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besson3c · Jul 9, 2009, 09:40 PM

I find it funny that there is no standard on fire hydrant colors. I've seen red ones, yellow ones, and green ones.

It would seem to me that red would be the dumbest color imaginable to color a fire hydrant because everybody knows that fire is also red. Green is okay, except when you are driving around looking a fire hydrant where there is no fire, it will camouflage with the grass. I think yellow might be the best, but maybe other colors exist?

What color are your fire hydrants, and do you feel safe having them around, or are they just for peeing dogs? Why don't they make neon glow in the dark fire hydrants? Also, couldn't fire hydrants double as drinking fountains and bird baths?

ghporter · Jul 9, 2009, 10:02 PM

Finding a hydrant is not an issue for firefighters; they either have them marked on maps or have other identifiers that help locate them. Around here, they use blue reflector bumps in the street to show where hydrants are located. That's a good thing.

At one point when I was growing up, my home town abolished the "don't even think about painting the fire hydrants in front of your homes" rule and had a decorating contest. It went well, and not a single hydrant "blended in" to anything.

Considering that a fire hydrant usually has a 6" or larger bore and taps into at least that size water main, I can see a little concern about their safety. They ONLY go shooting off into the air after being struck by a car in the movies. In reality, if a car hits one, it's most likely the car will be totaled - they're made of a lot of very tough cast iron - and if they are damaged, they stay pretty much in place. But that strength makes them less than "adaptable." Most hydrants can be turned on (their valve opened) just a little, but that is still A WHOLE LOT of water. No drinking fountain, no birdbath. Besides, who would pay for the water and the upkeep?

besson3c · Jul 9, 2009, 10:12 PM

Maybe we could get local criminals and homeless people and people like that to take care of the drinking fountains and the bird baths?

You can justify it economically in neighborhoods where there are a lot of outdoor cats. Cats eat birds, and birds hang around bird baths. You wouldn't have to buy as much cat food.

Also, think about all of our savings in medical costs relating to dehydration?

indigoimac · Jul 9, 2009, 10:45 PM

We also have red, yellow, and green and I have even seen a few purple ones. (all accented with white) I think I have also seen a few black and gold (yellow) ones given that this is Pittsburgh and the steelers and all that jazz. There's quite the motley crew though of different models and styles though here, but whatever, they generally work most of the time and there are a lot of them.

turtle777 · Jul 9, 2009, 10:58 PM

The fire hydrants in my fridge are green:

-t

Laminar · Jul 9, 2009, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Considering that a fire hydrant usually has a 6" or larger bore and taps into at least that size water main, I can see a little concern about their safety. They ONLY go shooting off into the air after being struck by a car in the movies. In reality, if a car hits one, it's most likely the car will be totaled - they're made of a lot of very tough cast iron - and if they are damaged, they stay pretty much in place.

You sure about that?

ApertureValue · Jul 9, 2009, 11:04 PM

According to the NFPA, fire hydrants should be colored one of four colors, according to their fire flow. The colors are red (lowest flow), orange, blue and green (highest flow). Now, this is great on paper, but nearly all the hydrants in every city I've been in haven't been colored according to this standard. As the matter of fact, here in Springfield, MO (where I was a firefighter for 9 years), the hydrants are a yellow-green pee color. Go figure.

Oh, so are the fire trucks (which there's an entire story behind THAT, too).

besson3c · Jul 9, 2009, 11:06 PM

Don't mess with Laminar, that boy knows his fire hydrants.

Leonard Skinner · Jul 9, 2009, 11:06 PM

Yellow I love you. Won't you give me your name?

ApertureValue · Jul 9, 2009, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Finding a hydrant is not an issue for firefighters; they either have them marked on maps or have other identifiers that help locate them. Around here, they use blue reflector bumps in the street to show where hydrants are located. That's a good thing.

At one point when I was growing up, my home town abolished the "don't even think about painting the fire hydrants in front of your homes" rule and had a decorating contest. It went well, and not a single hydrant "blended in" to anything.

Considering that a fire hydrant usually has a 6" or larger bore and taps into at least that size water main, I can see a little concern about their safety. They ONLY go shooting off into the air after being struck by a car in the movies. In reality, if a car hits one, it's most likely the car will be totaled - they're made of a lot of very tough cast iron - and if they are damaged, they stay pretty much in place. But that strength makes them less than "adaptable." Most hydrants can be turned on (their valve opened) just a little, but that is still A WHOLE LOT of water. No drinking fountain, no birdbath. Besides, who would pay for the water and the upkeep?

Actually, they are designed to shear off at roughly ground level for just that reason. And, depending on what portion of the world you live in, they are either "wet barrel" or "dry barrel," depending on whether the area gets freezing temperatures or not.

Also, they are called "Plugs" by most firefighters. Just FYI.

besson3c · Jul 9, 2009, 11:30 PM

Aperture: interesting! Thanks for sharing...

Rumor · Jul 9, 2009, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

According to the NFPA, fire hydrants should be colored one of four colors, according to their fire flow. The colors are red (lowest flow), orange, blue and green (highest flow). Now, this is great on paper, but nearly all the hydrants in every city I've been in haven't been colored according to this standard. As the matter of fact, here in Springfield, MO (where I was a firefighter for 9 years), the hydrants are a yellow-green pee color. Go figure.

Oh, so are the fire trucks (which there's an entire story behind THAT, too).

I would like to know why that color for the trucks was choosen. You can't leave us hanging like that.

ApertureValue · Jul 10, 2009, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Rumor

I would like to know why that color for the trucks was choosen. You can't leave us hanging like that.

Hehe, well it goes a little something like this:

Back in the 1970's (I believe that was the decade), a nationwide study was done by some transportation safety agency which stated that people in traffic respond to brighter colors versus the simple red of most fire apparatus. They stated that too many regular vehicles were red, and therefore a brighter color was recommended for added visibility.

So, the Springfield Fire Department started painting their apparatus yellow/green instead of red. The funny thing was that, later in the 90's, a similar study was done which said that it doesn't really matter what color the apparatus is, it is the siren that really gets people's attention.

Needless to say, the entire time the trucks were green, all the personnel complained, saying that "fire trucks are RED, dammit!" They've been green ever since, and we were still complaining about the "baby poop green" color.

Here's the color (that's a snap my wife took of me on one of the last shifts before my early retirement):

colourfastt · Jul 10, 2009, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

Hehe, well it goes a little something like this:

Back in the 1970's (I believe that was the decade), a nationwide study was done by some transportation safety agency which stated that people in traffic respond to brighter colors versus the simple red of most fire apparatus. They stated that too many regular vehicles were red, and therefore a brighter color was recommended for added visibility.

So, the Springfield Fire Department started painting their apparatus yellow/green instead of red. The funny thing was that, later in the 90's, a similar study was done which said that it doesn't really matter what color the apparatus is, it is the siren that really gets people's attention.

Needless to say, the entire time the trucks were green, all the personnel complained, saying that "fire trucks are RED, dammit!" They've been green ever since, and we were still complaining about the "baby poop green" color.

Here's the color (that's a snap my wife took of me on one of the last shifts before my early retirement):

I was a vollie back in the 80s and all our trucks were lime-green, so now I expect all fire apparatus to be that colour.

Of course you could try riding the apps in Seminole County FL .... they're all BRIGHT PINK!

rickey939 · Jul 10, 2009, 08:37 AM

Orange.

Atheist · Jul 10, 2009, 09:23 AM

The few I've seen in the area are red. We don't have them at all in my neighborhood, but if we did, they wouldn't be much use as we don't have a consistent water supply.

ApertureValue · Jul 10, 2009, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Atheist

The few I've seen in the area are red. We don't have them at all in my neighborhood, but if we did, they wouldn't be much use as we don't have a consistent water supply.

Yeah, we knew that if we saw a red one here, that meant it was a private hydrant with very little flow. We'd lay out 1500' of gut down the road before we'd use one of those even if it was right in front of the building.

ghporter · Jul 10, 2009, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

You sure about that?

That's the way that particular hydrant was installed-as ApertureValue points out, the riser is often built to shear. But note that the truck was also going pretty fast and it wasn't particularly small-there was a lot of energy involved in that impact. I'd also be curious if it was a 6" riser or a much bigger one, because it's obviously easier to break a smaller pipe than a bigger one. The hydrant-related collisions I've seen have all been at much slower speeds, sort of as the last bump in a long chain of collisions, and those didn't knock the hydrant off like that (which was indeed pretty cool looking). Maybe the ones I've seen also involved only large-bore hydrants...

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

Actually, they are designed to shear off at roughly ground level for just that reason. And, depending on what portion of the world you live in, they are either "wet barrel" or "dry barrel," depending on whether the area gets freezing temperatures or not.

Also, they are called "Plugs" by most firefighters. Just FYI.

The riser pipe is the key to where the device shears off. Around here, most riser pipes are relatively short, but they're still not typically sized for the flange to be even "near" ground level. Riser pipes are often (maybe usually) built so that the flange at the top is the weak link, allowing the hydrant to break off at the flange. Pretty handy if everything is sized right.

I haven't seen a wet barrel hydrant in years. Those are the ones that "might" go shooting off into the air if they are sheared off. One reason they're not common in the US is that hydrants are very susceptible to impacts and shearing one off would open a pretty big break in the water main-which is a Very Bad Thing.

The above ground part of a fire hydrant-the part you see-is only really a chunk of pipe with the appropriate connections for standard fire hoses. The five-sided thingie on the top is the end of a long shaft that operates the valve, which with dry barrel hydrants is AT the water main level underground. The "barrel" part is the riser pipe and the above ground hydrant itself.

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

According to the NFPA, fire hydrants should be colored one of four colors, according to their fire flow. The colors are red (lowest flow), orange, blue and green (highest flow). Now, this is great on paper, but nearly all the hydrants in every city I've been in haven't been colored according to this standard. As the matter of fact, here in Springfield, MO (where I was a firefighter for 9 years), the hydrants are a yellow-green pee color. Go figure.

Oh, so are the fire trucks (which there's an entire story behind THAT, too).

I have never seen color coded hydrants. But around here they are sometimes bagged. A black bag indicates that the hydrant is not capable of supplying the very minimum amount of water needed for it to be useful-it's a "dead hydrant."

On the other hand, I've seen a LOT of places that require their hydrants to meet some sort of "thematic color system." In other words, if the fancy light poles are all painted a toffy brown, the hydrants are also painted the same color. Kinda dumb. (The Air Force adopted a brown/tan architectural color scheme many years ago -Thanks General Creech!-which is used for everything from buildings to signage to fire hydrants. This was a Very Dumb Idea in my opinion...)

Studies have shown that "high visibility yellow-green," that eye-hurting "cross between piss yellow and puke green,"* is no more noticeable in traffic than traditional fire-engine red. Most fire departments are going back to red because of it.

*Bob Falfa (Harrison Ford), American Grafiti

ApertureValue · Jul 10, 2009, 01:40 PM

You'll still find wet-barrel hydrants in the SouthWest U.S. And, yes, depending on the region, the water lines are different sizes up to the hydrant.

I've seen plenty of hydrants hit by vehicles (since I responded to many accidents where this was the case), and in this area, they've all sheared where designed: near ground level. Not sure how others are designed, but it would be ignorant for them to have been designed NOT to shear off if hit by a vehicle.

Railroader · Jul 11, 2009, 07:32 PM

I can see two from my front door. The one across the street is yellow, and the one down the road is aqua.

ghporter · Jul 11, 2009, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

You'll still find wet-barrel hydrants in the SouthWest U.S. And, yes, depending on the region, the water lines are different sizes up to the hydrant.

I've seen plenty of hydrants hit by vehicles (since I responded to many accidents where this was the case), and in this area, they've all sheared where designed: near ground level. Not sure how others are designed, but it would be ignorant for them to have been designed NOT to shear off if hit by a vehicle.

The risers here do shear off where they're supposed to-either completely or partially. But for some reason risers seem to come out of the ground as much as 4-5" rather than stopping at ground level, so the hydrant sticks up a little higher and there's pipe sticking out of the ground if they get knocked off.

ApertureValue · Jul 11, 2009, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

The risers here do shear off where they're supposed to-either completely or partially. But for some reason risers seem to come out of the ground as much as 4-5" rather than stopping at ground level, so the hydrant sticks up a little higher and there's pipe sticking out of the ground if they get knocked off.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying now. The chances are that either the ground settled more after the hydrant was put in, therefore making the pipe stick out of the ground more, or it was simply shoddy installation by public works...we've seen both here in our city.

ghporter · Jul 11, 2009, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

Yeah, I understand what you're saying now. The chances are that either the ground settled more after the hydrant was put in, therefore making the pipe stick out of the ground more, or it was simply shoddy installation by public works...we've seen both here in our city.

Third possibility: LOTS of limestone under the surface, making it hard to get the mains as deep as they'd like for the risers they have. Nobody has basements here-you need explosives to excavate them. Not much of a frost line either, since a "freeze" here never gets through the grass, let alone to buried utilities.

ApertureValue · Jul 11, 2009, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Third possibility: LOTS of limestone under the surface, making it hard to get the mains as deep as they'd like for the risers they have. Nobody has basements here-you need explosives to excavate them. Not much of a frost line either, since a "freeze" here never gets through the grass, let alone to buried utilities.

Wow, I completely agree with you on the limestone. That seems to be all we have here, too. You can't dig 3" without hitting a buttload of rock.

Rev-O · Jul 12, 2009, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

The risers here do shear off where they're supposed to-either completely or partially. But for some reason risers seem to come out of the ground as much as 4-5" rather than stopping at ground level, so the hydrant sticks up a little higher and there's pipe sticking out of the ground if they get knocked off.

Some folks in the water distribution community suggest that you paint your fire hydrants based off of flow rates, but not many people don't do that. Easier just to paint them one color. I use Rustoleum Safety Yellow.
In dry barrel hydrants the riser (also called the lower barrel or standpipe depending on hydrant manufacturer) is supposed to stick about four inches above ground for maintenance and functionality. The bottom flange sits above grade to provided access to the break away rings that hold the upper barrel in place. If the hydrant sat at grade it would very difficult to do repair work and maintenance. The fire hydrant body is attached to the lower barrel with rings/flanges/etc (depending on the manufacture of hydrant) that are designed to shear on impact. The stem of the hydrant is like wise divided into pieces (upper stem, lower stem) that are connected by a coupling that is designed to shear on impact. The main valve down at the base (the boot) of the hydrant opens by being forced down by the operating nut into the boot and allowing water to flow over it and out the hydrant. If the hydrant is knocked off, the main valve is held by pressure in the closed position so that water does not go blasting out. Also, much like highway signs, they are supposed to break instead of completely destroying a vehicle. Completely immovable hydrants would be a liability in a litigious society!

macbear85 · Jul 12, 2009, 01:21 AM

I think fire hydrant art is dope and color shouldn't matter considering the color blind drive. The chief of police in my city 'turned a blind eye' to a lady who painted vines on the hydrant and electric box near her home. Why turn the blind eye, is there a law preventing the appearance change of a fire hydrant?

ApertureValue · Jul 12, 2009, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by macbear85

I think fire hydrant art is dope and color shouldn't matter considering the color blind drive. The chief of police in my city 'turned a blind eye' to a lady who painted vines on the hydrant and electric box near her home. Why turn the blind eye, is there a law preventing the appearance change of a fire hydrant?

Not that I feel one way or the other, but yes, there are local laws regarding fire hydrant coloring, etc. Ours here are required to be the pee-yellow that they are. Branson, which is about 30 minutes South of us, has dalmation colors on theirs, with light blue caps.

So, it's definitely up to what a local jurisdiction states is allowable.

OldManMac · Jul 12, 2009, 07:55 AM

I was a volunteer in the late 70s - early 80s, and the trucks were all red. We didn't have hydrants in that community, as it was out in the country. I don't recall seeing anything other than a red hydrant here in Michigan.

ghporter · Jul 12, 2009, 10:33 AM

Where did you volunteer? I lived in the Downriver Area growing up, and it was a very short drive into townships and then completely unincorporated areas-Brownstown Township, New Boston, and even tinier places. Fire protection? I had no clue about it in those areas; Flat Rock had a volunteer fire department at the time (and its own water system), which seemed to be adequate for the need.

0157988944 · Jul 12, 2009, 12:58 PM

Ours are all silver.

ApertureValue · Jul 12, 2009, 01:02 PM

I haven't seen too many cities actually abide by the NFPA recommended code, but it certainly makes for some interesting hydrant colors/decorations!

Rev-O · Jul 12, 2009, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by macbear85

I think fire hydrant art is dope and color shouldn't matter considering the color blind drive. The chief of police in my city 'turned a blind eye' to a lady who painted vines on the hydrant and electric box near her home. Why turn the blind eye, is there a law preventing the appearance change of a fire hydrant?

There are (I'd assume) almost always statutes in place about such things, and in most cases, the police have no say over it. Enforcement is ultimately up to the utility that owns the box or hydrant. The electrical box and hydrant are both property of the respective utilities and those utilities have ways of enforcing who does what with the utilities' property (regardless of police turning a blind eye) like discontinuation of service if the utility is not remunerated for repainting the electrical box.

Most places like uniformity in the appearance of their utilities. Hydrants are painted bright colors ostensibly for visibility and safety considerations. Electrical boxes, transformers, phone & cable peds, etc are painted a dull green because... I guess utilities like green

. Actually, it is partially because they want their stuff uniform and easily recognizable and I guess the green was picked because it is fairly unobtrusive.

Dork. · Jul 12, 2009, 04:11 PM

Here is the best Fire Department logo I've seen (the area actually is called "Pumpkin Hook"....)

And their trucks are orange!

Jul 12, 2009, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

It would seem to me that red would be the dumbest color imaginable to color a fire hydrant because everybody knows that fire is also red.

Last I checked fire was yellow and orange - sometimes blue if it's clean burning natural gas. I've never seen red fire.

OldManMac · Jul 12, 2009, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Where did you volunteer? I lived in the Downriver Area growing up, and it was a very short drive into townships and then completely unincorporated areas-Brownstown Township, New Boston, and even tinier places. Fire protection? I had no clue about it in those areas; Flat Rock had a volunteer fire department at the time (and its own water system), which seemed to be adequate for the need.

I volunteered in the giant metropolis of Alger, MI, about 170 miles north of the Detroit area. There were about 650 people in town and in the community of Forest Lake, which was part of Alger. I know the downriver area quite well (or did; I haven't lived there in 20 years), as the first house we bought after marriage was in Wyandotte, in 1972. My ex has relatives in Flat Rock, and we used to see them occasionally. We also lived in Trenton for a few years. I was also a volunteer police officer in 1973 - 1974, in Wyandotte.

besson3c · Jul 13, 2009, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by hayesk

Last I checked fire was yellow and orange - sometimes blue if it's clean burning natural gas. I've never seen red fire.

That's true, and I guess that makes sense. It wouldn't be comforting if people thought that their firetruck that was coming to save the day was also on fire!

torsoboy · Jul 13, 2009, 03:12 AM

All of the fire hydrants over here are red. Every one of them.

We had a guy back into a hydrant a couple of blocks away from our home a year ago, and it flooded the street for about 3 blocks. For the next week we had to drive through 2 inches of mud on the roads before they finally got the dirt all taken care of. The guy was driving very slow though... it didn't seem to be too difficult to break the pipe.

The rule for the hydrants around here is that they need to b 4 inches off the ground.

ghporter · Jul 13, 2009, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by OldManMac

I volunteered in the giant metropolis of Alger, MI, about 170 miles north of the Detroit area. There were about 650 people in town and in the community of Forest Lake, which was part of Alger. I know the downriver area quite well (or did; I haven't lived there in 20 years), as the first house we bought after marriage was in Wyandotte, in 1972. My ex has relatives in Flat Rock, and we used to see them occasionally. We also lived in Trenton for a few years. I was also a volunteer police officer in 1973 - 1974, in Wyandotte.

My dad went to Rosevelt HS and worked at Wyandotte Chemicals and then Penwalt for a LONG time. This IS on topic: he was on the fire brigade at both places. And my sister probably knows your ex's family; I think she knows about 90% of the people in Michigan!

Anyway, way out in the sticks, water access is a problem for fire fighting. But you'd think in actual towns with water systems that wouldn't be the case. Not always so. A volunteer firefighter has been charged with opening hydrants overnight on July 4 in two communities near here, dumping over 500,000 gallons of water total (one town's water supply was almost exhausted after over 400,000 gallons gushed out of the hydrant he opened). First off, this idiot is a firefighter and should know better. Second, nobody's been able to figure out what his point was, since he and his buddies didn't bother to hang around after he'd opened the hydrants...He's being charged with some pretty serious crimes, including reckless endangerment I think.

richwig83 · Jul 13, 2009, 08:17 AM

Ours are subterranean.. so they are probably just metal colour!

Oisín · Jul 13, 2009, 08:35 AM

Ours are all mailbox-coloured, just like the fire trucks.

(That means bright red)

Laminar · Jul 13, 2009, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by hayesk

Last I checked fire was yellow and orange - sometimes blue if it's clean burning natural gas. I've never seen red fire.

Burn some lithium chloride, calcium chloride, or strontium chloride.

ghporter · Jul 13, 2009, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Burn some lithium chloride, calcium chloride, or strontium chloride.

...or even iron oxide. Not as bright red, but definitely red.

ApertureValue · Jul 13, 2009, 12:12 PM

There are definitely some really beautiful colors of combustion. Just look at fireworks.

I really wish the fire trucks here were red, but now that I'm not working on them anymore, I'll just move where the trucks ARE red!

andi*pandi · Jul 13, 2009, 12:17 PM

I think ours are primary yellow. It's odd that I've never really paid attention! I did wonder why some fire trucks were lime green though.

ApertureValue · Jul 13, 2009, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

I think ours are primary yellow. It's odd that I've never really paid attention! I did wonder why some fire trucks were lime green though.

We would always tell the kids who asked during tours that our trucks just "weren't ripe yet." It always generated some lol's.

iranfromthezoo · Jul 14, 2009, 08:35 PM

As a full time firefighter the simple answer is it doesn't matter what color the hydrant is as long as water comes from it. We actually test our hydrants and paint them once a year. We do follow the NFPA GUIDELINE but that is just a guideline, each city has it's own policies. Like the two cities neighboring us paint every hydrant white because color doesn't mean anything except how much water it can flow. Flow in a industrial area or large commercial district is important.

Also every single one of our fire trucks are red. The history behind the red fire truck is actually because when fire engines first came out the red paint was the cheapest so the firemen painted with that. Most paid fire departments have a certain brand, color style and type of fire truck they, kind of how every Mac resembles a Mac. You want the same type truck for the entire city.

iranfromthezoo · Jul 14, 2009, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

Not that I feel one way or the other, but yes, there are local laws regarding fire hydrant coloring, etc. Ours here are required to be the pee-yellow that they are. Branson, which is about 30 minutes South of us, has dalmation colors on theirs, with light blue caps.

So, it's definitely up to what a local jurisdiction states is allowable.

Actually me and the guys on our truck had to go to a certain house every shift for 5 weeks to repaint a hydrant red because the idiot painted it green. I don't know if he got tired of the pissing match or ran out of green paint but he gave up. He also received a $500 fine.

ApertureValue · Jul 14, 2009, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo

Also every single one of our fire trucks are red. The history behind the red fire truck is actually because when fire engines first came out the red paint was the cheapest so the firemen painted with that. Most paid fire departments have a certain brand, color style and type of fire truck they, kind of how every Mac resembles a Mac. You want the same type truck for the entire city.

Unfortunately, our fire administration didn't care that we had the same brand of trucks...it was simply whomever was the lowest bidder a lot of the time, which gave us some horribly crappy apparatus every now and then. Plus, we had several different brands floating around the city, which further made it look piecemeal.

For a city of 156,206 with 13 stations and over 200 personnel, you'd think we'd have a pretty good stock of apparatus and some of the best gear around...but you'd be wrong. Some Chiefs will do a lot to please city administration.

ghporter · Jul 14, 2009, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by ApertureValue

Unfortunately, our fire administration didn't care that we had the same brand of trucks...it was simply whomever was the lowest bidder a lot of the time, which gave us some horribly crappy apparatus every now and then. Plus, we had several different brands floating around the city, which further made it look piecemeal.

For a city of 156,206 with 13 stations and over 200 personnel, you'd think we'd have a pretty good stock of apparatus and some of the best gear around...but you'd be wrong. Some Chiefs will do a lot to please city administration.

City administrators seldom understand things like "having all the fire trucks the same brand and model means fewer spare parts to stock and less extra training for maintenance folks" and so on. And Chiefs like to keep their jobs, so they do what "the boss" wants. Unless they're very, very good, very well connected, or have something on the administrators, they HAVE to do this. Whether it looks like it or not, Fire Chief is as political a position as Mayor.

ApertureValue · Jul 14, 2009, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

City administrators seldom understand things like "having all the fire trucks the same brand and model means fewer spare parts to stock and less extra training for maintenance folks" and so on. And Chiefs like to keep their jobs, so they do what "the boss" wants. Unless they're very, very good, very well connected, or have something on the administrators, they HAVE to do this. Whether it looks like it or not, Fire Chief is as political a position as Mayor.

Yes, without having gone into more of a tirade with my last post, you're exactly right. It's a staff position that serves as a figurehead. Everybody knows that, but it is a visceral blow to "the guys" (like me) when a former member of "the guys" is now your Chief and his morals, values and sense of buy-in is completely reversed or otherwise altered.

Nothing was more disheartening than to see a Captain or Fire Marshal promoted to Battalion Chief (where they're no longer in the firefighters union and have become a salaried, "exempt" employee) and lose all sense of what it was like to be in the stations doing the job. I know it is inevitable, no matter where you're working, but still disheartening.