[Monique]

In this time when Islam is put to trial and that everything that comes out of the president's mouth is about religion and in this time of the birth of Christ I would like to know your opinion about the following.

When Christ said there is no other way to the Father then through me.

Did he mean himself as the physical being Jesus or the spiritual side meaning the only way to God is through God.

If the second statement is true, Christianity is not the only valid religion but one way to believe in God; and Christians should maybe stop put so much emphasis on Jesus and more on God.

[seabrian]

I have came to understand that Jesus bridges the gap in the relationship between God and man. In Christian faith, it's recognized that man is born into sin (as caused through the first sin Adam and Eve eatting the fruit from the tree... disobeying God). Salvation is atainable through the sacrifice Christ paid on the cross which is atonement from sin.

Jesus meant the idea of forgiveness and unconditional love within a relationship.

[RAILhead]

Forums like this are difficult places to get a point across -- it's so easy to misunderstand and explain something -- but I'll give it a shot anyway Without getting into a long thesis about fundamental beliefs/understandings/opinions. This is what I feel personally...

1) God made Man with free will

2) Man chose to disobey God

3) God, being just, had to render "punishment" as He said He would when Man disobeyed

4) God's punishment to Man was the "death" of the close bond (full, unquestioning dependance) Man originally had with Him.

5) Man sought to regain that bond through various sacrifices (animals, crops, etc.)

6) God accepted these sacrifices, but Man remained feeling unjustified (I can get into this more later, if need be, but think 10 Commandments weren't good enough so God gave them Leviticus)

7) God tired of Man's failed attempts at restoring the once perfect relationship, so He stepped-up to the plate.

8) God made the one final sacrifice that Man must accept and believe is "good enough" to wipe away transgressions and lead to justification -- that sacrifice was part of Himself: Himself clothed in Human Form as Jesus.

9) God laid out Jesus' plan as being the one final embodyment of final atonement and all that is required of Man is to believe that this sacrifice (Jesus) is sufficient.

10) Once Man accepts that he cannot atone his transgressions for himself, and that he needs something higher than himself to rebuild the broken relationship once had with God, one accepts Jesus as being the final sacrifice needed for salvation from eternal separation from God.

This, in *very* basic terms, is my opinion and belief in God, Jesus and salvation. So, that said, when Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through Me" I feel He is saying something to the effect of...

"I am what you need to trust and believe in as I am the embodyment of the final sacrifice God, the Creator, established in order to regain the once perfect relationship you had with Him. You, Man, tried to restore this relationship -- but what you did was never enough to satisfy you. Therefore God Himself made the sacrifice above all sacrifices, and all you need to do is realize this, believe it, and accept that I, Jesus, am that sacrifice. Once you believe this, you will realize God is doing the work of atonement, and all He asks is that you come to Him through believing in His sacrifice: Me, Jesus."

Again, I hope that makes sense, and I hope you realize I am trying to keep it quick and simple as possible so I don't clutter it more! =)

If I need to explain something further, feel free to ask. And again, these are my opinions and beliefs -- I make no claim to represent "all of Christianity" as there are thousands of variations/segments of this faith, just as there are in all faiths across the globe.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Maury

[SirCastor]

I interpret it as literally being that there is no way to return to God's presence except through Christ's sacrafice.

Here's my breakdown:

Because of our imperfection, we will inevitably sin. If we are unclean, we cannot be in God's Presence. (No Unclean thing can dwell with in the presence of God). Because God loves us, he wants us to be with Him. So he sent His Son to earth to atone for our sins. Jesus led a perfect, sinless life, and He suffered for mankind's sins. So because Christ suffered for our sins, we can be clean from them and dwell in the presence of God, as well as the law (No Unclean thing can dwell with in the presence of God) can be fulfilled.

[aleph_null]

My two cents:

It seems to me that Jesus was an embodiment of the divine. The "word made flesh." But this was not because God, as some entity outside of nature, did some magic, put some piece of himself onto earth and made some other-worldly being that walked among us and died for our sins... The standard Christian mythology may touch on truth in some metaphorical or psychological sense, but I think the crux of Jesus' message (pardon the pun), and the message of many of the historical figures who birthed religions, is simply that it is possible for us regular folks to also become an embodiment of the divine, and that it's a really good idea to try to take advantage of that.

So that quote in particular is just another way of saying that Jesus was showing the way for the rest of us. He was an example. I suppose it is that "the only way to God is through God," but I don't think that means there should be less emphasis on Jesus. He's a very useful model, if you can get through all the interpretations and distortions which have accumulated through the centuries. He is also not the only model. (Sakyamuni Buddha and Jesus Christ woulda been pals, I'm sure. )

(If you ask me, the patriarchal imagery and talk of sin and atonement are the marks left on Christianity from centuries of growing up in the patriarchal, mechanical, analytical mindset of the West, as well as the cultural soil in which it first germinated. It's very rich, beautiful stuff, and there is human-predicament, collective-consciousness-type truth in it, but I don't think the cultural trappings should be emphasized to the exclusion of the original message, which is universal.)

(Another aside: I wouldn't say that Islam is being "put to trial." The stuff going on right now has less to do with Islam as a religion than with the social and political forces using Islam as a tool. Religions, including Christianity, are 100% man-made, and are no more and no less than tools, IMHO... "Religions don't kill people, people kill people." Or something. )

[nana2]

The moral of the Jebus story is use a condom when going into heavy petting or a virgin birth may result....

[FulcrumPilot]

I guess one has to have an image of someone or something to be able to worship isnt it? how can you worship "nothing" is that possible? I guess not, so I guess thats what he meant.

[MikeM32]

When Christ said there is no other way to the Father then through me.

I suppose all Hebrews burn in hell then right? It's just a variation on the fictional epic known as "The Bible". To me it pretty-much just makles sure that all good little christians also believe in Jesus.

Christianity and Judaism and other faiths based on the bible and so on had to secure thier followers in Genisis. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. This means they became smarter and possibly questionned this "god" being.

Expulsion from Eden was the punishment for non-obedience.

Don't ask me though I beleive all religion is a crock. Fiction

Mike

[Ruby]

Monique....If you do not know all of your facts about Christians and what they "emphasize" on, please think before you post.

[Cipher13]

Jesus is God incarnate, essentially, right?

So therefore "me" could refer to either of them.

God would never deny Jesus' worthiness of allowing somebody into Heaven; nor would God not hold that right.

So in my opinion, either way works; which makes for a much more tolerant reading of the passage.

[rjenkinson]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. This means they became smarter and possibly questionned this God being.</STRONG>

did they? adam and eve were said to have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. there's a big difference between plain knowledge and knowledge of good and evil. adam and eve were not simply becoming "smarter". they attempted to determine what good or evil were (ie. morality) without God.

-r.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: rjenkinson ]

[seanyepez]

Originally posted by Ruby:
<STRONG>Monique....If you do not know all of your facts about Christians and what they "emphasize" on, please think before you post.</STRONG>

Agreed.

[scaught]

Originally posted by Ruby:
<STRONG>Monique....If you do not know all of your facts about Christians and what they "emphasize" on, please think before you post.</STRONG>

i dont think her post was rude or sarcastic at all. she was merely trying to start a discussion. whats with the tone?

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>I suppose all Hebrews burn in hell then right?</STRONG>

Under a literal interpretation of the Bible, yes. As well as many other perfectly upstanding individuals. Fortunately for us (the people condemned to hell by the bible), we're not christian and therefore don't care.

[Gregg]

Monique, Christians were given that name by others because of their belief in Christ.
Otherwise, they might have been called Godites or Yawehists.

Hebrew was an ethnicity which is no longer in use as far as I know.
A Hebrew (later called the Jews) could have become a Christian.
Perhaps heathen would fit the question better.
But, non-heathens would include people of non-christian religions.
So, the real gist of the question would imply non-christian.
Strictly speaking, then, yes, the predominant Christian belief is that Christ is the only way.
But, there's more to the story than the single quote leading off this thread.
It has been summarized quite succinctly above, leaving out only the "how" part.
We don't want to get into that, do we?

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Gregg ]

[Monique]

First I do know all my facts about Christians because I was raised Catholic and then was a born again Christian and I did read the Bible twice. I am not a professor but neither most of you.

The problem I have with Christianity is the divinity of Christ; that everything has to pass through him. I prefer to talk, pray, and believe only in God. This is why when I will get a chance I want to convert to Judaism. Another thing since we are talking about Christianity, the thing that makes me gringe is fundamentalism. And why won't you recognize it instead of saying that there are fundamentalists in other religions (which is true, I won't deny it). It is sad that most Christians do not have the capacity or the willingness to interpret what was said in the Bible or see that some passages do not apply to today's life. Like the Christians' favorite passage in Romans where gays are sent to hell (even though this did not come from God but from Paul).

So if you all think that everything in the Bible apply to today's life; you should be stoning people that plant different crops side by side for example.

God gave us the gift of spirituality and intelligence and it is not to be used against each other. All I do is state my opinion and not be judged by someone like Ruby who is unable to bring up a solid argument unlike most of the posters here. It is all a question of faith.

[speirsfr]

Could someone smart please explain to me how Islam, which recognises Christ as *a* prophet, reconciles this statement with their beliefs?

I'm not trolling, but I have for years wondered how one can regard someone as a prophet yet apparently blatantly disregard a very important part of his teaching?

Thanks,
Fraser

[MikeM32]

did they? adam and eve were said to have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. there's a big difference between plain knowledge and knowledge of good and evil. adam and eve were not simply becoming "smarter". they attempted to determine what good or evil were (ie. morality) without God.

Okay perhaps I'm wrong here, but the "suggestion" is there. I left christianity ages ago in favor of evolutionism and agnosticism. I haven't completely abandoned what the bible is trying to "say". That specific title for a "tree" is very interresting on a philosophical level.

If you think about that it's interresting because it suggests that through our own knowledge that we've become "evil" per-se. Yes it's true that we "know" enough to create and invent things for "good" purposes, but we also know enough to create and invent things for mass destruction.

In many ways I can totally understand that even if I don't subscribe to it "word-for-word". The "point" makes sense.

Mike

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Monique:
<STRONG>The problem I have with Christianity is the divinity of Christ; that everything has to pass through him. I prefer to talk, pray, and believe only in God. This is why when I will get a chance I want to convert to Judaism. Another thing since we are talking about Christianity, the thing that makes me gringe is fundamentalism. And why won't you recognize it instead of saying that there are fundamentalists in other religions (which is true, I won't deny it). It is sad that most Christians do not have the capacity or the willingness to interpret what was said in the Bible or see that some passages do not apply to today's life. Like the Christians' favorite passage in Romans where gays are sent to hell (even though this did not come from God but from Paul).

So if you all think that everything in the Bible apply to today's life; you should be stoning people that plant different crops side by side for example.</STRONG>

Most christians, as far as I am aware, draw a distinction between the old and new testaments. I think your example must come from the old, although I am unfamiliar with it. Sounds like the kind of explicit rule stipulated in the old law, rather than the freedom Christ taught. So, in fact there are many things in the Bible that would not apply to us today, particularly the ones that Christ stated were to be replaced by the new covenant.

If you do not accept the trinity, that's your choice. If you're wrong, you might have a problem. Now, what shoe is on the other foot? I mean, what problem might I have if I do accept the trinity, and I'm wrong? Interesting thought. I don't know of any christian teaching that says I can't get to God through Christ. That would be kind of contradictory, wouldn't it? Of course, if you're leaving christianity for Judaism, it kind of doesn't matter to you, does it?

Your alluding to a scripture about homosexuality brings up the whole question of the inspiration of the scriptures. It would be a whole lot eaiser for us today if we had a time machine, and could go back to 30 A.D. to find out who was there, and what happened. Perhaps even this question of inspiration could be answered. There must be some reason that these "stories" or "factual accounts" have endured for centuries. (Lots of centuries, if you go back to the creation of Genesis.) Lots of other religions have come and gone. It's a fascinating subject, isn't it?

Gregg