[Kerrigan]

I like this ad in this thread:

The Elite Sugardaddie.com
Seen on DR PHIL! The Most Exclusive Sugar Daddy Dating Site on the Net.

[subego]

All I got was a lousy "learn effective counter-terror methods from those living it daily!"

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Comparing those kids to Islamic fundamentalists was...a bit much.

How so?

[art_director]

The Religious Right in America scares me more than Al Qaeda and cancer combined. They're doing more to change / control my rights than any other group seen in my lifetime. In my view they're America's Taliban. The only difference between, other than their 'god,' is the fact that they don't have the conviction to take up arms, instead they rely upon the children of the poor (a.k.a. US Military) to do their killing conquering for them. Like the Taliban in Afghanistan the RR attempts to define what is / is not acceptable in our country. I have several problems with that view.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by art_director 

The Religious Right in America scares me more than Al Qaeda and cancer combined. They're doing more to change / control my rights than any other group seen in my lifetime.(Please name those rights changed or controlled. I am always told to cite specific examples so please, do so.) In my view they're America's Taliban. The only difference between, other than their 'god,' is the fact that they don't have the conviction to take up arms, instead they rely upon the children of the poor (a.k.a. US Military) to do their killing conquering for them. Like the Taliban in Afghanistan the RR attempts to define what is / is not acceptable in our country. I have several problems with that view.

The Religious Left; Rev. Jesse Jackson, The Rev. Barry Lynde et al., have been more successful in changing things than the RR has been.

Prayer in school, nope, long gone.
Christmas vacation is now "Winter Holiday"
No Christmas Carols or plays in an increasing number of school districts
Easter vacation is now spring break
Kids getting written up for reading bibles during lunch break

This country was founded by people fleeing religious prosecution. Many of the first laws that were passed were laws guaranteeing freedom of religion.

This book chronicles the founding of the US on Judeo-Christian principles.
Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States - Google Book Search
Remember, the 1st amendment is about freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Prayer in school, nope, long gone.

If it is led by the school, as per the 1st amendment. Students can pray when not engaged in other scholastic activities.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Kids getting written up for reading bibles during lunch break

This is overzealous behavior that would not stand up were it brought to court, at least as far as I understand it. If you give me an example where this happened, it was challenged in court, and the challenge was dismissed, then maybe you have something. If you can prove me wrong, I'll get just as indignant about it as you.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Christmas vacation is now "Winter Holiday"
No Christmas Carols or plays in an increasing number of school districts
Easter vacation is now spring break

And these aren't rights. Go make an amendment if this is a problem for you.


Rights changed or controlled:

4th Amendment (warrantless wirertapping)
8th Amendment (torture)
Habeas Corpus

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

The Religious Left; Rev. Jesse Jackson, The Rev. Barry Lynde et al., have been more successful in changing things than the RR has been.

Prayer in school, nope, long gone.
Christmas vacation is now "Winter Holiday"
No Christmas Carols or plays in an increasing number of school districts
Easter vacation is now spring break
Kids getting written up for reading bibles during lunch break

This country was founded by people fleeing religious prosecution. Many of the first laws that were passed were laws guaranteeing freedom of religion.

This book chronicles the founding of the US on Judeo-Christian principles.
Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States - Google Book Search
Remember, the 1st amendment is about freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

I was not commenting on Jackson et. al. so I won't address. As for the RR's accomplishments, clarification is needed.

School prayer -- The most recent case was in 2000 -- Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe. The Supremes found that the school, in fact, had been helping to organize and sanction pre-football game Christian prayer. For that reason it lost. Also, the case started with named plaintiffs who later asked that their names be removed from the case because they were getting death threats. They were also being harassed -- by students and faculty of the school all because they didn't want to pray.

Partial birth abortion -- You don't call that a win for the Religious Right? Justices uphold ban on abortion procedure - CNN.com

Tell me about kids getting written up for reading Bibles -- Where? When? By whom? Where is it supported by the courts? If it's happening it's not legal, that much is for sure.

As far as calling Christmas Break and Easter Break Winter and Spring Break is correct and not illegal. That's an absurd point raised by the RR. They'd be better served to look at real problems rather than labels for time off.


You might be interested in James Toobin's 'The Nine: Inside the secret world of the Supreme Court.'

[art_director]

Originally Posted by subego 

If it is led by the school, as per the 1st amendment. Students can pray when not engaged in other scholastic activities.

You nailed it. One clarification is needed. The prayer must be led by students and cannot be organized, led or sanctioned by school administrators or faculty.

[art_director]

Here's another RR win from 1987:

Board of Airport Commissioners of The City of Los Angeles, et al. vs. Jews for Jesus
( Inc. Airport Commissioners v. Jews for Jesus )

In a nutshell, the Board of Airport Commissioners of The City of Los Angeles barred Jew for Jesus from distributing religious literature at the airport. The Supremes struck it down for violation of the First Amendment.

BTW, Jews for Jesus lawyer, Jay Alan Sekulow (Chief Counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice), won several RR cases that went before the Court. He won the rights for students to create Bible clubs in schools (again without faculty assistance) and he helped to establish the free speech rights of RR organizations.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Partial birth abortion -- You don't call that a win for the Religious Right? Justices uphold ban on abortion procedure - CNN.com

That is one third trimester procedure, which leaves first and second trimester procedures untouched.
Intact dilation and extraction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[subego]

Must have missed this Chongo, so I'll do it again.

Rights changed or controlled:

4th Amendment (warrantless wirertapping)
8th Amendment (torture)
Habeas Corpus

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

That is one third trimester procedure, which leaves first and second trimester procedures untouched.
Intact dilation and extraction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

True but not the point. The point is that the RR made progress with that ruling.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by subego 

Must have missed this Chongo, so I'll do it again.

Rights changed or controlled:

4th Amendment (warrantless wirertapping)
8th Amendment (torture)
Habeas Corpus

That 'bout sums it up. So far. Now that Alito and Roberts are on the bench it's a new game and who can guess what will happen. O'Connor was long a voice of reason for the conservative side of the bench. Has the baton been passed to Souter?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by subego 

Must have missed this Chongo, so I'll do it again.

Rights changed or controlled:

4th Amendment (warrantless wirertapping) governed by FISA (1978)

8th Amendment (torture) Torture is legal now?

Under the UN definition of torture making some feel bad can be defined as torture
On December 10, 1948 the United Nations General Assembly adopted, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). Article 5 states, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."[6]

Habeas Corpus Ah you must mean those at Gitmto
Military Commissions Act of 2006Passed by a (D) controlled congress
Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 signed by Bill Clinton

All of the above apply to non citizen combatants in the war on terror.
This is not the work of the RR, unless you believe they are part of the NWO crowd, Bilderberg Group/Trilateral Commission/Bohemian Grove Alex Jones type stuff.
List of Bilderberg attendees
hey, look who's at the top of the list!

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

governed by FISA (1978)

NSA warrantless surveillance controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Torture is legal now?

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Passed by a (D) controlled congress

Quick refresher...

2006 Senate:
55 Republicans
44 Democrats

2006 House
230 Republicans
201 Democrats

Originally Posted by Chongo 

All of the above apply to non citizen combatants in the war on terror.

Your proof?

Originally Posted by Chongo 

This is not the work of the RR

Yes. I missed that when I responded. It was the work of the current administration.

Now, what would you like me to do with the giant pile of bullshit you just shoveled out?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by subego 

if waterboarding has been defined as torture than it is illeagal

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On July 20, 2007, U.S. President George W. Bush signed an executive order banning torture during interrogation of terror suspects.[35]
Quick refresher...


2006 Senate:
55 Republicans
44 Democrats

2006 House
230 Republicans
201 Democrats

Sorry, my bad. 12 years of (R) control went buy so fast compared to 40+(D) years before it seem like they (D)s never lost control The (R)s lost control because after Bush took office they were spending like drunk liberals and he signed everything that came across his desk.

Your proof?

More like your proof. I keep hearing on Air America about abuses of the Patriot Act and warrantless wire taps but I have yet to hear them cite one case.

Yes. I missed that when I responded. It was the work of the current administration.

not very religious or right of center.

Now, what would you like me to do with the giant pile of bullshit you just shoveled out?

pile it next to your pile.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

On July 20, 2007, U.S. President George W. Bush signed an executive order banning torture during interrogation of terror suspects.[35]

So? As you said it was already illegal.

Hmm. Why would he ban something that is already illegal?

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Sorry, my bad. 12 years of (R) control went buy so fast compared to 40+(D) years before it seem like they (D)s never lost control The (R)s lost control because after Bush took office they were spending like drunk liberals and he signed everything that came across his desk.

Decent cleanup on aisle six.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

More like your proof. I keep hearing on Air America about abuses of the Patriot Act and warrantless wire taps but I have yet to hear them cite one case.

I didn't bring up the Patriot Act (though I could have). As far as the NSA goes, whether the NSA abused the authority given to them is irrelevant if there were no legal grounds to give them the authority in the first place.

Even if you think they had the authority, this still has nothing to do with whether our rights have been altered. Before, the FISA court acted as oversight to a warrantless wiretap. As we stand now, this isn't necessarily the case. How is that not an alteration?

Somewhat similarly with habeas corpus, whether there have been abuses is irrelevant. The issue centers around how in removing the right to go before a judge, you remove a person's ability to prove they are, in fact, a U.S. citizen. If they can whisk someone away, claim they are not a U.S. citizen, and therefore try them before a military tribunal, that is an erosion of our rights. They don't have to do it for the right to have been eroded, nor does an assessment of "this is completely improbable" somehow mean we actually do still have the right.

This is binary. If there is any means for the government to circumvent a right, you don't have the right anymore.

Maybe you think, considering the current geopolitical situation, this is okay. I disagree with you, but that's okay too. You don't have to justify it, I completely understand where you are coming from. Your position is just as valid as mine, we merely have different priorities.

But, and this is a huge pet peeve of mine, don't try and delude yourself (or other people) that we still have a right we don't have anymore.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

not very religious or right of center.

Hence me agreeing with you, and admitting my mistake. You know, pile of **** patrol.

[Apemanblues]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I think it's a response to these books.

Amazon.com: Help! Mom! There Are Liberals Under My Bed!: Books: Katharine DeBrecht,Jim Hummel

Amazon.com: Why Mommy Is a Democrat: Books: Jeremy Zilber,Yuliya Firsova

If you look at the Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought sections on Amazon it looks like people on both sides seem to be buying both books, which makes me think that most people (sane people) are adults buying them, not for children but rather as joke gifts for each other.

However, judging by the other books some people are also purchasing, many of them are complete asshats too.

[Shaddim]

Probably people buying them as collectibles.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by subego 

This is binary. If there is any means for the government to circumvent a right, you don't have the right anymore.

That would include the 2nd amendment, yes?

[peeb]

Of course. Just like the first. If Congress wants to make a law infringing on those rights, it should amend the 1st and 2nd to read the same way the 3rd does.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

That would include the 2nd amendment, yes?

yes

[UpQuark]

-->Originally Posted by Shaddim
-->Perhaps U.S. denominations seem to be "significantly tamer" because they were conceived during a time when mankind itself was becoming more civilized?

-->Or perhaps because there wasn't a state sponsored "us vs. them" mentality.

I think the constitution and the results of the civil war codified the modern USoA. That doesn't mean there weren't and are not issues. - The whole 'burning a cross' thing freaks me out... Waco was a debacle. The current US president talks directly to God.

I think the church and state separation keeps the anti-religious hegemony check in place... I firmly believe that if the US were to have a 'State' sanctioned religion, it would be in a much worse place than it is now. I refer to the silliness surrounding gays..

Of course, this is my opinion based on lots of coffee and reading some history books.

On the TOPIC book issue - I think it is more important that a child learn to reason. Thinking is too linear. Reasoning promotes logic and deduction. See number 2 below.

From the New Oxford American Dictionary:
Reason:
1) a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event
2) the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic

my 2 cents..