Carbon API? Look at wxWindows someday.

Cocoa was not OS X's savior.

I'm just not sure what you mean by a "clean API". The Windows API is logical and consistent.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Perhaps a better way to look at the situation is that the PS3's failure (so far at least) comes from the fact that it is so expensive.

I'd agree with that more than this "the PS3 is hard to program" crap.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

Huh? How is it a "bad API"? It's C/C++. What exactly makes the API bad? I fail to see your problem with it.

Huh? An API is different than a language. How much programming do you actually do? It is completely possible to code a bad API in C, C++, Objective C, Java, or whatever floats your boat.

Originally Posted by starman 

Want to see how closely it resembles the Mac's Carbon API? Look at wxWindows someday.

Ah. So now Carbon/Toolbox is also a clean API. If Mac OS X only had Carbon, there would be many fewer people coding for it.

Originally Posted by starman 

Cocoa was not OS X's savior.

Again, if Carbon was the only API available for OS X, we'd have a lot fewer coders on the platform.

Originally Posted by starman 

I'm just not sure what you mean by a "clean API". The Windows API is logical and consistent.

Logical and consistent? Try heavyhanded and feature poor. Win32 and Cocoa are not even in the same league when it comes to elegance. Yes, you can achieve the same things in Win32 that you can do in Cocoa, but Cocoa can do things so much faster. If the marketshare rolls were reversed, and Windows was in the minority and the Macintosh was in the majority, I'm pretty sure not many people would actually take the time to bother with Win32.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

I've programmed both platforms for 20 years so I fail to see why programming for Windows is so difficult for you.

Again, you're not getting it. The PS3 is harder (that's a relative term) to program for than the XBox and the Wii. If the PS3 had a large marketshare, yes, developers would be forced to trudge through the PS3's hardware and write stuff.

But the PS3 doesn't have a huge marketshare. Developers don't want to invest money and time programming for the PS3 when the XBox and the Wii are much easier to code for, and yet the PS3 has far lower marketshare.

All I've been saying, which you don't see to understand, is that if the PS3 was easier to program for, the investment to build a toolkit would be less, and it would be more in line with the amount of return one could expect to make on a game with so few PS3 users out there.

[goMac]

In other news... Sony Home has been delayed.

Sony delays 'Home' virtual world for PS3

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by goMac 

In other news... Sony Home has been delayed.

Sony delays 'Home' virtual world for PS3

Hirai, named in November as president to replace Ken Kutaragi, the "father of the PlayStation," sounded apologetic in several places during his speech, acknowledging that the PlayStation 3 had failed to live up to the company's sales targets.
...
"The results we have produced so far have been unfortunate," he said at Makuhari Messe hall of the more than 5 million global sales for the PlayStation 3, which went on sale late last year in Japan and the U.S. and in March in Europe.

Sony once dominated the gaming industry with PlayStation 2, predecessor for the PS3, but now faces intense competition from Microsoft Corp., which has sold 11.6 million Xbox 360 machines in the last two years, and from Nintendo Co.'s popular Wii, which has sold 9.3 million units since late last year.

Hirai showed a new remote controller for the PlayStation 3, "Dualshock 3," that will vibrate along with games such as the shock of impact of a sword hitting an object or a race car swerving. Old games will require downloaded upgrades.
...
Hirai said the core strategy would be to position the PlayStation 3 as a game machine as well as a way to view high-definition Blu-ray video discs.

"We must get back to the basics," Hirai said.

God. Even I am embarrassed for them. Lets hope it's not too little too late for them. It's getting pretty ridiculous. Their bet on Blu-ray to be the big selling point did not at all pay off in the same way DVDs did for the PS2.

[Hawkeye_a]

The Wii has overtaken the XBox360 in marketshare.

Publishers and developers who want a large audience(im guessing there are a few, judging by the number of games on the PS2, GBA and NDS) will probably consider writing a Wii game before a PS3.

So, what made the PS2 so great ?...the library right ?...this time around is looks as though Nintendo is going to have that advantage. More marketshare->more games (and the upwards/downwards spirale continues)

What made the Cube great ? quality titles..... luckily the main company that brought quality to the Cube is also writing software for the Wii (Nintendo).

Where does the XB360 fit into the equation ? im not going to sift through 85+ pages of this thread, but i think many-a-hardcore-fanboy mentioned great quality. ptfft.... red ring of death and the publicity surrounding it, pretty much killed the momentum behind the XB360, and MAY only be revived with halo 3. Personally, i hate to say told you so, but ...it's from Microsoft. let them release a product that actually has some quality and testing behind it and i might actually consider their products.

Sony ?....better graphics..... woopie....

As for the dude who suggested the Wii is a toy (because heavens forbid a console appeal to more than *your* demographic) and not be included in sales figures...maybe you should start your own sales research firm and research just the PS3 so that way the PS3 will always be at the top of your list.

By the way, starman.... the Wii is the #1 selleing console, ahead of the Xbox360 and PS3 in weekly/monthly and overall sales.... but let me guess, the PS3's day will come, right ? I cant wait for the day when you get to tell me "i told you so".

Cheers

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Where does the XB360 fit into the equation ? im not going to sift through 85+ pages of this thread, but i think many-a-hardcore-fanboy mentioned great quality. ptfft.... red ring of death and the publicity surrounding it, pretty much killed the momentum behind the XB360, and MAY only be revived with halo 3. Personally, i hate to say told you so, but ...it's from Microsoft. let them release a product that actually has some quality and testing behind it and i might actually consider their products.

No offense, but you're very wrong with this statement. Microsoft and Nintendo are *extremely* close in market share, both close to 40% for current-gen hardware. It's still outselling the PS3, so I'm not sure how you can say its momentum has been "killed."

There are hardware issues, but that hasn't stopped the 360 from being a HUGE success.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Huh? An API is different than a language. How much programming do you actually do? It is completely possible to code a bad API in C, C++, Objective C, Java, or whatever floats your boat.

I don't do much programming. Just software that costs upwards of $150k.

You read that right.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

By the way, starman.... the Wii is the #1 selleing console, ahead of the Xbox360 and PS3 in weekly/monthly and overall sales.... but let me guess, the PS3's day will come, right ? I cant wait for the day when you get to tell me "i told you so".

Cheers

When did I say that? Oh, right, you're back to your old tricks of making sh*t up again.

[starman]

Big In Japan: Famitsu Loves Halo 3 - Kotaku

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by starman 

Big In Japan: Famitsu Loves Halo 3 - Kotaku

Saw that, I wonder if it'll get anyone in Japan to buy an XBox. I kinda doubt it...

[starman]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

No offense, but you're very wrong with this statement. Microsoft and Nintendo are *extremely* close in market share, both close to 40% for current-gen hardware. It's still outselling the PS3, so I'm not sure how you can say its momentum has been "killed."

There are hardware issues, but that hasn't stopped the 360 from being a HUGE success.

He's a well-known rabid Nintendo fanboy. Let him think what he wants. We all know he's full of hot air.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

What made the Cube great ? quality titles..... luckily the main company that brought quality to the Cube is also writing software for the Wii (Nintendo).

Well, I kinda liked the Gamecube, but its sales weren't exactly "great".

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Saw that, I wonder if it'll get anyone in Japan to buy an XBox. I kinda doubt it...

Well, maybe some, but I also don't see significant penetration of the 360 in Japan.

[Hawkeye_a]

I'm a crazy rabbid fanboy !!!

I dont think Microsoft deserves credit for anything except for releasing a console a year before Sony and Nintendo, which was rather a marketing advantage rather than a "distinguishing" feature of the product.... an advantage none the less (ala PS2). Comparing their sales momentum to a console that was released a year later, its hard not to see the XB360 as a lost opportunity(business wise)... overall steady sales are good, but i reckon selling those boxes at a loss SHOULD have at least put their numbers on par with the toy from Nintendo.

As a conscious consumer, im just a lot more suspicious of buying anything from Microsoft, especially given it's abnormally high failure rate. And extending the warranty past a year shouldnt be seen as a "favour" from Microsoft imo.

Not, eeing as how i am such a rabid fanboy..... whats this discussion about starman ? I was under the impression it was about:
-Which console would win the marketshare battle ?
-Which console would have the most games and support ?
-Which console "innovates" ?

I *think* you always argued that the PS2 was better because of it's huge library and i couldnt agree more...for a gaming console thats a huge plus. Now using that same reasoning, which one is a better gaming console ? Wii or PS3 ?

As far as marketshare goes it's clear whos won, the toy...

So what "battle" between the consoles are you arguing about ?

If you are simply arguing which one is "better"...a purely subjective measure...there is no win or loose or better or worse. it would be like aruing whose favorite colour is better.

Cheers

[starman]

Neither. The 360 IMO is the best console out there as far as overall value. Despite its failure rates (I have two of them and they work fine) I think that their Xbox Live service is top notch, they "get" the HD requirements (hence the new Elite series), and they put a voice chat device in the box. It's a shame the PS3 isn't selling well because I think it's a damn nice piece of hardware. I use it as my movie player upstairs because the upscaler beats the crap out of the 360's, and it's a smooth UI. The games on it are gorgeous. I think they just overpriced it IMO. The Blu-Ray aspect MIGHT have been too much, I'm still on the fence about that. It's nice having a BR player upstairs (I already have one downstairs).

As for the Wii, meh. My kids use it sometimes. I'm still scared to death that someone's gonna throw a remote into my new LCD TV. They've gotten so bored of Paper Mario that they don't even play it anymore, they're playing Pokemon on their DS's.

As for "the toy" winning, just because you nudged ahead .1% this WEEK doesn't mean you "won". There's still Halo 3 next week and you've got a long way 'till the next generation.

I swear, I imagine you hovering over the 'net waiting for that one moment when Nintendo ekes out a percentage point above someone just so you can explode in your pants.

[Hawkeye_a]

How'd you know ?

But seriously, speaking about that 1 percentage point... lets not forget how you M$ fanboys rejoyced that the XBox didnt come in last, because of...how many percentage points ?

Ah so, your entire argument in this thread is about how your OPINION is right ? look dude, you like those consoles cause of their power... good on ya. i really dont care. Give me quantifyable proof that your opinion matters more than anyone elses, and then maybe we have something to argue about.

Before i baught a Wii, i argued that it had the most potential to win the marketshare battle, and with that the battle for support. here we are a year later , and it's overtaken the 360 which had a year's head start and sold 2-3X more than a much more powerful competitor.

So your arguing that the Xbox or PS3 are "better" machines because of your fanboyism and preferences ?.... well... is that why your getting so defensive and resorting to personal insults ?

PS>> This is my last post in this thread until the PS3 outsells the Wii carry on folks

[jokell82]

Trouble is, the Wii doesn't have NEARLY the library the 360 has. Developers are *scrambling* to support the Wii, which has brought about some awful ports and some ridiculously stupid movie tie-in games.

Now that will probably all turn around, once developers have time to develop some decent games. But right now the Wii's main problem is the same problem Nintendo has had since the N64 - there are no good third-party games. Will they come? I hope so, I'm a Nintendo fan. But right now my Wii is boxed up in my closet while I only play my 360...

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by starman 

As for "the toy" winning, just because you nudged ahead .1% this WEEK doesn't mean you "won". There's still Halo 3 next week and you've got a long way 'till the next generation.

The point isn't really that the Wii is winning. The point is that it has overtaken the market in only ten months, while the 360 has been out there for twenty.

The Wii has some shortcomings, yes. No HD is a turn-off for me. Plenty of gimmicky games currently out there...sure.

But the 360 is getting HORRIBLE press for its failure rate, and the PS3 is selling only about 160,000 per month due primarily to its price tag.

Hawkeye had a valid point in saying that publishers are going to line up behind the console that attracts the most customers. Game software companies exist to MAKE MONEY. They money is in the Wii right now, and within a year, the sheer number of titles released will be staggering. I'm sure the quality of those games will go up as soon as people stop porting PSP games and actually have the time to develop some good games.

The 360 has some really good games, but it may have reached a point where most of the people who really wanted one have already bought one. Halo 3 might initiate a spike in sales, but we'll see.

[starman]

100,000 PSPs sold in Japan last week, beat DS Lites.

DS Lite sales fall below 100k for the second week in a row.

� Crisis Core Sells 470k in first week with 100k PSPs sold Gamers-Creed: Latest In Gaming News:

PSP: 100,000
DSL: 74,000

Just to show things CAN turn around.

(blah blah "just one week only" blah blah fanboy blah blah)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

I don't do much programming. Just software that costs upwards of $150k.

You read that right.

Well, in trying to figure out why you made a comparison so bad that even a second year computer science student would be horrified, I've just decided you thought I was stupid enough that you could dilute the argument into something else entirely unrelated. Either that or you're the intern who gets to write a few lines in the installer script.

Your $150k a pop doesn't really impress me. The stuff I write isn't publicly available, but it manages assets that are worth many, many times more than your software is a copy. And given how much crap software I've seen that is only expensive because it fills a niche no one else is willing to fill, I'm not a big fan of the concept that the more software is worth, the better it is.

Regardless, the concept of an API vs a language isn't really related to this debate, and I think is over the heads of a lot of people in this thread, so I doubt they are interested in it.

[starman]

It's not a bad comparison because it's your OPINION.

If you knew what I worked on, you would be impressed.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

What made the Cube great ? quality titles..... luckily the main company that brought quality to the Cube is also writing software for the Wii (Nintendo).

Where does the XB360 fit into the equation ? im not going to sift through 85+ pages of this thread, but i think many-a-hardcore-fanboy mentioned great quality. ptfft.... red ring of death and the publicity surrounding it, pretty much killed the momentum behind the XB360, and MAY only be revived with halo 3. Personally, i hate to say told you so, but ...it's from Microsoft. let them release a product that actually has some quality and testing behind it and i might actually consider their products.

First off, the Cube was never great. I know of one single person who bought it, and he ended up playing my XBox more often.

The 360 failure rate sucks, but mostly everyone got the warranty. So it breaks and they got a brand new one. My new one is about 10X quieter than my previous one AND it hasn't frozen once. So I guess the fixed that problem. Halo 3 will be worth more momentum than you are giving it credit for (I bet since your such a huge Nintendo fan). Halo 1 and 2 were massively successful games. Also, you make no mention of how dominating XBox Live is right now. That alone would make me prefer the 360 over the other two fledgling services.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

It's not a bad comparison because it's your OPINION.

I'm not quite sure what this means. If it means you can make up whatever you want and pretend it's actually true... A language can impact an API's usability, but writing an API in a good language does not necessarily make a good API. That's like saying any house built in Malibu will always be a luxury home.

Originally Posted by starman 

If you knew what I worked on, you would be impressed.

Good, because so far I haven't been.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by sek929 

First off, the Cube was never great. I know of one single person who bought it, and he ended up playing my XBox more often.

The Cube was very much a party console. We'd play mine constantly at school. The XBox... I mean, multiplayer Halo over LAN was awesome on the XBox... but honestly the original XBox didn't have much else going for it. I think the 360 is in a lot better shape, and Microsoft learned from the original XBox and put more specialized hardware in the 360.

Originally Posted by sek929 

The 360 failure rate sucks, but mostly everyone got the warranty. So it breaks and they got a brand new one. My new one is about 10X quieter than my previous one AND it hasn't frozen once. So I guess the fixed that problem. Halo 3 will be worth more momentum than you are giving it credit for (I bet since your such a huge Nintendo fan). Halo 1 and 2 were massively successful games. Also, you make no mention of how dominating XBox Live is right now. That alone would make me prefer the 360 over the other two fledgling services.

Halo 3 will be big, and XBox Live is very nice. I'm sure Microsoft will gain some momentum in the short term, but Nintendo has some of their heavy hitters coming in the near future.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Good, because so far I haven't been.

Lawl. Someone who was born when I was in college studying this sh*t is telling me how it is. How funny.

Kid, when you grow up and work in the real world (what are you now, 21?) then come to me and tell me how the computing world works. Right now you're trying to impress me with vaporware.

Yeah, I used to think that the Mac was the sh*t back when I was your age, too. Then you get into a real job with real requirements and real customers with real needs and real PCs and Macs and things aren't as rosy as you thought they were.

I tried the whole "we should write it in Cocoa" crap at work, too, but the fact is that it isn't always the best solution. Sorry. Real world wins.

I'd really like to hold this thread for 10 or 20 years and see if you feel the same way.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

Lawl. Someone who was born when I was in college studying this sh*t is telling me how it is. How funny.

Ah. Yeah um. I'm not sure telling me that you went to college 20 years ago is exactly a great argument.

Originally Posted by starman 

Kid, when you grow up and work in the real world (what are you now, 21?) then come to me and tell me how the computing world works. Right now you're trying to impress me with vaporware.

Ooops. Forgot to mention I was employed. I thought that was implied when I talked about what I do for a living, but I guess that went over your head...

Trust me, I went through my Windows phase before OS X came out. I grew up Mac, but OS 8.5 and 9 were just too much for me when Microsoft had stuff like Win2k out. When I first programming for an employer at the bright young age of 14 my box was a Win2k box. I didn't actually start coding Cocoa again for work until this year.

Originally Posted by starman 

Yeah, I used to think that the Mac was the sh*t back when I was your age, too. Then you get into a real job with real requirements and real customers with real needs and real PCs and Macs and things aren't as rosy as you thought they were.

Apparently you've failed to notice that the crux of my argument is that people only program for Win32 because it's necessary for the real world because of market share reasons...

But whatever, I agree. Yay! Thank you for arguing my point for me.

Originally Posted by starman 

I tried the whole "we should write it in Cocoa" crap at work, too, but the fact is that it isn't always the best solution. Sorry. Real world wins.

Do you have any Mac users?

Originally Posted by starman 

I'd really like to hold this thread for 10 or 20 years and see if you feel the same way.

Why? Technology changes. Just like Mac OS sucked 10 years ago, it's perfectly possible that it will suck again compared to Windows in 10 years. I wouldn't be surprised if my opinion was different 10 years from now because technology will be different 10 years from now. Heck, maybe Sony will finally have their act together in 10 years and I'll be a Sony fan.

[starman]

The PSP dominates in Japan for the second week in a row. Where are all the Nintendo fanboys now that said it would never happen?

Japanese Hardware September 10 - 16

PSP - 95,487
DSL - 79,974
Wii - 26,181
PS2 - 13,128
PS3 - 13,101
Xbox360 - 1,243
GBM - 714
GBASP - 122
GC - 97
DS - 15
GBA - 0

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by starman 

The PSP dominates in Japan for the second week in a row. Where are all the Nintendo fanboys now that said it would never happen?

Japanese Hardware September 10 - 16

PSP - 95,487
DSL - 79,974
Wii - 26,181
PS2 - 13,128
PS3 - 13,101
Xbox360 - 1,243
GBM - 714
GBASP - 122
GC - 97
DS - 15
GBA - 0

I'm not a Nintendo Fanboy, but a couple good weeks does not mean the PSP is dominating. It still only has about 1/3 of the user base the DS does...

Edit - also, the DS "dominated" the chart in software sales for the same period.

[starman]

Wrong about the software:

Software September 10 - 16

1. [PSP] Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII - 487,000 / NEW
2. [NDS] Pokemon Fushigi no Dungeon: Toki no Tankentai - 300,000 / NEW
3. [NDS] Pokemon Fushigi no Dungeon: Yami no Tankentai - 269,000 / NEW
4. [PSP] Fate/Tiger Colosseum - 55,000 / NEW
5. [PS2] Another Century's Episode 3: The Final - 31,000 / 218,000
6. [NDS] Taiko no Tatsujin DS - 24,000 / 131,000
7. [WII] Mario Party 8 - 24,000 / 756,000
8. [NDS] Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles - Ring of Fates - 24,000 / 316,000
9. [PS2] Sengoku Musou 2 Mushouden - 14,000 / 274,000
10. [NDS] My Housekeeping Diary - 13,000 / 195,000

[starman]

I just had to....

Even if this surge for the PSP only lasts a little while, it just goes to show that even fanboys can be wrong because they don't look at the market as a whole.

Originally Posted by goMac 

In the same way, it will be a while before the PSP dies. But it will enter into a nice slow decline while the DS chews away at it's market share.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Hmm i haadnt noticed that. but anyway.... from the looks of the number of games being developed, the number of developers developing for it, the number of movie studios supporting it, the number of companies trying to imitate it and the number of people buying it..... it becomes apparent that the PSP is a has-been and can join the ranks of ever portable gaming console that tried to compete with Nintendo. it does have significantly better graphics though lol.

Cheers

[icruise]

I personally like the PSP a lot better than the DS overall, but yeah, this is just a temporary surge and I don't think there's any chance of the PSP catching up to the DS for overall sales. That said, I don't think it's reasonable to expect that it should. It's more expensive than the DS and mostly targets older users, while the DS has a huge preteen following as well as young adult and adult users. Even so, it's the only system to ever hold its own against a Nintendo portable.

[starman]

I just find it humorous that a year ago the N fanboys were already deciding that the PSP had no future and now look - it's taking over Nintendo. Agreed, it's probably a short spurt, but I bet these guys never thought it would happen.

It's a dose of reality I had to hit them with, especially since they're feeling high and mighty about the Wii.

I didn't think they'd bring that chart up on their own either.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by starman 

Wrong about the software:

Software September 10 - 16

1. [PSP] Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII - 487,000 / NEW
2. [NDS] Pokemon Fushigi no Dungeon: Toki no Tankentai - 300,000 / NEW
3. [NDS] Pokemon Fushigi no Dungeon: Yami no Tankentai - 269,000 / NEW
4. [PSP] Fate/Tiger Colosseum - 55,000 / NEW
5. [PS2] Another Century's Episode 3: The Final - 31,000 / 218,000
6. [NDS] Taiko no Tatsujin DS - 24,000 / 131,000
7. [WII] Mario Party 8 - 24,000 / 756,000
8. [NDS] Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles - Ring of Fates - 24,000 / 316,000
9. [PS2] Sengoku Musou 2 Mushouden - 14,000 / 274,000
10. [NDS] My Housekeeping Diary - 13,000 / 195,000

2 and 3 are the same game. Here's the top 10:

1. [NDS] Pokemon Mysterious Dungeon 2: Time / Darkness Exploration Team - 594,063 / 594,063
2. [PSP] Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII - 489,007 / 489,007
3. [PSP] Fate / Tiger Colosseum - 55,168 / 55,168
4. [PS2] Another Centuries Episode 3: The Final - 35,729 / 208,425
5. [NDS] Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates - 23,486 / 334,367
6. [WII] Mario Party 8 - 23,166 / 801,541
7. [NDS] Taiko Drum Master DS - 19,398 / 131,227
8. [NDS] My Household Budget Diary - 13,892 / 200,035
9. [WII] Wii Sports - 13,165 / 2,102,408
10. [NDS] More Brain Training - 12,639 / 4,752,980

[jokell82]

And here's the software totals for that week:

Console - Week - Total
NDS - 937,366 - 78,498,559
PSP - 566,555 - 12,537,602
PS2 - 96,717 - 121,510,055
Wii - 79,388 - 9,323,137
PS3 - 22,322 - 2,049,886
X360 - 4,170 - 1,575,336
GC - 174 - 21,331,780
GBA - 102 - 47,307,695

So yes, the PSP is definitely doing well as of recently, but I'd hardly call it dominating.