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Thade · 11:19 AM

Hi all. Can I expect a decnt speed bump going from a G4 dual 450, Radeon 8500 64MB, 80 gig 7200 RPM, 512 RAM to a mac mini? My main machine has been a pretty beefy PC. I bought the G4 to learn OSX. Until recently it's been in the basement as an iTunes machine but upon the announcement of the mini, I pulled it upstairs as my main surfing machine. I would probably use the mini for surfing, iphoto & iMovie. I'm still a mac newb in a lot of ways so I'm not sure how the mini would stack up in terms of performance. I ran Xbench and my overall score was about 1/2 of the score I saw posted for the mini.... somewhere in the 70s but the min i had a gig of ram. Will I appreciate the difference running basic X and iApps? Is it worth it to upgrade the old G4? If so, what to add??

TIA

Jeff

bartman00 · Jan 17, 2005, 04:50 PM

From personal experiance.. I'd say no. I have a AGP graphics Powermac like yours. It used to be a single 450 upgraded to a dual 500 then upgraded to a single 1.3

I'd say the cost of buying the single 1.3 over the dual 500 was not worth it. The cash would have been better spent waiting for a faster machine or buying some icecream. Also the mini has a slow laptop hard drive at 4200rpm, it'll make things feel really slow. Your 8500 is also much faster.

Bart

larkost · Jan 17, 2005, 05:27 PM

First off: upgraded computers will never be even close to one that came with that processor to begin with. Your dual 450 has slower memory, busses, etc... why people believe that the number on the processor is the only thing that really matters I will never understand. So the Mac Mini will likely be noticeably faster than that computer, especially since most of the tasks described are mostly single threaded, and thus will not benefit by themselves from the second processor (as long as you are only doing one of them at a time, which describes most people).

Don't wast money upgrading the G4... upgrades are rarely worth the money, either on the PC side or the mac. They are the great white myth.

tooki · Jan 17, 2005, 07:49 PM

That blanket statement is wrong. I agree that CPU upgrades are seldom worthwhile, but RAM and hard drive upgrades are cheap and beneficial.

Also, in Mac OS X, tons of things are going on at the same time, and pretty much all of Apple's apps are multithreaded, and the OS most decidedly is. Dual processors really make Mac OS X responsive, even if the cumulative CPU power is lower than that of a fast single-CPU machine.

As for the original question: the Mac mini has a faster CPU, but dual-processor machines just run so smoothly on OS X. I'd keep the Power Mac, but add 512MB more RAM to it, and possibly a new, fast hard disk. (A modern 3.5" hard disk will have more responsive I/O than the 2.5" 4200RPM drive in the Mac mini.) You could upgrade the RAM for about $100, which would speed up OS X a LOT, and have a perfectly nice machine. Then get a new Mac in a year or two.

tooki

villalobos · Jan 18, 2005, 01:31 PM

My 1.2 GHz Gigadesign upgrade has done wonder to my DA audio (originally 533 MHz). Yes you will se a difference, and a huge one in everyday usage (browsing, iTunes and other). Increasing RAM, upgrading HD and GPU (8500 is good) is also a must. You already set with that. Maybe another 512 MB but the rest looks good.

edit: Basically rewrote what Tooki already mentionned.. oops.

barang · Jan 18, 2005, 03:37 PM

It used to be a single 450 upgraded to a dual 500 then upgraded to a single 1.3

How can you upgrade from a single processor to a dual, back to a single again?

Luca Rescigno · Jan 18, 2005, 04:00 PM

By removing the original processor, installing a dual processor upgrade, and then subsequently removing the dual upgrade and installing a new single processor upgrade.

Both processors are kept on the same card. It's not like your typical x86 computer where dual processor models actually have two processor sockets on the motherboard.

I'd say keep the G4. A processor upgrade will be nice, but not necessary. Since you already have spent the money on upgrades for your basic components (RAM, hard drive, video card, etc), upgrading to a mini won't make much sense. You'll see a slight speed improvement, but not enough of one to justify the expense.

The mini is best for people who have a really low end Mac (a G3 iMac, maybe an old beige one, or a bone-stock Sawtooth G4), or for people switching from Windows. Maybe you'd consider getting one if you had been thinking about getting a used G4 tower instead, but there's little reason to upgrade.

Thade · Jan 18, 2005, 05:07 PM

This is all very helpful...Thanks! I did a bit of research on processor upgrades and it IS pricey plus I'd be throwing perfectly good dual 450s on the shelf. RAM is the cheapest upgrade but where's the WOW factor in buying more dated RAM? RAM doesn't look cool

The only thing that scares me about the mini is the performance hit on the HD and video. I may just lay low until some real people start receiving their minis...maybe a G5 iMac.... decisions decisions. Either way, all the buzz about the mini has revived my mac enthusiasm.

Jeff

italiano · Jan 18, 2005, 08:28 PM

I replaced my dual 450 with a single OWC 1.2 ghz. chip - added a RADEON 9800 Pro - and Man she's a sweet ride

I highly recommend an upgrade - it's not that expensive now for the 1.2 chips... my dual was my "baby" but the single 1.2 ghz. is definately faster - and adding the Radeon 9800 Pro is the best bang I've seen on this puppy...

Eriamjh · Jan 20, 2005, 08:14 PM

I'd say the PM is marginally faster, but much more expandable and upgradeable.

Drop in a dual upgrade, up the RAM, and be happy.

UnixMac · 11:18 PM

I recently sold a dual 500mhz with 1GB RAM and two Drives (40 & 80GB) that really wan't too bad when you think about it. It was quite snappy on OS X, and when you consider it's a 500mhz machine, a PC with windows 95 or 98 would have been a lot slower.

I would upgrade the processors but if you get 1 more Gig of RAM and add a second drive (move your itunes, iphoto, etc to the second drive).. and you'll experience a serious speed increase.

macaddict0001 · Jan 21, 2005, 04:14 AM

Upgrade the ram and hard drive and it will "feel" 2-3 times as fast. Even though xbench won't say its much faster. I would recommend a 80 gig 7200 rpm drive and a 512 stick of ram.

macmad · Jan 21, 2005, 08:33 AM

Thade: Can I expect a decnt speed bump going from a G4 dual 450, Radeon 8500 64MB, 80 gig 7200 RPM, 512 RAM to a mac mini?

macaddict0001: I would recommend a 80 gig 7200 rpm drive and a 512 stick of ram.

Did you read the original post?

macaddict0001 · Jan 21, 2005, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by macmad:
Did you read the original post?

Yes I was recommending another one.

deboerjo · Jan 21, 2005, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by larkost:
First off: upgraded computers will never be even close to one that came with that processor to begin with. Your dual 450 has slower memory, busses, etc... why people believe that the number on the processor is the only thing that really matters I will never understand. So the Mac Mini will likely be noticeably faster than that computer, especially since most of the tasks described are mostly single threaded, and thus will not benefit by themselves from the second processor (as long as you are only doing one of them at a time, which describes most people).

Don't wast money upgrading the G4... upgrades are rarely worth the money, either on the PC side or the mac. They are the great white myth.

I completely disagree. For one thing, modern cache architectures greatly reduce the impact of memory speed on system performance. For example, when I upgraded my Linux PC's motherboard from one with PC100 SDRAM to one with DDR266, I noticed no difference (kept the same 1GHz Athlon). For another thing, the Mini has a very slow CD drive and hard drive. The Mini might perform processor-intensive tasks like games or encoding better, but I would expect application load times and possibly even surfing to be faster on the 450 dual, even without a processor upgrade.

Secondly, processor upgrades are most certainly worth it, especially on the PC. I upgraded my 350MHz Pentium II to a 1.2GHz PIII for $50. I'd say that was worth the money. When the Mini was introduced I had to decide if I would buy one or keep my 450 G4 and upgrade. I'm upgrading. For less than half the cost of the Mini I can get performance out of the G4 that's close enough, and with easily-upgraded drives and 6 drive bays, I have a more capable DVD-RW drive and further expansion in the future is assured.

Thade · Jan 21, 2005, 11:50 AM

I'm still on the fence but if I upgrade the CPU I'm looking at either the 1GHZ or 1.2GHZ sonnet @ Newegg for $209/$279. I'm wondering if the 200MHZ diff of the 1.2 is going to be a noticeale difference for $79.00. I can also bump the RAM to 1G for next to nothing from donations from other machines. If I'm evaluating the upgrade correctly, I should be on par with mac mini performance on processor speed and above mini performance on video & HD. The only edge for the mini being the FSB and cool factor.

J

Here's the 2 upgrades I'm considering. Are there any cheaper/better alternatives? (mac newb here)

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...104-723&depa=8

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...104-724&depa=8

deboerjo · Jan 21, 2005, 12:35 PM

Check out Other World Computing for more options (eshop.macsales.com)

MORT A POTTY · Jan 21, 2005, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Thade:
I'm still on the fence but if I upgrade the CPU I'm looking at either the 1GHZ or 1.2GHZ sonnet @ Newegg for $209/$279. I'm wondering if the 200MHZ diff of the 1.2 is going to be a noticeale difference for $79.00. I can also bump the RAM to 1G for next to nothing from donations from other machines. If I'm evaluating the upgrade correctly, I should be on par with mac mini performance on processor speed and above mini performance on video & HD. The only edge for the mini being the FSB and cool factor.

J

Here's the 2 upgrades I'm considering. Are there any cheaper/better alternatives? (mac newb here)

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...104-723&depa=8

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...104-724&depa=8

there are definitely better alternatives... the giga dual 1.7Ghz 7447A for 800 bucks, or the PowerLogix dual 1.4Ghz 7457 w/ 512K L2 + 2MB L3 per processor. also 800 bucks.

but if you want to spend as little of your money as you can this is the way to go. I wouldn't think that a single 1Ghz upgrade would be worth it when moving from a dual 450. you really should check into the dual processor upgrades. you can get a dual 1Ghz upgrade for 400 and that's something I could recommend.

Lateralus · Jan 21, 2005, 02:03 PM

The Giga Dual 1.7 is only $700, and the PL Dual 1.4 is only $729. FYI.

Superchicken · Jan 21, 2005, 07:12 PM

I would get the mini and upgrade the RAM yourself. Get at least 512 maybe a gig and you're set. I have a 1Ghz PowerBook and I've never had anyone tell me it felt slow when they used it. Heck I don't even notice it being slow, before I had all the 700ish megs of RAM I have it felt laggy, so I wouldn't get the mini with the stock 256, but it'll be a fine comp, I'd much sooner have it than the PM.

SierraDragon · Jan 21, 2005, 07:59 PM

Let me be the first to say it then: A 1 GHz PB is unacceptably slow for aggressive apps like Photoshop. I sold mine and am waiting for the next round of speed bumps.

MORT A POTTY · Jan 21, 2005, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Lateralus:
The Giga Dual 1.7 is only $700, and the PL Dual 1.4 is only $729. FYI.

let me clarify. the dual 1.73Ghz (using actual 1.6Ghz processors) is 800, and is what I was talking about. as for the PowerLogix, you are right, OWC has them for $729. my bad, I appreciate the correction.

MORT A POTTY · Jan 21, 2005, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by SierraDragon:
Let me be the first to say it then: A 1 GHz PB is unacceptably slow for aggressive apps like Photoshop. I sold mine and am waiting for the next round of speed bumps.

there are other various factors that you must also take into account.

4200RPM HD for one.
reduced performance processor (provided you have it set on automatic or power savings or whatever... highest performance is good

)

but that's what I'm saying... I don't think going form a dual 450 to a single 1.0Ghz is worth it.

cje · Jan 21, 2005, 10:30 PM

I have a dual 450 G4 with 1 gb ram, GeForce2MX, 120gb 7200rpm drive and have been looking to get something new as well. I primarily use the machine for design work and it's starting to feel a little pokey compared to the 2.53GHz pc I have here (for games). After reading everything I could find about the mac mini I have come to the conclusion that it's not going to give a significant speed bump compared to what I have now. I thought about a processor upgrade but for what it would cost I figure I might as well just hang on to the mac, save some $ and get either an 20" iMac or a dual 1.8 G5. If I'm going to spend a decent chunk of cash I want to see a big performance increase.

I will say that if my mac's perfomance is close to how a mac mini will perform there will be a lot of happy switchers.

-cje

bearfilm · Jan 22, 2005, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by MORT A POTTY:
let me clarify. the dual 1.73Ghz (using actual 1.6Ghz processors) is 800, and is what I was talking about. as for the PowerLogix, you are right, OWC has them for $729. my bad, I appreciate the correction.

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but I have seen some controversy over the 1.7 gig upgrades barely notching out over a 1.4 gig upgrade due to the lack of the level 3 cache. FWIW

I think the mini is way cool and if I hadn't a fortune on all the above mentioned upgrades in order to make a "Too cheap to pass up." 400 dig. audio something that made me really happy. Sure I could have bought a imac g5 for the same total cost. But then I wouldn't have had the miglia DVR Card that I am VERY impressed with the more I use it.
If only the rumor sites would have known something BEFORE christmas, I would have waited and bought the mini. (another topic I guess.)
Still, VERY happy with what I have and don't regret a dime I spent.

LOOOOONG Post short (sorry), I have surmised the mac mini is not meant to be a primary computer for those of us that use one daily, it is meant to be a lure to draw in those pc users that have been "on the fence" to finally switch over (I guess Steve said just that.) It is also meant to be a reason to get that "new mac" that all of us seem to want but never seem to have enough money to buy.

blorntso · Jan 22, 2005, 02:41 AM

am i correct to assume that a big problem with the mini is the hard disc speed at 4200? i know they are expensive, but shouldn't it be possible to replace it with a nice 2.5 in 7200 rpm drive? i know, i know.. it'll cost 150 or more... but that would make the mini much more attractive, right? and whether it is actually possible to do so without paying out your ass for an authorized service person to do it is another thought.

MORT A POTTY · Jan 22, 2005, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by blorntso:
am i correct to assume that a big problem with the mini is the hard disc speed at 4200? i know they are expensive, but shouldn't it be possible to replace it with a nice 2.5 in 7200 rpm drive? i know, i know.. it'll cost 150 or more... but that would make the mini much more attractive, right? and whether it is actually possible to do so without paying out your ass for an authorized service person to do it is another thought.

thats one of my main issues with the mini. and the lack of ports and slots...

two USB?
one FireWire?
no PCI?

but yeah the HD is my main issue with it. that's way way WAY too damn slow, even for a laptop.

Milo Bloom · Feb 26, 2005, 08:53 AM

Hi

I'm in a similar position to the original poster (looking to upgrade an even older machine in fact - a single processor 400mhz G4, 10GB HD, 640mb RAM) and taking into account that I need upgrade to upgrade the OS too, the Mini looks on the surface like a good deal compared to seperate upgrades. I use the the machine for 2D print and webdesign (Mainly Dreamweaver & Photoshop stuff, some of the Photoshop work I do is fairly heayyweight) and for web, email etc. It's served me well, but I'm ready for a bit of an upgrade although budget is an issue right now.

There's no doubt that the processor in the Mini is going to be faster than mine and I've looked at the RAM options I'd have, but I'm a little concerned about this HD speed issue. However, I do have an external 7200rpm Firewire disk already and have found this article that suggests running the Mini from a fast firewire drive will give a performance improvement. Any thoughts on whether this is a good move forward for me or anyone in my position? And (as I've never used an external drive as primary before) I presume this would entail installing OSX on the Firewire drive and setting it as the startup disk. Will this be possible and straightforward to do with the system CDs that ship with the Mini?

OreoCookie · Feb 28, 2005, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Milo Bloom:
Hi

I'm in a similar position to the original poster (looking to upgrade an even older machine in fact - a single processor 400mhz G4, 10GB HD, 640mb RAM) and taking into account that I need upgrade to upgrade the OS too, the Mini looks on the surface like a good deal compared to seperate upgrades. I use the the machine for 2D print and webdesign (Mainly Dreamweaver & Photoshop stuff, some of the Photoshop work I do is fairly heayyweight) and for web, email etc. It's served me well, but I'm ready for a bit of an upgrade although budget is an issue right now.

There's no doubt that the processor in the Mini is going to be faster than mine and I've looked at the RAM options I'd have, but I'm a little concerned about this HD speed issue. However, I do have an external 7200rpm Firewire disk already and have found this article that suggests running the Mini from a fast firewire drive will give a performance improvement. Any thoughts on whether this is a good move forward for me or anyone in my position? And (as I've never used an external drive as primary before) I presume this would entail installing OSX on the Firewire drive and setting it as the startup disk. Will this be possible and straightforward to do with the system CDs that ship with the Mini?

For you, the mini is a really good deal.
An external hd will be faster, but also noisier. Look at the bright side, you get a $150 OS for free

Milo Bloom · Feb 28, 2005, 12:41 PM

Thanks for the reply.

I've been doing the maths and weighing up the pros and cons of upgrading what I have (processor, HD, a little more RAM, OS) or the Mini with the 1GB RAM hike. The Mini is the more appealing option, but slightly more expensive with the extra RAM.

The more I look at it though, and the more the upgrade costs mount up, the more I think it might make more sense in the long term to stretch my finances that extra mile and go for the base iMac G5. At least I know that's going to be a usable machine for years to come, and I'm going to want a monitor upgrade at some time anyway! Maybe I should bide my time and save my pennies, til Tiger comes out and save myself that upgrade cost too. I've waited this long for a new Mac after all...

Thanks again - good forum. I've picked up a lot of useful stuff on here in the past few days.

Mediaman_12 · Feb 28, 2005, 04:54 PM

I will tag my query on the the end of this.
WILL the G4 (Early AGP) and the Mini use the same RAM? I am thinking about buying a Mini later in the year, when it comes with Tiger. But could I buy a 512MB DIMM now (the correct spec for the Mini) and use it in my current G4, then when I get the Mini swap the 512MB that I would already have for the Apple fitted 256MB one.
I know there may be speed problems the (newer) ram for the Mini wouldn't be the 'correct' speed for the old G4, but would It still work properly?

goMac · Feb 28, 2005, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
I will tag my query on the the end of this.
WILL the G4 (Early AGP) and the Mini use the same RAM? I am thinking about buying a Mini later in the year, when it comes with Tiger. But could I buy a 512MB DIMM now (the correct spec for the Mini) and use it in my current G4, then when I get the Mini swap the 512MB that I would already have for the Apple fitted 256MB one.
I know there may be speed problems the (newer) ram for the Mini wouldn't be the 'correct' speed for the old G4, but would It still work properly?

No.