[Cody Dawg]

Monique, yes I have help because I'm married so it makes the work split in half on some days.

But, Monique, I was a single mother for a long time before I remarried. Many years in fact. I know what it's like to be a single mother and having to do everything, be everything, and take care of everything.

All I'm saying is that if you need someone to talk to you can PM me and I'll call you, that's all.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Monique

It is not only the vomiting, it makes you so tired that you can barely walk or get out of bed. But, again it depends on each person. Some women have perfect pregnancies and are barely sick. Some are sick 9 months in a row. Cody you were very lucky you had someone else to do all your housekeeping work and earn a living for your family. I am totally alone and will not get any help at all. I get sick on chemeo. I loose my job, no insurance, who is going to pay the rent, the utilities, my debts, my food (although I would not be able to eat and in consequence have one seizure after the other), my bus pass (no money for transit, no money for taxi cabs). You do not really think that doctors and nurses care and will come and take care of me in my home, make sure I have food on the table and make sure I am able to pay for my stuff. All they care about it sticking a needle in my arm and drop poison in my veins. As for inhumanity, of course it is not being torture with electricity, but it is barely human. As for doctors, here they open you up mutilate you, close you up and then it is next one.

Wait, so this actually isn't hypothetical?

Eep. I apologize for my earlier, slightly flippant post.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by macintologist

A little OT: What happens when you borrow a lot of money like $15,000 from the bank and then commit suicide. Is there no way for the bank to recover that money from you once you die?

That depends: was the loan solely in the name of the deceased, or are there cosigners or other parties to the loan?

If the loan is solely in the name of the deceased, then the creditors can collect from the deceased's estate, but cannot go any further than the estate itself. For example, they cannot go after the person's heirs directly: if there isn't enough in the estate then the creditor can take whatever there is, but has to swallow the difference.

If there are cosigners or other parties to the loan who are still alive, then responsibility for the debt simply transfers to the living.

[Y3a]

THats why banks etc want you to get life insurance when you borrow a lot of money.

Monique, perhaps a "Support Group" or the like would be helpful. In the larger scheme of things, perhaps God wants you to go thru this for a reason.

[Monique]

I told you guy I am not sick, but I still have no problem with death. I do not find it depressing at all. If I were to die tomorrow, no problems at all.

I do not understand why people have problems with suicide, it is not your life, you want to live through hell just for 15 more minutes, your choice not everyone wants to do it.

[The Godfather]

The original post started with "What would you do if...". So you must be referring to us when you ask this.

[finboy]

The suicide thing: it's the ultimate selfish act.

If faced with the same decision, I would go in the direction that would be least painful/harmful to my family. Once you have a wife (spouse) and kids, it's not about you anymore. Especially with kids. I have to take EVERY chance to keep my life, for them.

[moodymonster]

I would fight it:

Lance Armstrong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't have much faith in people/doctors saying you can't do something.

But... who knows how I'd react until in that situation... I have been in bad situations, and been in Intensive Care... there's always been the light at the end of the tunnel though...

[James L]

Now, let's look at the OTHER side of the coin.

I see, everyday at work, people being kept alive by family members who simply cannot let go.

I am not talking about a 50 year old man, who has just been told he has cancer and is now considering his treatment options. It would be cowardly of this man, imho, to commit suicide this early in his diagnosis, when so many people beat cancer every year.

I am talking more now about the person in a coma, the person who has been sedated by the physician and is on a ventilator, etc.

Hell, for that matter, I am talking about the 94 year old lady with dementia, whose family now makes decisions for her.

It is ridiculous, imho, to fight to keep people alive who are at their time to go. It is a difficult decision to sign do not resuscitate orders for a loved one, and to let them go when the time comes, but all too often I see family fighting to hold onto somebody when they shouldn't.

[Kerrigan]

I think your big problem, Monique, is life in general. Go find some hobbies, go meet new people, take a more positive view of the place where you live. Don't escape into these fantasies of killing yourself, or moving off to England and France on borrowed money. (You've frequently talked about borrowing money and moving to Europe)

You're bilingual, net savvy, conversant in moral and philosophical issues; there has to be a way for you to create an interesting life for yourself.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by James L

It is ridiculous, imho, to fight to keep people alive who are at their time to go.

True, but who defines when it's a person's "time to go"? Does anyone but the person herself have that right? If the person can't make that decision, is it anyone's right to make it for them? We're talking about the ultimate irreversible decision here.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Millennium

True, but who defines when it's a person's "time to go"? Does anyone but the person herself have that right? If the person can't make that decision, is it anyone's right to make it for them? We're talking about the ultimate irreversible decision here.

I agree, in principle, with you.

Having said that, there is principle, and there is the real world.

Here is an example I encounter weekly at work. It is a long story, but hopefully worth your time to read.

Grandma is 94 years old. Her medical history includes 2 previous heart attacks, with an angioplasty and a coronary artery bypass graft. She is arthritic, and has had a gradual decline into dementia over the last 10 years. She has copd due to decades of smoking, and now her lungs function poorly.

Grandma, who has been widowed for years, is now going to an extended care facility due to her general weakness, difficulty and painful moving due to her arthritis, shortness of breath on exertion due to her copd, and most of all due to her dementia.

While doing the intake and assessment, the doctor discusses what degree of intervention the family wants for their grandmother. After hearing the options they say "we love grandma, we want everything done that can be done if she gets sick or is critically ill. We couldn't live without her".

The doctor tries to explain that everything done is an extreme, given grandma's age and health condition. They are adamant.

6 months later, grandma collapses on the floor at her care facility. Staff assess her, and find her to be in cardiac arrest. cpr is started. Paramedics arrive, and cpr is continued while equipment is readied. Grandma has an endotracheal tube slid through her vocal cords, into her trachea. Two large i.v.'s are initiated, and drugs are pushed through the intravenous. Grandma is ventilated, medicated, has ongoing chest compressions, and is defibrillated numerous times.

After 20 minutes, paramedics have regained spontaneous circulation. Grandma is still not breathing, and is obviously still unconscious. At the hospital, a third i.v. is started, an ng tube is passed up grandma's nose and down into her stomach, and a foley catheter is inserted into her urethra to drain her bladder. Grandma, her heart rhythm now stabilized, is placed on a ventilator and transferred upstairs to the icu, where it is determined that she had a heart attack, but is a poor candidate for surgery to repair her heart due to her age and poor health.

Grandma is now 94 years old. She has 4 broken ribs from the cpr chest compressions, a cracked sternum, and lung contusions. She has a hairline fracture on her right hip from the fall. When grandma finally begins breathing on her own, wakes up, and is taken off the ventilator, she says every breath hurts due to her chest injuries. After a while it is apparent that she is more confused than before. Further tests reveal neurological deficits, due to the hypoxia before she was resuscitated.

Grandma eventually returns to her care facility. She can now barely walk, due to her new hip injury. Any exertion, even transferring from a wheel chair to the toilet, is painfully exhausting due to her damaged heart muscle. She is irritable, combative, and depressed... new neurological behaviours due to her brain damage. Grandma is basically bed ridden now, more confused, and unable to walk several steps. She is eventually unable to move much at all, and remains in bed with a foley catheter for urine drainage.

But hey, her family has her alive now because after all... they couldn't live without her.

The above story seems extreme, but I promise you it plays out daily across the world.

Grandma was 94. She was already ill. Her quality of life before this episode was poor. She was demented. The respectful thing to do would be to let her pass peacefully. Instead, due to her families inability to live without her, she was surrounded by ems personal, had chest trauma due to the compressions, causing bones to snap in her chest. She had tubes shoved into her throat, arms, and urethra. She was electrocuted. She was resuscitated with damaged heart muscle, and had even worse quality of life afterwords.

I am ALL for resuscitating 60 year olds, 20 year olds, and anybody that wants it. BUT, the reality is most children will need to decide what is best for thier parents at some point, and I think we need to base our decision on what is best or them, and not for us.

Cheers,

James

[pyrite]

talk to God, then stay alive as long as you can, no matter what treatments you have to endure. do stuff you always wanted to do and never got a chance to, even if it's in a wheelchair. suicide is never a 'good' option, whatever the alternative may entail (i'm not on a moral high-horse here, it's just the way i see it).
and people will deny it, but the single most important thing to discover before you die is God, he will bring you peace and strength and make your life complete (excuse the chiche), answering the probing question of what's beyond death. i'd hate to die without answering that.

other than that, max out your credit card, eat heaps of junk food, spend plenty of time with your family and play as many video games as you can!!
life is beautiful

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I think your big problem, Monique, is life in general. Go find some hobbies, go meet new people, take a more positive view of the place where you live. Don't escape into these fantasies of killing yourself, or moving off to England and France on borrowed money. (You've frequently talked about borrowing money and moving to Europe)

You're bilingual, net savvy, conversant in moral and philosophical issues; there has to be a way for you to create an interesting life for yourself.

he has a point

[Y3a]

James L is EXACTLY RIGHT! All of us die. You are a better candidate for death the older you are. My Grandmother was sick of just living with no purpose day to day from when My grandfather died in 1988. She died in 2003. She had a piece of paper on her mirror with her wishes. It said DO NOT RECECITATE! No tubes! She did NOT want to be kept alive artificially. She had a bad stroke, and couldn't talk. She refused tube feeding, and water, slipped into a coma and died 5 days later - whith dignity.

[Cody Dawg]

I went to see my grandmother who had Alzheimers at the age of 84 while she was in an assisted living facility.

There she was, laying all withered and skinny beyond belief, in a plain room without her glasses on. She was muttering to herself. She didn't know who I was and she didn't have her glasses on and she couldn't see. She couldn't communicate at all. She could only mutter something unintelligible. I sat next to her in shock and stroked her face and her hair and at one point she pushed me away and said, "No! No! Get back!" I took it to mean that she was cognizant enough to somehow recognize me and didn't want me to see her that way (I hadn't seen her for quite a while).

The room smelled slightly of urine, the light was muted, and there was no television in the room. They left that poor woman in there during the day like that, all day, and sometimes wheeled her out for an hour of television. They fed her mashed foods like a baby. She had to wear adult diapers.

Do I want to go like that?

HELL NO!

I would rather hit a tree, die of cancer earlier in life, or just have a freak accident happen. I'd rather have a Sony battery in my PowerBook explode and blow my head off than go like that.

So many of the aged develop dementia - that is my worst nightmare.

My husband's father last year decided that he wanted to die at the age of 67. He was a lifelong smoker and had developed terrible emphysema. He was at the point where he needed oxygen. He was a proud old cowboy and the thought of being hooked up to an oxygen tank was enough for him to say that he wanted to cash in his chips. We all begged and pleaded for him to let us help him, but he refused. He refused to eat food. He would drink water and take a bite now and then, but he wasted away. Hospice finally came at week 6 and said that it was his right to do what he was doing, that emphysema, though highly treatable, was considered terminal eventually and it was his right to die. That was down in the Southwest.

Anyway, we sure miss that old guy. That was a hard time. He had a lot of life left in him, he'd have brought us a lot of joy, and 67 is young compared to others. Still, he wanted to go under his terms, without machines, so he did.

Sigh.

[ghporter]

I have had the painful duty of having several pets put to sleep over the years because their health was failing and there was nothing that could be done for them except to extend their discomfort/pain/misery. It hurt like I can't even describe. Every time. But THEY were the ones really suffering, and it was THEIR interests I had to think about. I miss them terribly, but cannot imagine how I could live with myself if I'd gone to extreme measures to prolong their lives in agony.

With all that said, how can a person insist on keeping a FAMILY MEMBER alive and in significant pain? Apparently a lot of people are way too selfish to think about their beloved family member's pain...

This is also a good reminder of why a living will/advance directive is imperitive. A LEGALLY ENFORCABLE DOCUMENT that states what you want will not only prevent your selfish relatives from keeping you in pain, it will help the non-selfish ones feel better about doing the right thing.

Cody, I agree that a quick and unexpected death is much preferable to a long and drawn out one. But I hope my "sudden" departure happens a LONG time from now. I have too much to do right now to even consider dying.

[James L]

Y3a, Cody, ghporter,

Great posts. Thank you for those.

In regards to the original post, I just want to make it clear that I didn't disagree with Monique's concept of an educated person making a decision on what their treatment would or would not be.

I disagreed with her comments that Doctors force inhumane and torturous treatments on patients. Cancer research and treatment has come leaps and bounds in the last decade, and continues to do so. Lives are saved. Husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, and friends are saved by cancer treatment everyday. It is the patient's choice though on what they want their treatment too be.

And, when the patient cannot make up their own mind anymore, I hope the family that is now responsible for making these decisions listens clearly to the doctor who is presenting the options, and makes the best decision FOR THE PATIENT. For many patients the right decision is clear. It just takes a brave, selfless act on the part of the family to make it.

There is nothing worse than having to run a resuscitation on an elderly person whose time really has come... simply because the family couldn't let go. I hate it. My co-workers hate it. But, without legal paperwork or orders from an MD, we HAVE to do it. It is shameful.

Most people live their lives with respect and dignity. We should let them pass the same way sometimes.

Cheers,

James

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Move to the United States and get your drugs for free here. The drug companies all give their drugs away to those in need here in the United States. You just contact them directly and they set it up for those who need them the most. Canada apparently doesn't have that.

...What United States do you live in?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Another bitter Eagles fan emerges from depths. Save it for the T.O. thread.

lol..not bitter...Philly was glad to get rid of him because he was so nuts...seems Buddy Ryan and the Eagles fans were right about TO. He IS nuts...too bad Dallas...you got him now ROFL

[KeriVit]

Originally Posted by goMac

...What United States do you live in?

Yeah, regarding that,aren't some people going to Canada for life-saving drugs that they can't get here?

And Cody if you know how to get free drugs, I know people seriously in need of help buying meds. (Seriously.)

[Kerrigan]

Merck Programs to Help Those in Need

"...the Company provides its medicines and adult vaccines for free or at discounts to people who do not have prescription drug or health insurance coverage and who, without our assistance, cannot afford their Merck medicine and vaccines. This is consistent with Merck's long-held values and traditions of putting patients first."

[neverskatewsandles]

i'd chill out spend some cash on a couple macs use em smash em for the heck of it steal a lamborgini and go on a 5 day cop chace

[KeriVit]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Merck Programs to Help Those in Need

"...the Company provides its medicines and adult vaccines for free or at discounts to people who do not have prescription drug or health insurance coverage and who, without our assistance, cannot afford their Merck medicine and vaccines. This is consistent with Merck's long-held values and traditions of putting patients first."

Thank you for this information. Unfortunately, the person in need's medications are not made by Merck. I will search more.

[JoshuaZ]

I would wait till I start to get bad. Then I would spend some time with my family, throw a big party, and then top myself off at the end of it.

Plus wrap up loose ends.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by KeriVit

Thank you for this information. Unfortunately, the person in need's medications are not made by Merck. I will search more.

Glaxo SmithKline has a prescription assistance program, too. > GlaxoSmithKline USA: For Your Health - Prescription Assistance Programs

I believe all major drug manufacturers have something similar.

[Cody Dawg]

When Mastrap's friend was dealing with colon cancer she needed Avastin. She's in Canada. If she lived in the United States she could have received Avastin for free. But Mastrap and his friends kindly set about to raise the $30K required to treat her with Avastin. Speaking of which, I hope she's doing better.

Thank God Esther is doing better - update.

Some drugs are miracle drugs and it is wonderful when pharmaceutical companies will give the gift of life by sharing what they have for those in need.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

When Mastrap's friend was dealing with colon cancer she needed Avastin. She's in Canada. If she lived in the United States she could have received Avastin for free. But Mastrap and his friends kindly set about to raise the $30K required to treat her with Avastin. Speaking of which, I hope she's doing better.

Thank God Esther is doing better - update.

Some drugs are miracle drugs and it is wonderful when pharmaceutical companies will give the gift of life by sharing what they have for those in need.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

When Mastrap's friend was dealing with colon cancer she needed Avastin. She's in Canada. If she lived in the United States she could have received Avastin for free. But Mastrap and his friends kindly set about to raise the $30K required to treat her with Avastin. Speaking of which, I hope she's doing better.

Thank God Esther is doing better - update.

Some drugs are miracle drugs and it is wonderful when pharmaceutical companies will give the gift of life by sharing what they have for those in need.

Cody, can you send me a link to where this drug is given free in the US? A co-worker in the states was asking when I discussed this thread with her.

Cheers,

James

[Spliffdaddy]

Avastin is produced by Genentech

For eligible patients who are treated in the United States, Genentech will provide product to those who cannot afford to pay. All of Genentech's products are covered by the Genentech Access to Care Foundation, except for Pulmozyme® (dornase alfa, recombinant), which is covered by the Genentech Endowment for Cystic Fibrosis.

For consideration of eligibility for resources from the Genentech® Access to Care Foundation, the patient must meet eligibility criteria including income restrictions. Please direct requests for applications forms and more specific information on eligibility to:

Genentech Access to Care Foundation
1 DNA Way, MS #13A
South San Francisco, CA 94080
(800) 530-3083
FAX: (650) 225-1366

Genentech: About Us - Corporate Giving - Genentech Access to Care Foundation

[Cody Dawg]

You're always the guy with the info and links.

Thanks, Spliffdaddy.

[Spliffdaddy]

google is my friend

[Spliffdaddy]

If a drug doesn't exist to cure what ails you - ask your doctor about participating in clinical trials. When my mother's arthritis stopped responding to the very best medicine available she was able to find relief in an experimental drug therapy.

I never gave arthritis much thought until I saw how it affected her life. There *are* drugs out there that can help. The cost is unrealistic, however. The one she stopped responding to was over $2300 per month. The hospital agreed to accept whatever her insurance covered - which was roughly half that amount. The difference it made in her life was worth $2300 per month, in my opinion. Anyhow, I keep my fingers crossed that this clinical trial yields another worthwhile arthritis drug.


I keep my computers running Sengent's D2OL client...hoping to find a cure for um, lemme see here...it's currently working on a target for Avian Flu H5N1.

[James L]

Thanks Spliffdaddy,

I will pass it on.

So, this isn't a US versus Canada versus France versus Ireland thing at all (it does not appear to have anything to do with government, but with private enterprise).

This is a private company choosing to provide the drug to people in need in the US for free, but not choosing to help people of other nationalities.

I wonder what their motivation is for this? If they were truly being good citizens, you think they would do this world wide. I have worked in health care for way to long to think that pharmaceutical companies have altruistic motivations.

Tax break?

[PB2K]

i support euthanesia, has anyone ever seen the Swiss model ? A patient is monitored for many years until qualified doctors decide to make an end to the suffering from a physical illness, the patient has to write a final statement that he wants his life terminated. Mental illnesses do not qualify for euthanesia, never.

[Cody Dawg]

James L.

The reason the companies do this here is because a predominant amount of them are companies that are operating in this country. We have more pharmaceutical labs here than anywhere else in the world.

We don't give the drugs in other countries (for free) because some of those countries have laws and regulations that prevent it. I know because I called the company that manufactures Avastin to see if Mastrap's friend could have it for free in Canada and the answer was no and it was a long and lengthy explanation and it hinged on governmental laws for the most part.

Most pharmaceutical companies will give their drugs for free to people in need, even if they don't formally say so. Since we have more pharmaceutical companies here than anywhere else in the world, it makes sense that Americans or people living here in the United States would have more options for help.

[stwain2003]

Originally Posted by smacintush

First of all, although many succumb to cancer before the treatment is complete, the treatment itself isn't usually the cause of death.





I have no problem with suicide itself, I guess it would depend on my situation. Your example is a little vague.

I knew a guy who had diabetes and was a hemophiliac. In the '80's he got HIV from a blood transfusion, which he of course passed on to his wife. She apparently was resentful of taking care of his needs and of his passing on HIV to her because she nagged him constantly. Then he got full-blown AIDS and in less than a year found out he had cancer.

He took his own head off with a shotgun. I'd say he made a perfectly sane decision.

I'd say he didn't cause I'm willing to bet you he's in hell right now.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by stwain2003

I'd say he didn't cause I'm willing to bet you he's in hell right now.

It's your right to have differing opinions. But let's not get into implications of suicide in YOUR religion, ok? Not everyone feels the same way...

I'd guess that you'd say "no" to suicide in any and all situations, right? I'm not so sure that would be even the best position for a devout Catholic, because you can define "suicide" to include a number or actions that do not involve the individual personally taking his or her own life, but that virtually guarantee death as a result of their actions. Always mistrust absolutes!

[stwain2003]

Hey. This is a thread on whether suicide is right or not in a certain situation. I stated my opinion on all situations, and I don't agree with you telling me not to post my opinion. Other people can post what they think is right or wrong and I have no objection.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ghporter

It's your right to have differing opinions. But let's not get into implications of suicide in YOUR religion, ok? Not everyone feels the same way...

I'd guess that you'd say "no" to suicide in any and all situations, right? I'm not so sure that would be even the best position for a devout Catholic, because you can define "suicide" to include a number or actions that do not involve the individual personally taking his or her own life, but that virtually guarantee death as a result of their actions. Always mistrust absolutes!

smacintush offered his opinion, why isn't stwain2003 allowed to?

You certainly felt justified in offering your opinion. I don't condemn you for that.

Note, I am not offering my opinion on suicide here, simply commenting on your chastising stwain2003 and yet still offering your own opinion.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by stwain2003

I'd say he didn't cause I'm willing to bet you he's in hell right now.

[Gamoe]

Don't want to get too deep now in this conversation, but I will say this:

Where there is life, there is hope.