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cars.gov government scam
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Buckaroo
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Aug 2, 2009, 01:37 PM
 
Governments Cash for Clunkers program.

The Privacy Act and Security Statement that you agree too when accessing the web site presents the following warnings when:

"This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the U.S. Governement.

Any or all uses of this system [including your computer] and all files on this system may be intercepted, monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to authorized CARS, DoT, and law enforcement personnel, as well as authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqfuZ7hiap0

Now I'm sure someone made a stupid error when they created this warning, but it is for real.
     
turtle777
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Aug 2, 2009, 01:41 PM
 
Yeah, WTF ?

Actually, 2 WTFs:

1) WTF to the government putting out user agreements like that

2) WTF to that chick talking about how the government takes over control of your computer

-t
     
stumblinmike
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Aug 2, 2009, 03:57 PM
 
Consider the source(s): Beck and Goldberg! There misrepresenting (again) so you wingnuts will get all crazy! Consumers DONT go to that website. Dealers do. We all know how trustworthy auto dealers are. The govt. is attempting to protect taxpayer dollars from some car salesmen! Now go get some rest!
     
turtle777
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Aug 2, 2009, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
Consider the source(s): Beck and Goldberg! There misrepresenting (again) so you wingnuts will get all crazy! Consumers DONT go to that website. Dealers do. We all know how trustworthy auto dealers are. The govt. is attempting to protect taxpayer dollars from some car salesmen! Now go get some rest!
You can't just fault Beck and Goldberg for stupid government policy.

That cars.gov disclaimer is total bullsh!t. No business should subject itself to those terms. It would be reckless for any dealership to agree to those terms.

Edit: I'm on cars.gov right now, and I can't find that disclaimer and agreement to come up anywhere.
Does anybody have a direct link ?

-t
     
stumblinmike
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Aug 2, 2009, 04:04 PM
 
Get used to it. Bless you, President Obama!
     
stumblinmike
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Aug 2, 2009, 04:05 PM
 
Beck/Goldberg fooled you, t! Come over from the dark side...
     
Buckaroo  (op)
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Aug 2, 2009, 09:34 PM
 
I don't know if the text was in the text that you accept or if it was a warning after you click it.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone finally wised up and jumped in and deleted it after the news story.


Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
You can't just fault Beck and Goldberg for stupid government policy.

That cars.gov disclaimer is total bullsh!t. No business should subject itself to those terms. It would be reckless for any dealership to agree to those terms.

Edit: I'm on cars.gov right now, and I can't find that disclaimer and agreement to come up anywhere.
Does anybody have a direct link ?

-t
     
Buckaroo  (op)
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Aug 2, 2009, 09:36 PM
 
The warning is when you are at cars.gov/dealearsupport and select Submit Transaction. It is very disturbing that the gov would use this type of tactic to gather more personal information from dealers working for carh for clunkers.
Source(s):
cars.gov/dealersupport You can see the submit transaction and click it for yourself. I wouldn't go beyond that though.........
     
turtle777
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Aug 2, 2009, 09:40 PM
 
K, thanks. Yeah, that's bullsh!t.

-t
     
Buckaroo  (op)
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Aug 2, 2009, 09:40 PM
 
http://www.cars.gov/files/TheRule.pdf

I guess it's buried somewhere in there.

Happy reading.
     
Buckaroo  (op)
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Aug 2, 2009, 09:53 PM
 
I found this information from someone else:

https://supplierpayments.esc.gov/OA_...gsk17LptZc1LOg

yep it is indeed clear as crystall

This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the United States Government. It is for authorized use only. Users (authorized or unauthorized) have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy.

Any or all uses of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted, monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to authorized CARS, DoT, and law enforcement personnel, as well as authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign. By using this system, the user consents to such interception, monitoring, recording, copying, auditing, inspection, and disclosure at the discretion CARS or the DoT personnel.

Unauthorized or improper use of this system may result in administrative disciplinary action and civil and criminal penalties.

Unauthorized attempts to defeat or circumvent security features, to use the system for other than intended purposes, to deny service to authorized users, to access, obtain, alter, damage, or destroy information, or otherwise to interfere with the system or its operation are prohibited. Evidence of such acts may be disclosed to law enforcement authorities and result in criminal prosecution under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986 (Public Law 99-474) and the National Information Infrastructure Protection Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-294), (18 U.S.C. 1030), or other applicable criminal laws.


when you are logged on to the system your portal is considered part of the fed system. when you log out, it is not part of the system [yeah right, but it does not say this]

seem normal and not scary at all.

thanks for finding it =) my google-foo is not as strong today
( Last edited by Buckaroo; Aug 2, 2009 at 10:30 PM. )
     
Buckaroo  (op)
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Aug 2, 2009, 09:59 PM
 
I think I found it:

https://supplierpayments.esc.gov:443...WeGCk9LqBNM1oA

OMG, it is for real. You never know about these things. It's part of the Cars.gov thing, but the dealer portion for access and submission of claims for disposal. http://www.cars.gov/index.php/dealersupport
( Last edited by Buckaroo; Aug 2, 2009 at 10:06 PM. )
     
turtle777
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Aug 2, 2009, 10:18 PM
 
seem normal and not scary at all.


WTF ?

-t
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Aug 2, 2009, 11:24 PM
 
The whole cash for clunkers thing seems pretty misguided to me anyway- like most bright ideas from government.

Ten bucks says that most dealers end up getting shafted in being repaid by the government.

Ten bucks says that we eventually find out that some shady dealers file billions in fraudulent repayment claims, knowing that dumbass Uncle Sam won't have any effective enforcement mechanism in place.

Ten bucks says that despite whatever requirement to destroy the trade-in clunkers, many of them "vanish" with phony 'destroyed' paperwork, and end up right back on the road as under the table resales, or being parted out to keep other clunkers running that much longer- in other words, ZILCH ZIP NADA environmental impact if that was the goal.

If the goal was either environmental or to stimulate car sales and the economy, why the bullcrap provision the buyer must buy a new car only? Someone trading in a used 1992 smoke stack for, say, a 2006 with far better emissions and mileage would be a more LIKELY trade up for many people of average means, and would accomplish the same pretend goal of getting older clunkers off the road. Allowing used vehicles that meet the same emissions trade-up requirements would have met both stated goals just as well as making it a new car only scam.

Like most things from Team Government, it's simply not well thought out, and when the smoke clears, we'll probably find out that the real world does what it always does- end runs around the shortsightedness of idiot bureaucrats. Of course, the nimrods that voted for it in the first place guaranteed never actually read the bill.
     
Shaddim
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Aug 2, 2009, 11:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Ten bucks says that despite whatever requirement to destroy the trade-in clunkers, many of them "vanish" with phony 'destroyed' paperwork, and end up right back on the road as under the table resales, or being parted out to keep other clunkers running that much longer- in other words, ZILCH ZIP NADA environmental impact if that was the goal.
No bet on that, I know of one dealer that's stripping the vehicles for parts and destroying the body.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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stumblinmike
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Aug 2, 2009, 11:41 PM
 
The party of NO in action...
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Aug 2, 2009, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
The party of NO in action...
Vs. the party of NO BRAINS inaction.
     
stumblinmike
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Aug 2, 2009, 11:54 PM
 
That's the best you got? Show me some more indignation!
     
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Aug 3, 2009, 12:21 AM
 
"He loved Big Brother."
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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OldManMac
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Aug 3, 2009, 07:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
The whole cash for clunkers thing seems pretty misguided to me anyway- like most bright ideas from government.

Ten bucks says that most dealers end up getting shafted in being repaid by the government.

Ten bucks says that we eventually find out that some shady dealers file billions in fraudulent repayment claims, knowing that dumbass Uncle Sam won't have any effective enforcement mechanism in place.

Ten bucks says that despite whatever requirement to destroy the trade-in clunkers, many of them "vanish" with phony 'destroyed' paperwork, and end up right back on the road as under the table resales, or being parted out to keep other clunkers running that much longer- in other words, ZILCH ZIP NADA environmental impact if that was the goal.

If the goal was either environmental or to stimulate car sales and the economy, why the bullcrap provision the buyer must buy a new car only? Someone trading in a used 1992 smoke stack for, say, a 2006 with far better emissions and mileage would be a more LIKELY trade up for many people of average means, and would accomplish the same pretend goal of getting older clunkers off the road. Allowing used vehicles that meet the same emissions trade-up requirements would have met both stated goals just as well as making it a new car only scam.

Like most things from Team Government, it's simply not well thought out, and when the smoke clears, we'll probably find out that the real world does what it always does- end runs around the shortsightedness of idiot bureaucrats. Of course, the nimrods that voted for it in the first place guaranteed never actually read the bill.
But you're an honest, straight-up guy, right, and private businesses would never screw anybody.
     
Big Mac
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Aug 3, 2009, 07:52 AM
 
Instead of wrecking the clunkers, couldn't they be collected by state governments and then given over to the homeless to live in?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Aug 3, 2009, 10:58 AM
 
I'm just curious about the indignation here.

How or why is this any different than government powers re: national security?

When you're logged on to the federal system, your computer is considered a "federal computer." Fine, that's freaky. But under the auspices of national security they can do the same thing, can't they? Exception with no action taken re: logging on to a federal government database?

What am I missing here? You log into a federal database, and your **** is theirs for that duration. How is this more scary than, you know, their powers under national security?

greg
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turtle777
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
What am I missing here? You log into a federal database, and your **** is theirs for that duration. How is this more scary than, you know, their powers under national security?
Difference: the former can be avoided (by choice), the latter can't.

-t
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
Difference: the former can be avoided (by choice), the latter can't.

-t
Huh? Are you saying the government can't use their national security powers to target someone who may be innocent of any wrongdoing? Do you need to be a "threat to national security" before those powers can be used against you?

Isn't that, like, counter-intuitive? How can you be determined to be a threat if they first can't use their national security powers to track your calls/internet usage/whatever? I seem to remember quite a few people who have been arrested or in some way detained/warned about their "private activities" but who had done nothing that could result in charges.

greg
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pooka
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:42 AM
 
I still can't believe that such engineering masterpieces (combustible engines) are being willfully destroyed as some sort of "verification" process. Seems like such an asinine waste of technology. But hey, **** it. If it gets a new Ford on the road and out of the showroom, it was "WORTH" it.

The one ****ING thing that is universally (and without prompting, education or incentive) recycled the world over, and we destroy them and sell the scrap to China. Awesome.

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Chongo
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:46 AM
 
This has already affected charities like Big Brothers/Sisters and the others that people were donating cars to. (rule of unintended consequences at work)
45/47
     
nonhuman
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
The whole cash for clunkers thing seems pretty misguided to me anyway- like most bright ideas from government.
Misguided, yes. But quite effective. I wish even half of government programs were as effective and successful as this one has proven to be.

Ten bucks says that most dealers end up getting shafted in being repaid by the government.
If that were the case, how could they possibly have blown through their entire budget in less than a week? Sure there's still probably a risk of this, but I wouldn't count on it.

Ten bucks says that we eventually find out that some shady dealers file billions in fraudulent repayment claims, knowing that dumbass Uncle Sam won't have any effective enforcement mechanism in place.
Repayment requires matching VIN numbers from both the car and the engine. (I don't have the exact details, but the burden of proof is definitely on the dealers in claiming the funds.)

Ten bucks says that despite whatever requirement to destroy the trade-in clunkers, many of them "vanish" with phony 'destroyed' paperwork, and end up right back on the road as under the table resales, or being parted out to keep other clunkers running that much longer- in other words, ZILCH ZIP NADA environmental impact if that was the goal.
It's possible, but again, fairly extensive documentation (as in over 100 pages) is required for every single car traded in through this program.

If the goal was either environmental or to stimulate car sales and the economy, why the bullcrap provision the buyer must buy a new car only? Someone trading in a used 1992 smoke stack for, say, a 2006 with far better emissions and mileage would be a more LIKELY trade up for many people of average means, and would accomplish the same pretend goal of getting older clunkers off the road. Allowing used vehicles that meet the same emissions trade-up requirements would have met both stated goals just as well as making it a new car only scam.
Because new cars stimulate the economy far more than used cars. And yes, trading in for a used car is more likely, that's why it doesn't require the added incentive. This program, however, has been a tremendous boon for the dealers who want to sell more new cars in order to even come close to meeting their sales numbers from last year, and the manufacturers who are utterly dependent on the sale of new cars over used cars to continue existing.

Like most things from Team Government, it's simply not well thought out, and when the smoke clears, we'll probably find out that the real world does what it always does- end runs around the shortsightedness of idiot bureaucrats. Of course, the nimrods that voted for it in the first place guaranteed never actually read the bill.
Entirely possible, but everything I've heard so far suggests otherwise. The dealers are very happy with this program, and it is doing a good job of stimulating multiple sectors of the economy.
     
turtle777
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Huh? Are you saying the government can't use their national security powers to target someone who may be innocent of any wrongdoing? Do you need to be a "threat to national security" before those powers can be used against you?

Isn't that, like, counter-intuitive? How can you be determined to be a threat if they first can't use their national security powers to track your calls/internet usage/whatever? I seem to remember quite a few people who have been arrested or in some way detained/warned about their "private activities" but who had done nothing that could result in charges.

greg
You misunderstand.

You have a choice in logging in to Federal websites and subjecting yourself to those terms.

You DO NOT have a choice on the government's power under national security be abused to infringe on your privacy.

-t
     
nonhuman
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This has already affected charities like Big Brothers/Sisters and the others that people were donating cars to. (rule of unintended consequences at work)
Donating to Big Brothers/Sisters might make you feel all warm and tingly inside, but it does precisely jack squat for the economy. The government's current priority is reviving the US economy, and this program is doing a good job of helping with that.
     
nonhuman
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Aug 3, 2009, 11:55 AM
 
(Full disclosure: my family is in the auto dealer business.)
     
pooka
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Aug 3, 2009, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This has already affected charities like Big Brothers/Sisters and the others that people were donating cars to. (rule of unintended consequences at work)
Eh, I don't know enough about them to care. Middle-men as far as I'm concerned.

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mduell
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Aug 3, 2009, 12:15 PM
 
The phrase you quoted cannot be found at cars.gov.

Are they talking about this page, at esc.gov not cars.gov, that no consumer ever needs to go to?
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Aug 3, 2009, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
You misunderstand.

You have a choice in logging in to Federal websites and subjecting yourself to those terms.

You DO NOT have a choice on the government's power under national security be abused to infringe on your privacy.

-t
Ummmm... right. That's what I was thinking.

Soooo... why the big fuss about this, but not about national security powers? Last time I checked around here the response seemed to be "oh well, I'm not a terrorist so it doesn't affect me."

Confusing?

greg
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turtle777
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Aug 3, 2009, 12:36 PM
 
I'm against some of the power abuse in the name of national security.

But that's not what this thread is about, is it ?

-t
     
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Aug 3, 2009, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I'm on cars.gov right now, and I can't find that disclaimer and agreement to come up anywhere.
Does anybody have a direct link ?

-t

The gubment now has control of your computer, good job.

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ShortcutToMoncton
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Aug 3, 2009, 12:46 PM
 
Agreed. Just seemed weird to me, because I haven't seen this much outrage over something like national security powers. Especially so since this instance seems very limited and, in some ways, somewhat justified.

(In the sense that people using a federal database are subject to a high level of scrutiny.)

On that note, though, would be interested to find out whether these disclaimer could be used to catch people, say, with child pornography or some other illegal activity. It would be a great "screener" for illegal activity!

greg
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ebuddy
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Aug 3, 2009, 09:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
Consider the source(s): Beck and Goldberg! There misrepresenting (again) so you wingnuts will get all crazy! Consumers DONT go to that website. Dealers do. We all know how trustworthy auto dealers are. The govt. is attempting to protect taxpayer dollars from some car salesmen! Now go get some rest!
Of course consumers DON'T go to that website. Consumers GO TO THE DEALERS! You know, the ones who keep the files of their consumers on their computer/Federal property.

Pelosi and Reid! Theirere misrepresenting (again) so you pinko-commie libs will get all frenzied about another Krisiss. We all know how trustworthy the government is; after all it was only what... 8 months ago that we were talking about sivil rights abuses, privassy violation, waiste, frod, Krisiss sales, etc...
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ebuddy
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Aug 3, 2009, 09:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
I still can't believe that such engineering masterpieces (combustible engines) are being willfully destroyed as some sort of "verification" process. Seems like such an asinine waste of technology. But hey, **** it. If it gets a new Ford on the road and out of the showroom, it was "WORTH" it.

The one ****ING thing that is universally (and without prompting, education or incentive) recycled the world over, and we destroy them and sell the scrap to China. Awesome.
I couldn't agree with you more. On top of the colossal mindfxxx you cited, we're destroying a product only those with less money will be able to afford while bloating costs in the used car market. Asinine.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 4, 2009, 01:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
But you're an honest, straight-up guy, right, and private businesses would never screw anybody.
That made no sense whatsoever.

Reading posts from you is a bit like spam emails. One suspects there might actually be some human brain activity behind it rather than just random bot-generated spew, but just barely. I almost halfway expect you pitch a scheme to deposit $12.6 million dollars in my account from whichever member of the Zimbabwe royal family you represent.
     
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Aug 4, 2009, 01:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Misguided, yes. But quite effective. I wish even half of government programs were as effective and successful as this one has proven to be.
Well, I guess t'would be nice if all other govt programs would blow through their budgets in a week, rather than wasting astronomically higher amounts over decades.



If that were the case, how could they possibly have blown through their entire budget in less than a week? Sure there's still probably a risk of this, but I wouldn't count on it.
I'd be very happy to be wrong and lose my ten dollar bets.

But somehow I'm not that impressed by a program that stimulates the economy in a week by relying on taxpayer funded destruction of working automobiles, so that people with enough money to buy a new car can get one. Now, if we call it "stimulating auto sales, at least for a week or two"- sure, I guess by that measure it's a huge success.
     
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Aug 4, 2009, 04:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Of course consumers DON'T go to that website. Consumers GO TO THE DEALERS! You know, the ones who keep the files of their consumers on their computer/Federal property.

Pelosi and Reid! Theirere misrepresenting (again) so you pinko-commie libs will get all frenzied about another Krisiss. We all know how trustworthy the government is; after all it was only what... 8 months ago that we were talking about sivil rights abuses, privassy violation, waiste, frod, Krisiss sales, etc...
I'll chalk this up to you drinking since your arguments (even if wrong at times) are much more thought out and articulated.
I like my water with hops, malt, hops, yeast, and hops.
     
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Aug 4, 2009, 04:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
That made no sense whatsoever.

Reading posts from you is a bit like spam emails. One suspects there might actually be some human brain activity behind it rather than just random bot-generated spew, but just barely. I almost halfway expect you pitch a scheme to deposit $12.6 million dollars in my account from whichever member of the Zimbabwe royal family you represent.
While he is pretty far left, there are times where he writes good sense. However, like any person that leans to far in one direction, they may fall over.
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Aug 4, 2009, 06:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Rumor View Post
I'll chalk this up to you drinking since your arguments (even if wrong at times) are much more thought out and articulated.
I appreciate the kudos Rumor. I wish I could say I was drinking, but the sad fact of the matter is that I simply lack patience for the kind of mindless tripe that goes on around here sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I have tons of patience for stupid because of course I can't be expected to be right all the time.

Stupid and belligerent, now that's just intolerable.
ebuddy
     
stumblinmike
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Aug 4, 2009, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Stupid and belligerent, now that's just intolerable.
You've made Glen Beck very proud, buddy.
     
ebuddy
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Aug 4, 2009, 10:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
You've made Glen Beck very proud, buddy.
fgpo'uftrydlgMichaelMooreih[l,goerdsaxzopklfg
ebuddy
     
stumblinmike
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Aug 4, 2009, 10:33 PM
 
Stop your drinking, man. You have a dearth of brain cells to begin with!
     
ebuddy
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Aug 4, 2009, 10:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
Stop your drinking, man. You have a dearth of brain cells to begin with!
pblkutyeopsd'pamncbv
ebuddy
     
Laminar
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Aug 5, 2009, 12:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
Stop your drinking, man. You have a dearth of brain cells to begin with!
This coming from the guy that posts nothing but lame, worthless one-liners followed by an emoticon.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Aug 5, 2009, 12:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
The whole cash for clunkers thing seems pretty misguided to me anyway- like most bright ideas from government.
Do you work in government?

If not, stop being a busybody because you have no basis for criticizing them. Put your money where your mouth is and get yourself elected and then you can talk.

greg
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
turtle777
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Aug 5, 2009, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Do you work in government?

If not, stop being a busybody because you have no basis for criticizing them. Put your money where your mouth is and get yourself elected and then you can talk.

greg


I guess I should stop talking badly about drug dealers, rapists, criminals etc...

-t
     
 
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