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Space, US declares it's theirs.
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bamburg dunes
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Oct 2, 2004, 06:34 PM
 
Well, not quite, but an interesting article up on Wired talks about the US's conquest of space. To quote /. "Wired news is reporting that the US Air Force has documented its plans to shoot down "commercial spacecraft, neutral countries' launching pads -- even weather satellites" should the need arise"

Now, to me this is just taking the pi$$. Isn't it bad enough that this Administration is making a mockery of other countries sovereign rights already, without this kind of stiff being proposed? I ,mean, on one hand we have the Republicans talking about universal freedoms, the rights of individuals (how about nations?); but now they are saying they can openly attack other countries based on their space programs. What arrogance to even think such things. I guess under the umbrella of 'terrorism', a simple Chinese weather satelite cold be considered a threat to all humanity and must be struck down.

Makes for sobre reading.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/02/1840201

http://www.wired.com/news/space/0,2697,65151,00.html
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Logic
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Oct 2, 2004, 06:42 PM
 
Wonder how much this has to do with Europe putting up a much better global positioning system than the US GPS system.............

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
Dakar
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Oct 2, 2004, 06:45 PM
 
Let's hear it for topic title sensationalism.
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 2, 2004, 07:00 PM
 
What's sad is it allows for taking out neutral craft as well.

So taking out a UK satellite because it's broadcasting the BBC, which isn't subject to FCC regulations... would be ok.


The interesting thing here is that it makes censorship legal through an alternate avenue.

The US has laws against putting a muzzle on the media (though somewhat ignored). Now they want to simply steal the pen.

If you've been keeping up with this... the focus isn't on military space ventures by US enemies... it's on commercial, and third party. Including US corporate owned.
     
MacGorilla
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Oct 2, 2004, 07:09 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
Let's hear it for topic title sensationalism.
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djohnson
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Oct 2, 2004, 08:00 PM
 
How are we supposed to do this when the Chinese already have antigravity and warp technologies?

On a serious front, I wonder what cool technology the US has that will allow them to enforce this? Maybe the rumored space planes?
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 2, 2004, 08:17 PM
 
Originally posted by djohnson:
[BgMaybe the rumored space planes? [/B]
I know a few of these have been spotted around Edwards Air Force base:
     
idjeff
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Oct 2, 2004, 08:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
Wonder how much this has to do with Europe putting up a much better global positioning system than the US GPS system.............
How is it better? I'd just like to know.

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idjeff
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Oct 2, 2004, 08:47 PM
 
Now, after reading the article, I really don't understand how the US's policy regarding blowing up satellites that are an enemies or that could be potentially used by an enemy during war (including ground stations that control these satellites) is hardly surprising, let alone interesting.

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tie
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Oct 2, 2004, 09:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
Let's hear it for topic title sensationalism.
In this case it isn't so inaccurate.

Nobody has weapons deployed in space.

The US wants to start putting them there.

Obvious consequences: China and whoever else can afford and has the technical capability to do so (Russia, Europe, India?) will follow suit.

The idiocy is that the US has the most to lose in a space arms race. We are the ones with the most satellites, who are most vulnerable. (A counterargument is that we need to protect these satellites, because we are most vulnerable. But there is no threat currently; we will only create such a threat.)

This is similar to our plans to build deployable nuclear weapons (for example to take out underground bunkers). The US has much more to lose by encouraging nuclear weapons development than it gains.
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 2, 2004, 10:28 PM
 
Originally posted by tie:

The idiocy is that the US has the most to lose in a space arms race. We are the ones with the most satellites, who are most vulnerable. (A counterargument is that we need to protect these satellites, because we are most vulnerable. But there is no threat currently; we will only create such a threat.)

This is similar to our plans to build deployable nuclear weapons (for example to take out underground bunkers). The US has much more to lose by encouraging nuclear weapons development than it gains.
That's a good point.

If China, Russia, or the EU were smart... they'd knock out a US Satellite. Just to make that point very clear.
     
rambo47
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Oct 3, 2004, 10:23 AM
 
This is just coming up now?! Hey folks - any idea how long we've had plans like this? Since long before Reagan. Where's that timeline graphic when you need it?
     
ThinkInsane
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Oct 3, 2004, 12:30 PM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
That's a good point.

If China, Russia, or the EU were smart... they'd knock out a US Satellite. Just to make that point very clear.
Yes, committing an act of war would definitely be a good way to make a point

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Sven G
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Oct 4, 2004, 06:18 AM
 
Today's "conquest" of space is too ridiculous to even be considered: we - as humans - aren't going to explore space in a serious manner anytime soon, in the current context.

Space should, of course, be a shared resource, and not a "forever war" battle scenario: yet another example of how fscked up our "system" is!

If we, as humans, collaborated more instead of trying to make war at each other, we could probably have interstellar flight by now (or at least have fully explored the solar system) - who knows...

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SimeyTheLimey
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Oct 4, 2004, 06:54 AM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
Space should, of course, be a shared resource, and not a "forever war" battle scenario: yet another example of how fscked up our "system" is!
Space should be a shared resource in exactly the same way as the oceans are. I.e as a place that can be exploited for commercial purposes and to which the basic rules of international law apply. Right now under the treaty that was signed in the late 1960s, nobody can claim property rights in any astronomical body. That's completely stupid. It creates a powerful disincentive to the private exploration of space.

We will never explore the solar system relying on a 1960s Socialist paradise mentality and relying on taxpayer funds to pay for it. We will go when it is commercially viable to go. For example, to mine asteroids. To do that, you have to allow private property rights to protect the investments made.
     
dcolton
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Oct 4, 2004, 09:24 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
That's a good point.

If China, Russia, or the EU were smart... they'd knock out a US Satellite. Just to make that point very clear.
What a tool! An American citizen rooting for an act of war against the land in which he lives. Have you no shame?
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:05 AM
 
Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Yes, committing an act of war would definitely be a good way to make a point

Wouldn't be an act of war... according to US doctorine it would be self defense. May want to read the documentation associated with the article.... the US doesn't need to wait until wartime, it can do it during times of peace.

Originally posted by dcolton:
What a tool! An American citizen rooting for an act of war against the land in which he lives. Have you no shame?
Again, according to the US doctorine itself: *not* an act of war. The Bush Admin. and the Pentagon clearly agree.

It would under these documents be fair game.

That's the big problem here.
     
dcolton
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:08 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Wouldn't be an act of war... according to US doctorine it would be self defense. May want to read the documentation associated with the article.... the US doesn't need to wait until wartime, it can do it during times of peace.


Again, according to the US doctorine itself: *not* an act of war. The Bush Admin. and the Pentagon clearly agree.

It would under these documents be fair game.

That's the big problem here.
You miss my point...YOU ARE A TOOL for wishing that a foreign nation destroy an American interest...be it an act of war, a pre-emptive strike, or a circle jerk. Go to Canada, and never come back please
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:10 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
You miss my point...YOU ARE A TOOL for wishing that a foreign nation destroy an American interest...be it an act of war, a pre-emptive strike, or a circle jerk. Go to Canada, and never come back please
Would you consider a German a tool for thinking Hitler was wrong?



I know you'd say "yes".... but I'm still asking.
     
dcolton
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:13 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Would you consider a German a tool for thinking Hitler was wrong?



I know you'd say "yes".... but I'm still asking.
You advocate a foreign power to destroy American interests in space. You are one who will bitch about taxes and spending, but you want foreign powers to blow up a billion dollar satellite. "Tool" is a kind word to describe people like you...I can think of a far more accurate description, but since this is a public forum...I will leave it at tool.
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:28 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
You advocate a foreign power to destroy American interests in space. You are one who will bitch about taxes and spending, but you want foreign powers to blow up a billion dollar satellite. "Tool" is a kind word to describe people like you...I can think of a far more accurate description, but since this is a public forum...I will leave it at tool.
BTW: Your the only who said I was advocating. To quote:

If China, Russia, or the EU were smart... they'd knock out a US Satellite. Just to make that point very clear.
That's not advocating.

SimeyTheLimey has by far the best statement. I agree 100%. But it's going to take a lot to convince the US it doesn't own space.
     
dcolton
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:32 AM
 
Yes, that is advocating. Why are you so hateful towards your own nation?
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:45 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
SimeyTheLimey has by far the best statement. I agree 100%. But it's going to take a lot to convince the US it doesn't own space.
I think you misunderstood me. I am saying that the 67 space treaty should be abrogated because it bans property interests in astronomical bodies. The peaceful development of space will depend mostly on commercial incentives rather on government programs. The current space treaty inhibits that and should be done away with in favor of a smarter model.

On the question of satellites, I see them as more like ships in international waters. Under most circumstances, neutral shipping should be left alone. But there are circumstances where they can be told to clear the sea lanes. Obviously warships in a war can be sunk, and so can warships disguised as neutral shipping.

So far those rules haven't been explicitly applied to satellites, even military satellites. However, both the Soviet Union and the US developed anti-satellite weapons in the 1980s. It's obviously coming. It's not a question of owning space any more than anyone owns international waters. It's a question of not allowing space to be used against us with impunity if that becomes a serious issue on the ground in a war.
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:46 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Would you consider a German a tool for thinking Hitler was wrong?
     
y0y0
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:47 AM
 
FWIW: The wired article is reporting on US contingency planning, which is something every single nation does, including China. It's no big secret that China is an evolving power and will, in the coming decades probably evolve into a superpower. The Chinese are loking at ways to increase their power in all spheres of military power, and space is but one part of that. Also, the Chinese have a vested interest, as a nation, to evolve ways to ensure they do not have to suffer domination by another country such as the US.

The US is no different and sees the rising power of Chinese military space technology as a future threat and is taking steps to counter it. This is perfectly normal, although I fear that it will simply lead to another arms race similar to the one that the US had against the USSR.
     
dcolton
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:49 AM
 
don't try to pull your stopping teh evil hitler argument! The US is not WWII era Germany.

Good try though, tool.
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:56 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
don't try to pull your stopping teh evil hitler argument! The US is not WWII era Germany
Care to provide evidence of this? There's a ton of similarities.

People said the same thing when people questioned Hitler. He isn't another evil poewr hungry leader like Napoleon.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 4, 2004, 10:58 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Care to provide evidence of this? There's a ton of similarities.

People said the same thing when people questioned Hitler. He isn't another evil poewr hungry leader like Napoleon.
LMFAO
     
dcolton
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Oct 4, 2004, 11:11 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Care to provide evidence of this? There's a ton of similarities.

People said the same thing when people questioned Hitler. He isn't another evil poewr hungry leader like Napoleon.
Evidence of what? The fact that you are a tool for everyone that hates America. Here it is:

That's a good point.

If China, Russia, or the EU were smart... they'd knock out a US Satellite. Just to make that point very clear.
Now, run away and hide like you usually do
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 4, 2004, 11:38 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Evidence of what? The fact that you are a tool for everyone that hates America. Here it is:



Now, run away and hide like you usually do
Where's your evidence that "The US is not WWII era Germany."?

We've pointed out similarities in many threads now. Every time, you fail to point out differences, other than trivial stuff names, and language. Nothing regarding true policy.


Many say if you don't vote to re-elect the person in office, your commiting an act of treason. Is that also so? If you vote for what is right, rather than blindly back a foolish leader... is that treason? Is that hating america?

There thugs during every campaign that pull that bit. But is it true?
     
dcolton
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Oct 4, 2004, 11:45 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Where's your evidence that "The US is not WWII era Germany."?

We've pointed out similarities in many threads now. Every time, you fail to point out differences, other than trivial stuff names, and language. Nothing regarding true policy.


Many say if you don't vote to re-elect the person in office, your commiting an act of treason. Is that also so? If you vote for what is right, rather than blindly back a foolish leader... is that treason? Is that hating america?

There thugs during every campaign that pull that bit. But is it true?
Why are you trying to confuse the issue here. I made one simple statement in response to yours. It is quite simple. Not hard to understand...and it shouldn't be too hard for you to accept. You are a tool! That simple. You can try to compare the US to WII era germany, napolean, whomever...but the fact remains that you are a tool. If you don't like it...go in the restroom and stare at yourself in the mirror for a while. If you focus long enough, you will see a hammer in the mirror.
     
macvillage.net
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Oct 4, 2004, 12:23 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Why are you trying to confuse the issue here. I made one simple statement in response to yours. It is quite simple. Not hard to understand...and it shouldn't be too hard for you to accept. You are a tool! That simple. You can try to compare the US to WII era germany, napolean, whomever...but the fact remains that you are a tool. If you don't like it...go in the restroom and stare at yourself in the mirror for a while. If you focus long enough, you will see a hammer in the mirror.
So I'm the tool for pointing out the problems.

But you ignore problems, and appease state-sponsored terrorism... and that's a good thing?



Lets throw this in a direction that you enjoy: Is a Palestinian who blindly accepts anything their government does a good person? Or a tool?

Would that person be a tool for saying Arafat is crazy? By your logic, the answer is clearly yes. He should support Arafat regardless.




There's two types of governments in this world:

Ones improving, and ones declining.

Why you perfer to let imperfections grow and fester into giant problems is beyond common logic.
     
djohnson
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Oct 4, 2004, 12:29 PM
 
Can ya'll quit it and get back to discussing the militarization/commercialization of space?

BTW, how much do you think an asteroid will cost?
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Oct 4, 2004, 12:47 PM
 
Originally posted by djohnson:
BTW, how much do you think an asteroid will cost?
Nothing at all. You just have to go there and grab it.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 4, 2004, 12:58 PM
 
In Europe there's typically a 26% VAT and probably some sort of import duty or tariff - since an asteroid is obviously created with non-European labor and materials.

Just think of an asteroid as being akin to a pair of Levis 501 jeans or perhaps some quality (aka, non-European) electronics - as far as European tax laws are concerned. No. wait. OK, nevermind. It does indeed work.
     
   
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