[Retrograde]

Ok, well, not quite.

But only rarely now can I get past the startup "bong" and even then when it does it hangs on the Welcome to Mac OS 9 sign before any extensions begin to load.

Here's the shivy:

� Powermac 6500/300. Mac OS 9.1. 64MB Ram; VM on at 128MB. Software all up to date as of last week (used Software Updater).

� I was connected to the web with a new Olitec Universal Self Memory Pro 56k modem connected via USB to a 2 port USB PCI expansion card.

� While connected to the web, the only thing running was the Finder from which I was copying a file to my mounted iDisk. During the iDisk file transfer the 6500 completely froze requiring a forced restart.

� Upon restart the boot only got as far as the "Welcome to Mac OS 9.1" screen without extensions appearing at the bottom of the screen before freezing again, requiring an additional restart. The second forced restart only gave me the "Bong" and wouldn't even light up my monitor from the energy saving mode.

� 95% of subsequent forced reboots gave only the Bong with the others occasionally bringing up the "Welcome" screen before freezing.

<font color = red> Now, Here's the clincher: The above situation also occurs when attempting to boot from a ZIP disk or from the Mac OS 9 Install CD. </font>

This leaves me thinking I have a hardware problem. Can anyone help before I am forced to bring the 6500 to an Apple Centre and thus forced to pay an outrageous repair/service bill?!

Help!

[Cipher13]

Disconnect all USB devices from the PCI card and boot; hold Apple-Option-P-R straight away, and let go after 3 'bongs'. Now continue to boot.

If that doesn't help, remove the USB PCI card...
See if that does.

[Retrograde]

Cipher Thanks for replying and offering some advice

I thought you had solved my problem when I zapped the PRAM (I had forgotten that you needed to wait for 3 bongs for it to work!), however while the boot seemed to be running normally it froze after it began to mount my first partition--the partition icon displayed on the desktop but then everything else stopped leaving me with another forced restart.

Unfortunately I am back at square one again with only bongs and nothing else. I still cannot boot from a ZIP or the Mac OS 9 Install CD.

I have also tried removing the USB card with no change in the circumstances.

This is now beginning to look a lot worse. Any other ideas? Should I try removing other cards in the Mac? Do you need further information on my system's configurations? Anyone?

Thanks

any use to boot from a techtool pro CD and run an analysis?

jodo

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Retrograde:
<STRONG>Cipher Thanks for replying and offering some advice

I thought you had solved my problem when I zapped the PRAM (I had forgotten that you needed to wait for 3 bongs for it to work!), however while the boot seemed to be running normally it froze after it began to mount my first partition--the partition icon displayed on the desktop but then everything else stopped leaving me with another forced restart.

Unfortunately I am back at square one again with only bongs and nothing else. I still cannot boot from a ZIP or the Mac OS 9 Install CD.

I have also tried removing the USB card with no change in the circumstances.

This is now beginning to look a lot worse. Any other ideas? Should I try removing other cards in the Mac? Do you need further information on my system's configurations? Anyone?

Thanks</STRONG>

Alright, I know your problem now.
Easy
Your HD is damaged in a really messed up way. I had the same thing happen to me... but its not bad enough

Zap your PRAM again. Now, the Finder is causing you these problems.
The corrupted HD is crashing the Finder as it mounts the volumes. Yes, the Finder, not the system.

So, we take the Finder out of the equation.

What I did, is put a system folder on a different hard drive. Delete the Finder from that system.

Install Disk Warrior to that system, and delete the Finder from the System Folder.

Get the Disk Warrior application, and change its name to "Finder", and put it in the System Folder.

Change its creator code to MACS and its type code to FNDR with ResEdit or any tool like that.

Boot from that drive. You're on an Old World ROM machine which will make this more difficult, because you can't choose the disk at startup via the option key... no worries.

Try this:

Hold Apple-Option-Shift-Delete (I hope this works on OWR machines... it might be different on them) at startup. It will hopefully move to the next startup disk. To make sure, the drive with this special System on it, put as Master.

Once booted from the System, DiskWarrior will load. Let it rebuild the machine.

Done... your machine will be fixed.

Now, the obstacles are these:

1. find a spare hard drive.
- no need for a new machine - you can perform this on your 6400 by removing the bad HD and setting up this system on the new one.
Then attach the bad HD as a slave... the 6400 has now many spaces on its IDE bus?

2. hope the machine boots off the right drive... if not, report back, and I'll give you the correct key combo

Good luck.

(This is all from memory... I hope I haven't missed anything. If I have, no worries, we'll soon find out and I'll fix it. This happened to my machine one night before I had to hand in a paper which was on the drive... after working out the problem, it didn't take long to work the way around it and fix it. The data on the drive was perfectly okay, though your drive may be a little more severely fux0red...)

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by &lt;jodo&gt;:
<STRONG>any use to boot from a techtool pro CD and run an analysis?

jodo</STRONG>

That would be a good idea, but the problem is that I cannot seem to boot from any other media at the moment, ie. I can neither boot from the Mac OS 9 Install CD (bypassing the hard disk)nor from a specially made ZIP rescue disk with Norton Utilities, Antivirus, and various other utilities I hobbled together for times like these.

[Retrograde]

Cipher, thanks for taking the time and effort to think about this

Here are my initial thoughts:

-- If it is indeed the Hard Drive that is the problem why can't I boot from the CD Drive or from the SCSI ZIP Drive? If I just remove the Hard Drive should I be able to boot from the CD or a ZIP without there being any drive attached internally?

--I believe that the 6500 has a strange IDE controller which will only allow one IDE drive to be hooked up at any one time (at least that is the case for the older 6400) and so unfortunately I cannot go the route of hooking up 2 IDE drives (master/slave). However there is another free drive bay in the 6500 at the top which can be fitted with a scsi drive... although I am not sure what type of scsi connector the drive would require....? I will have to check that out.

My worry is that if I cannot get the mac to boot from the CD drive now or from the ZIP using Apple-Option-Shift-Delete then how will I get a new System with new Finder to load from another drive in the scsi bay? Won't a new drive in the SCSI bay appear the same way as the Zip does currently? Maybe I should just get another IDE drive and put that in there and try to format and boot it using the Mac OS 9 Install CD?

Sorry about this post... far too many questions without trying any of your suggestions yet I will have to go and see now how to get hold of DiskWarrior and an additional drive... Cheers

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Retrograde:
<STRONG>Cipher, thanks for taking the time and effort to think about this

Here are my initial thoughts:

-- If it is indeed the Hard Drive that is the problem why can't I boot from the CD Drive or from the SCSI ZIP Drive? If I just remove the Hard Drive should I be able to boot from the CD or a ZIP without there being any drive attached internally?</STRONG>

No prob

You can't because the Finder crashes when mounting the volumes. ANY Finder - the Finder itself isn't damaged; but due to the HD damage it can't mount the volumes, and doesn't know what to do, and crashes.

Something to try is, as you're booting, before the Finder loads, hold Apple-Option to try and rebuild the Desktop... tell me what happens when you do that (try it before anything else).

You will be able to boot from the CD if the drive is not present, I gaurantee it.

<STRONG>--I believe that the 6500 has a strange IDE controller which will only allow one IDE drive to be hooked up at any one time (at least that is the case for the older 6400) and so unfortunately I cannot go the route of hooking up 2 IDE drives (master/slave). However there is another free drive bay in the 6500 at the top which can be fitted with a scsi drive... although I am not sure what type of scsi connector the drive would require....? I will have to check that out.</STRONG>

Damn... you'll need a... umm... (guessing 50 pin?) SCSI HD - I'll have to disconnect the CD-ROM and check that for you (I have an internal SCSI CD-ROM sitting on top of my Tower, so no hassle - it'll be the same as that, I hope, but not necessarily...)

But if you can burn a bootable CD with this special system on it - even better...

<STRONG>

My worry is that if I cannot get the mac to boot from the CD drive now or from the ZIP using Apple-Option-Shift-Delete then how will I get a new System with new Finder to load from another drive in the scsi bay? Won't a new drive in the SCSI bay appear the same way as the Zip does currently? Maybe I should just get another IDE drive and put that in there and try to format and boot it using the Mac OS 9 Install CD?</STRONG>

Don't worry - one way or another we'll get it done. That much I gaurantee.
You could get a new IDE drive, but whats the fun in that? You wanna salvage your current one, right? Easy

<STRONG>

Sorry about this post... far too many questions without trying any of your suggestions yet I will have to go and see now how to get hold of DiskWarrior and an additional drive... Cheers </STRONG>

Not a problem

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>

You can't because the Finder crashes when mounting the volumes. ANY Finder - the Finder itself isn't damaged; but due to the HD damage it can't mount the volumes, and doesn't know what to do, and crashes.

Something to try is, as you're booting, before the Finder loads, hold Apple-Option to try and rebuild the Desktop... tell me what happens when you do that (try it before anything else).

You will be able to boot from the CD if the drive is not present, I gaurantee it.
</STRONG>

OK here is the current situation:

I was able to zap the PRAM once after you suggested it and I managed to get the mac to boot up until it started to mount the volumes. But now I can no longer zap the PRAM, I mean, I no longer get three bongs. Just the single bong and then nothing. In fact that is all I have gotten since I zapped the PRAM. So unfortunately I cannot even get to the point of volume mounting.

I also tried resetting the motherboard with no change in the situation.

I am currently thinking that the only thing to do is try to remove the hard drive and hope that it boots from the CD Drive, because at the moment that seems to be the only possible way of getting the machine to boot at all. It won't boot from the ZIP or CD Drive as it used to when either holding down the C key at startup or using the COMMAND-CTRL-SHIFT-BACKSPACE keys.

oh, and I'm almost positive it is a 50 pin scsi connector for the free bay.

Again, thanks

[Cipher13]

I'm pretty sure it will boot if you remove the HD and go off the CD.

If not... then... damn.

Do you have access to a burner?

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>I'm pretty sure it will boot if you remove the HD and go off the CD.

If not... then... damn.

Do you have access to a burner?</STRONG>

I have just removed the Hard Drive although I haven't attempted to boot from the CD Drive yet... wish me luck!

I don't have a burner I'm afraid... although I might be able to access one that is hooked up to a pc... but that would have to be arranged.

Let's see how the boot sans hard drive goes.

Cheers

[Retrograde]

A quick question:

I have a SUN 17" monitor hooked to the mac (don't ask why ) and it is connected to the standard video card via 2 adapters (one 13w3 to vga adapter and then a vga to Apple type video adapter with dip switch settings to give the video card the right multiscan information for it to work.

Now, the monitor isn't coming out of the sleep mode after I rebooted without the Hard Disk but do you think maybe it has booted via the CD but there is some incompatibility with the monitor?

ie. Do you think I should go and unpack my old Apple 15" monitor just to make sure there isn't a problem between the software on the CD as opposed to that on the hard disk? or do you think that my version of 9.1 and the version of 9 on the cd won't make any difference to the monitor working so long as the dip switch settings for multiscan are set correctly?

Thanks

[Retrograde]

Actually, now that I think about it, it shouldn't make any difference (I don't think) because I remember yesterday when I was having these problems that I managed to get the CD to partly boot before it froze and it was showing on the SUN monitor. So, that shouldn't be a problem. Or could it have read something from the hard sisk even though it was booting from the CD? Unlikely I would think.

Unfortunately what this means is that the 6500 is not booting from the CD with the Hard Disk removed

Now I think there might really be a problem.

[Cipher13]

Now thats interesting.

I keep thinking in terms of NWR machines... gotta stop that.

It really shouldn't make a difference... but in this instance... I'd have to say you're better safe than sorry.

With an old world machine, its entirely possible that the machine won't boot without a drive... I just don't know. I'd try it on the 5500 but my sis is on that one.

Hmm. I think its worth a try with the Apple 15", but if its too much hassle... theoretically it shoudln't make a difference.

But then, theoretically, your drive should be fine too

[Cipher13]

Hm, okay, given your last post, don't bother with the Apple 15".

Alrighty... I'm just gonna assume the boot problem is due to the absence of a HD... but... argh.

Dammit, that shouldn't make a difference, because the very old machines would boot off a floppy alone, with no HD built in.

But... the floppy was r/w... hmm.

Okay, this is interesting...

After putting the HD back, whats the boot process like? Does the monitor come on with it back in? Maybe you knocked something; or, perhaps you should reset the PRAM again.

You mentioned earlier that you couldn't reset the PRAM?

Nothing should stop a 6500 from performing a PRAM zap - thats how they're designed. OWR. Hard wired.

Try it without the HD present...

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Cipher13 ]

[Cipher13]

Yeah, no HD doesn't stop the screen from showing, as I thought... no harm in being optimistic though
(Just tried it on the 5500)...

[Retrograde]

OK, I just posted a query on the 6400Zone forums page to ask whether there is a problem with booting a 6500 from the CD drive if the Hard Disk is removed.

Now, I just tried to zap the pram with the hard disk removed but again, nothing but the initial startup bong and nothing from then on.

What happens when I hit the power on is initially the monitor gives the green light for it to come on but then it automatically switchs back to the orange energy saver light. I assume this is because there is no boot in process.

I haven't put the hard drive back in yet. Maybe I will try to boot with a super old floppy disk which might have an ancient system on it... I'll have to search to find it.

Cheers

[Cipher13]

Hm. I'm not thinking straight tonight (funny, I am now that I turned the NIN off... though the headache remains).

It will boot and show the flashing disk icon if nothing is present... *sigh*

I shoulda remembered that.

If you aren't getting anything more than two bongs, something is wrong.

You sure you're doing it right?

Apple-Option-P-R straight after hitting power, then let go after 3 bongs. Be patient - each subsequent bong may take 5 seconds or longer to happen...

Try doing it from a cold start, not a warm reboot. On newer machines that has a different effect - its worth a try on an older one.

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>Yeah, no HD doesn't stop the screen from showing, as I thought... no harm in being optimistic though
(Just tried it on the 5500)...</STRONG>

Yes, this is what I suspected too. Thanks for going to the trouble to check on your sister's 5500

I just tried to boot with the floppy disk that I suspect has the older system on it... no luck

This is really looking bad. I guess this is likely to be a motherboard fault?

[Retrograde]

I should add that I am not sure that this is the right floppy and have no way of testing at the moment... I am working on a PC notebook without a floppy drive!

[Cipher13]

No worries

Okay, lets see... your 6500 has internal video... like the 5500, right? They're the exact same mobo I think, except you have two PCI slots. Or, basically the same.

I wonder if you could get a PCI vid card... argh.

Nevermind, I am positive the HD is corrup - there may be ANOTHER issue but I'm almost willing to bet a finger that your drive is screwed.

There may be a mobo problem - if you could put the HD back in to see if the monitor comes on... though, really, it shouldn't if it isn't now

Maybe its one of the quirks of a 6500... afterall the 5500 has an internal monitor so it might be slightly different (though really, its essentially its the exact same setup, just with the monitor in the same case...)

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Cipher13 ]

[Retrograde]

I just put the hard disk back in and it is humming away as normal when turned on but still the same situation with the monitor as you suspected: green light initially and then immediately jumps to the amber energy saver light. So no monitor action.

Also, what happens with both the hard disk and the CD Drive when I start up is an initial spin sound with a little clicking (hard disk) but then nothing but the spin sound. So it starts to get data from the disk (I am guessing) but then stops?

I guess one way of checking if the hard disk is hosed is to try to hook it up as a slave to another mac and see if it mounts... but unfortunately I don't know anyone that I can immediately check that with.

Oh, what would be the benefit of testing a PCI Video card? to check that the internal video card hasn't died? But even if the video card has died there is something in addition that is preventing the machine from booting (from the hard disk, the CD, and the floppy).

Cheers

[Cipher13]

Unfortunately... the signs, as I read them, point to motherboard and hard disk failure... seemingly, the HD first.

I still get the feeling though that one is causing/perpetuating the other

You're gonna need another machine/drive to test this fully, I think.

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>Unfortunately... the signs, as I read them, point to motherboard and hard disk failure... seemingly, the HD first.

I still get the feeling though that one is causing/perpetuating the other

You're gonna need another machine/drive to test this fully, I think.</STRONG>

Yes, it is looking very bad to me as well. The fact that the 6500 doesn't want to zap the PRAM (with or without the hard disk) makes this look worse. I may get an opportunity at the beginning of November to test this more fully: to test the drive in another machine, to test a different drive in this machine. But till then I think I will have to resign myself to thinking that this machine is hosed.

Thanks for the time and effort you put into helping me with this. I sincerely appreciate it. You are the man! I'd give you a 5-star rating if these boards had kept the member rating system.

[Cipher13]

I really wanna get into the firmware... I have no clue why but something tells me the firmware is messed.

Hmm... wanna try a last ditch effort?

How many RAM chips do you have? (at least 2 I hope; if not, no worries)

Hehe, thanks - anytime
Thats what I'm here for

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>I really wanna get into the firmware... I have no clue why but something tells me the firmware is messed.

Hmm... wanna try a last ditch effort?

How many RAM chips do you have? (at least 2 I hope; if not, no worries)

Hehe, thanks - anytime
Thats what I'm here for </STRONG>

OK!

Yes, I have two ram chips: both at 32 MB. What do I do?

[Cipher13]

Excellent (sorry for the late reply... got a bit sidetracked with the ex. *****)

Disconnect all power, wait 2 minutes. Take the chips out. Wait another 5. Put them back in the OPPOSITE slots - put slot A where B used to be, and put slot B where A used to be.

Cross your fingers, and boot up...

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Cipher13 ]

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>Excellent.

Disconnect all power, wait 2 minutes. Take the chips out. Wait another 5. Put them back in the OPPOSITE slots - put slot A where B used to be, and put slot B where A used to be.

Cross your fingers, and boot up...</STRONG>

OK, sounds simple... but before I do this can I ask, is this risky at all? am I likely to fry something beyond repair this way?

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Retrograde:
<STRONG>

OK, sounds simple... but before I do this can I ask, is this risky at all? am I likely to fry something beyond repair this way?</STRONG>

Nope. Not if the power is off.

Ground yourself - touch something metal inside the case, like a frame somewhere. Don't touch the chips without doing that (discharges static - RAM chips are very sensitive to static electricity).

It will, hopefully, reset your Open Firmware... not that I have any real hope that it's the problem, but hey... it's worth a try, right?

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>

Nope. Not if the power is off.

Ground yourself - touch something metal inside the case, like a frame somewhere. Don't touch the chips without doing that (discharges static - RAM chips are very sensitive to static electricity).

It will, hopefully, reset your Open Firmware... not that I have any real hope that it's the problem, but hey... it's worth a try, right?</STRONG>

Excellent. That's all I needed to know... all right, I'm goin' in

[Retrograde]

Looks like I'm plain out of luck

I'm afraid that switching the ram cards did not help. I tried zapping the PRAM again but was unable and tried booting from the CD drive without success. Looks like I'm shagged.

Well, thanks for helping with a last ditch effort and again for all the advice and attentive help. Cheers!

[Cipher13]

It's my pleasure... lemme know how it goes

I'll look into this further... we'll get it. Don't you worry.

[Retrograde]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>It's my pleasure... lemme know how it goes

I'll look into this further... we'll get it. Don't you worry.</STRONG>

Absolutely! I will let you know if I turn up anything new about this or if I find a solution. All the best...